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Discussion Starter #1
Sent my old (40k miles) Daytona 650 in for a throttle body balance and valve clearance check at Fowler's Bristol a month or so ago. Immediately afterwards there is a terrible notchiness/hesitation between 5-6k rpm. I ignored it for a bit thinking it would smooth itself out. It's like at 5k rpm the throttle starts to roll itself off if I'm being steady, or, if I'm rolling the throttle on, it's very jerky. First of all, I replaced some of the coil plugs with the 675 coil plugs years ago (D600/650 has a problem where water will collect over cylinder 1/2 and slowly get past the seals). I had to cut some small holes in the airbox to get it to fit the taller coil plugs, but have never had an issue since.

As it's a bit of an older bike, they rang me up advising against doing the valve clearances and throttle body balancing as some of the bolts are seized and it would be difficult and time consuming to open up and get at (for the valve clearances presumably). The bike has never had a big service but has never had any issues so I say fine, will leave it as is. However, when picking up the bike they said they managed to balance the throttle bodies anyway, but had to drop the engine out to do so? (charged loads for labour, £70 an hour!) Anyway I went back again recently because of the new issues and they spent and charged another hour checking the throttle bodies and simply said 'we balanced the throttle bodies, that's all you asked us to do, not to check for any other issues. Would have to pay to inspect and find what the issues are. There are holes in the airbox and the wrong coil plugs are being used, so it's likely that'. I got hold of some vacuum gauges and balanced the bodies again myself (2 of them were slightly out) but this made no difference.

Can anyone point me in the right direction with regards to eliminating this notchiness. What could cause it? Can anything be moved out of place when dropping the engine out? The next thing I'm going to try is to swap the airbox and coil plugs over with my friend's stock D650, but I doubt this will fix anything. Engine response is nice and smooth outside of the 5-6k rpm band. They mentioned perished inlet rubbers but again, all was fine before having the bike serviced.
 

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My thoughts exactly. I think you've been had, or at the very least spun a line of bullsh!t. The 650 Daytona has a very sophisticated dual butterfly intake arrangement but balancing it and checking valve clearances is no more difficult than the normal 600cc engine introduced with the TT600.

Doesn't help with your problem which seems entirely down to something they did when they had your bike.

Dealers seem to love loading the 'latest' map to the ECU even when there is no reason to do so. It's possible they loaded a newer map that is blighted with the flat spot or hesitation you are now experiencing.

I understood Fowlers in the UK to be one of the more reputable main dealers. Try talking to someone else there about the problem, not the person who told you the things you've outlined here.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks Terry. Will call back up after trying with the stock parts first so I have something to go on. I did also upload the stock map and then also the aftermarket can map from TuneECU but it made little difference...
 

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Ah, good, you're able to use Tune ECU. If you've been able to go back to your original map (which you've been happy with for quite some time) then it must be something else they've done whilst the dealer had it.

As I said your bike has a sophisticated dual butterfly setup. Perhaps there's some binding occuring. I'd be removing the airbox and looking at the throttle linkages but difficult if you want the dealer to attend to the matter because as soon as you touch it they'll say not their problem anymore.

I was looking for a picture of the intake arrangement and found this:

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/2005-Triumph-Daytona-650-Throttle-Bodies-Body-Set-/401514248793

Not suggesting you need to swop yours out but was astonished to see the whole assembly for $27.00!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I managed to chat on the phone to them today. The engine wasn't actually dropped out. It would have been to check valve clearances, but one bolt was seized and one was bent (through crash mushroom) so they advised against it.

With regards to the throttle bodies, they said that that during servicing, they would balance them, then do a road test, and find that they would be out of balance again. They attempted this a few times. Would anyone have an idea of what could possibly cause this? I.e. that the bodies would unbalance themselves. Would perished inlet rubbers / holes drilled in the airbox be the culprit?

I did try to balance the bodies using vacuum guages but to no avail. I replaced the airbox and coil plugs with stock parts and the notchiness moved very slightly in the rev range, but is still very annoying. I have not yet tried to balance them again yet, would like to have a more informed approach as it sort of feels I'm trying things at random at the moment.
When balancing, as I have the cheap analog guages, the needles bounce around a lot. I squeezed the hoses with a g-clamp to smooth out the readings, is this the right approach?

Finally where do the inlet rubbers go? Is this between the throttle bodies and the engine? (number 14 ? here: https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/10499/daytona-600-650/throttles-injectors-and-fuel-rails). I'm assuming 4 new ones and associated o-rings are used. Anything I should be aware of before attempting replacements?
 

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When you said "I did also upload the stock map and then also the aftermarket can map from TuneECU but it made little difference..." did you load the exact same map you've had on the bike (for up to 40k miles) that you were happy with before taking it to the dealer?

.....Would perished inlet rubbers / holes drilled in the airbox be the culprit?
Perished inlet rubbers? Not quite sure which 'inlet rubbers' your talking about but they certainly won't be helping.

Holes drilled in the airbox? Again not sure what you're talking about but this suggests some rudimentary 'tuning'. Are you sure it didn't have a custom map?

I replaced the airbox and coil plugs with stock parts........
You're losing me now.

When balancing, as I have the cheap analog guages, the needles bounce around a lot. I squeezed the hoses with a g-clamp to smooth out the readings, is this the right approach?
If your gauge set doesn't have throttling valves then, yes.

Finally where do the inlet rubbers go?
Sorry you've lost me completely.
 

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The throttle bodies have to be sealed to the intake, but that should be a solid mount. The rubber boots between the airbox and throttle bodies should be sealed and in good shape. Likewise, all the vacuum tubes have to be connected and in good shape. I don't understand why throttle bodies would fall out of synch after a short test ride. That indicates some kind of mechanical slippage somewhere to me or an on/off leak somewhere. The leak is also a physical, not electronic problem.

As far as the valves, I would figure out how to get the seized bolt out and replace the bent bolt. Failing to check the valves will eventually create problems.

One last thing, a failing throttle position sensor causes all kinds of stumbles, surges, and rideability problems. It is something to check.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Sorry, rambling a bit here. To clarify the points raised:

- Before taking it to the dealer, the bike was running fine, and had the Triumph aftermarket can tune installed. Afterwards, I tried the stock tune, and then the aftermarket can one again, but these made little to no difference. At no point has the bike had a custom map.

- I'm not sure what inlet rubbers the dealers mean either, but I'm assuming they mean the ones that the throttle bodies sit on? My thoughts here is that being perished, they are likely cracked and not forming a complete seal, but again, was never an issue prior to this.

- A while ago I replaced some of the coil plugs with those from the daytona 675. As these are slightly taller, the airbox no longer fits properly. I then cut some holes in the airbox so that they fit (a mod I had seen on daytona600.org years ago). Again, had no issues after this.

- To eliminate the modified air box and longer coil plugs as possible causes of the said issues, I put everything back to stock. I.e. an intact airbox and original coil plugs from another daytona 650. I then balanced the throttle bodies using my cheap vacuum gauge, but still have the same issues.

- Regarding where the inlet rubbers 'go', I just want to make sure I'm looking at the right parts before I order anything.

The only thing I didn't check was the throttle position sensor, which is now next on my list.

Thanks for your help guys! Will get to the bottom of this....
 

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Okay. Here's my considered opinion.

Lets give the dealer the benefit of the doubt and presume they've done nothing wrong.

They balance the throttle bodies only for them to go out of balance again after a test ride.

The inlet rubbers you're referring to are these : Pt # T1244008 RUBBER. T/BODY TO CYL HEAD. They go (as per the part description) between the throttle body assembly and the inlet ports on the cylinder head. You suggest they are perished. If they are, this usually presents as spiderlike cracking that appears on the surface of the rubber. These spidery cracks have a habit of closing up and opening up slightly differently every time the engine is run. This might be what's happening and what's causing the balance to go out of sync after each rebalance. They are relatively inexpensive. Buy new ones together with 4 new o-rings Pt # T3600084 O'-RING.39.45ID X 1.78DIA.

Take care fitting them. I'm not sure how prone they are to distortion so don't overtighten the torx screws holding the inlet rubbers in place. Put the lightest smear of grease on the o-rings.

Fit the airbox ensuring the spring loaded rubber collars that push fit on the top of the throttle bodies do not fold over at any point. A smear of grease on the inside of the collars will help. (I'm presuming it's just a push fit system like the 955/1050 triples)

Assemble the rest of the airbox. Rebalance the throttle bodies.

Using TuneECU or similar check the operation of the TPS as Will suggests.

If you want you can remove the sometimes troublesome little o-ring on the TPS itself. This has caused a number of Triumph owners some weird issues although I've never experienced it myself. Apparently it can be removed and discarded completely.

Let us know how you go.
 

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You should also check ALL the various rubber hoses for cracks and splits. They're essential to proper running of the engine and are so cheap it doesn't hurt to replace them all. Change one at a time so you don't lose track of where they go.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Now fixed.

Tried new inlet rubbers and then a rebalance, but they made no difference. They did definitely need replacing though...

It turns out that the primary and secondary throttle position sensors were both quite a way off, and also the ISCV gap was about twice what it should have been. After adjusting those everything is now back to normal.

In other news my Daytona which had electrical faults has been rectified... kind of, it got stolen. But insurance paid out and I got another, which annoyingly has the same hesitation issues, just in a lower rev range. Waiting on parts before I do this all over again.





photo5789464608061370946.jpg photo5789464608061370945.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #16
That's a couple days after it was stolen, they used it to rob a petrol station. Was parked outside my house in Bath, they were joyriding it around Bristol over the following few days. At one point I went looking in Bristol and it shot past me but was too quick for me to do anything in my car :cautious:

Then a week later another yellow daytona 650 was stolen from Mangotsfield. I'm on a Facebook group called stolen motorcycle recovery bristol, and sadly it seems that a bike gets pinched every other day. A handful get recovered, others are binned, burnt, or dumped in fields or rivers.
 

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Jeez, seeing it go past you a couple of days later would've been hard to take. How the hell do they know which wires to hotwire the ignition? We have difficulty enough on the forum trying to solve members starting and electrical problems.:unsure:
 
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