Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

1 - 20 of 130 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
516 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
POINT OF INTEREST - Before watching this video and joining the discussion, let's not have a repeat of what happened on another thread I started that recently got closed by the mods.

1- Keep the discussion on topic (motorcycles, not mobile phones)
2- No name calling (which may actually be a forum rule)
3- Try not to be offensive with your comments (Assume that whoever reads your comment may not be from the same country/culture/ethnic background as you).

Thanks. And enjoy the video😊👍🏾

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
516 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I hate to be captain obvious but I’ve known this for years. Great video though!!!
It seems everyone and their dog knows this. All except for the decision makers at Harley Davidson.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,207 Posts
What is there to be said? It's kinda common knowledge that the current people running Harley don't get what the market wants. They will milk their aging and dying customer base till it runs dry, and then go the way of the Dodo.

Triumph races, they supply motors to MotoGP... they sell adventure bikes, and sportbikes, while still offering nostalgia with their classic bikes.

There is nothing wrong with selling heritage... But if that's ALL you sell, your days are numbered...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,308 Posts
I’ve enjoyed every bike I’ve owned. From my first to my last Yamaha, my first to my present Harley, and the two Triumphs I have now. I wish I could say that the Triumph dealers treated their customers better than the Harley dealers, but that hasn’t been the case where I live. There’s just something special about riding a Triumph. At least for me.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
182 Posts
I ride a 2010 fatboy and a Rocket X. Both bikes modified. All the work done by yours truly. What is going on with Harley is a shame. They have their faults but are still a icon in the motorcycle world. I just turned 62 yesterday and my thoughts are part of a dying breed. Then again do not own a pair of skinny jeans either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
461 Posts
I ride a 2010 fatboy and a Rocket X. Both bikes modified. All the work done by yours truly. What is going on with Harley is a shame. They have their faults but are still a icon in the motorcycle world. I just turned 62 yesterday and my thoughts are part of a dying breed. Then again do not own a pair of skinny jeans either.
Haven't been able to get into that sort of jeans for many years.😂😂😂
Harley are acting like a lot of British industry back in the 1970's, they will fail if they carry on the way they are now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
149 Posts
"Harley are acting like a lot of British industry back in the 1970's, they will fail if they carry on the way they are now."

So conventional received wisdom is that it was not entirely the fault of the British bike industry. At the end of World War II the US had only high functioning economy. All the other war participants were more or less broke. The Marshall Plan flooded the non-Soviet Union economies with US dollars, and in particular Japan and West Germany - which were deliberately built up as part of the US Cold War containment strategy. There was rather less Marshall dollars for the UK. Wartime rationing in the UK didn't end the mid-50s.

So Triumph didn't have the capital to invest in new factories or innovate the way the Japanese did.

Sochiro Honda said he never intended or expected to compete with larger displacement British motorcycles. Honda started with small, easy to use motorcycles (e.g., started by turning a key.) But with thier success with small bikes they kept making them bigger, which lead to CB750.

Triumph did try to innovate (Trident among others - and would love to have an old Trident) but never had the capital. And as both videos pointed out, Triumph didn't get help from a government.

Harley always had access to capital but kept making short sighted decisions. But then they are not unique at that. Why didn't Sears become Amazon? Why didn't Kodak or Xerox become Apple? All companies whose technology and markets positioned them to be next big things.



Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
382 Posts
It really is a shame, as the bikes with M8 engines are actually rather good - my last purchase came down to a decision between a Triumph Street Scrambler and the Harley Street Bob. It was a close call, the new bikes are comfortable, handle nicely, brake effectively, have enough go and are nicely built.

The big change has been the move to liquid cooling (oil/water) and simplified cams/engine internals.

This is something that HD resisted for years, the consequence of which was that they had to massively limit air intake and exhaust so that the bike as a whole would make it through ever-tightening noise regulations. Without opening these both up, the bikes would hardly run, and hence the fact that virtually all HD bikes were fitted with noisy/illegal exhausts at delivery or the first service.

With water/oil cooling, fuel injection and the freer flowing stock exhausts that the quieter engine allowed, the M8 bikes actually run nicely out of the crate - no need for a stage one other than to annoy the neighbours.

Where I think they do go wrong is dressing the bikes up slightly differently and selling at vastly different price points. The Sportster runs from £8,900 for the base 883 up to £10,500 for the priciest 1200 which makes sense as they are all basically the same, but the Softail runs from £12,300 to £19,000 for bikes that are again basically the same. That doesn't make sense, especially as in the middle of the range there are higher spec bikes that cost less than lower spec bikes.I fancied a Breakout but there was no way I'd pay nearly £7,000 more than the base model for it.

I fully understand what HD are doing - simplifying the ranges and concentrating on their current core market in the US while they try and stabilise. They are not making money overseas because of significant tariffs and their manufacturing costs are higher because of Trumps tariffs on raw material imports

Triumph have been doing a better job at covering a range of styles and rider ages, though I worry that they are trying to mimic Harley's approach in some ways with extensive apparel ranges (I own lots of Triumph t-shirts, I'll be honest) and introducing an extensive accessory catalogue.Not to mention expensive special editions like the Bond Scrambler...

Triumph parts prices have become eye wateringly expensive too and there's not much difference in accessory prices compared with HD either.

Triumph need to be careful
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,207 Posts
Harleys cost more because of US unions and labor costs. Tariffs aren't helping, but we saw this in the 80's with auto manufacturers...

At one time, it cost $77 per hour to make an average US car. It cost Toyota $45 per hour to make a car, and the Toyota was a higher quality car! Why would you pay more money for an inferior quality car, just because it was made here?

In most businesses, labor is the largest expense to a company. That's why so many jobs got shipped overseas. US Labor costs meant that our products couldn't compete on a cost basis with stuff coming out of Asia...

That's why the minimum wage argument is such an issue here. Those that want to just ramp it up to $15 an hour, which would make you have to take the people who already were at that mark because they worked there for several years and worked up to that... and so those folks are gonna expect to be bumped to $20 or whatever... These folks fail to see that it will drive up the costs of goods and services to consumers... So while some people might make a bit more money, the cost of most of the things that they buy will also go up, so did they really get ahead?

No. In fact, some might end up losing their jobs as a business owner says "fuggit" and replaces his cashiers with iPads or whatever... The inconvenient truth, is that some jobs simply are not WORTH $30k a year plus benefits.

Harley pays pretty well and that labor cost gets lumped into the cost of the product. That they also have a huge dealer network that costs a fortune to maintain as part of their "lifestyle brand" image, adds to that as well...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,014 Posts
Gotta give the video props, but he hasn't checked parts prices between Triumph and HD.

$90 for a plastic Triumph Bonneville mirror made in China and $33.99 for a metal Sportster mirror.
$83.73 for A triumph Bonneville rider foot peg and $7.49 for a Sportster rider foot peg.

Triumph NEEDS to be watching this video... it may be their future.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
516 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Triumph parts prices have become eye wateringly expensive too and there's not much difference in accessory prices compared with HD either.
Does anyone think if the prices for official Triumph parts were more reasonable people would buy them rather them getting aftermarket things from companies like Motone, British Customs, Bellacorse, Norman Hyde etc?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,207 Posts
Gotta give the video props, but he hasn't checked parts prices between Triumph and HD.

$90 for a plastic Triumph Bonneville mirror made in China and $33.99 for a metal Sportster mirror.
$83.73 for A triumph Bonneville rider foot peg and $7.49 for a Sportster rider foot peg.

Triumph out to be watching this video... it may be their future.
Same can be said for Ducati, and they are doing fine.

I don't mind paying a premium for a premium brand, or premium quality. Triumph is a premium brand and sure, their parts are expensive. But they have a very diverse product line to appeal to multiple markets and buyers... Harley, doesn't. They are a one-trick pony and while they have been successful with it, that won't last forever...

having all your eggs in one basket, is never a good long term strategy in an ever-changing world...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,014 Posts
Does anyone think if the prices for official Triumph parts were more reasonable people would buy them rather them getting aftermarket things from companies like Motone, British Customs, Bellacorse, Norman Hyde etc?
Maybe, but sometimes you have to have an OEM part. When a foot peg for a Ducati 821 Monster is less than half the price of a foot peg for an air cooled T100 Triumph better wake up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
516 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Maybe, but sometimes you have to have an OEM part.
Which ones? Just curious so I can start saving now for when I need to get one in the future?

Also, I know the video says that Triumph is doing well with their diverse range, I was looking on a Triumph dealership website recently and a large percentage of the bikes are variations of the Bonneville platform. I was surprised there weren't more sports bikes on offer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
382 Posts
Does anyone think if the prices for official Triumph parts were more reasonable people would buy them rather them getting aftermarket things from companies like Motone, British Customs, Bellacorse, Norman Hyde etc?
It depends on the parts.

People will buy from elsewhere if they want to customise their bike to make it different from everyone else's, but simple stock items are daft.

A plastic headlight for the SS is nearly £500, a pair of rear shocks is more expensive than the accessory Fox shocks that Triumph assert are a significant upgrade (so why not make the bike cheaper by fitting them as standard?).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,014 Posts
It depends on the parts.

People will buy from elsewhere if they want to customise their bike to make it different from everyone else's, but simple stock items are daft.

A plastic headlight for the SS is nearly £500, a pair of rear shocks is more expensive than the accessory Fox shocks that Triumph assert are a significant upgrade (so why not make the bike cheaper by fitting them as standard?).
Because Triumph makes more money manufacturing, or contracting for the manufacture of, the shocks than they would make buying them from FOX if FOX could provide the quantity just in time that Triumph required.

Manufacturing in the aftermarket is a whole different universe than OEM manufacturing.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
182 Posts
Triumph invested heavily into the Bonneville platform. Objective was to offer a bike in the mid range that not only performed well but look good and be easy to ride. They discontinued a few bikes and spent their money and time developing a bike that appeals to new riders and advertised in that direction. They did good for the time being. Indian motorcycle is the one to watch. They have the market covered very well. I'm in the market for a touring motorcycle. Harley is out. The new gold-wing is out. Yamaha and the transcontinental is out. BMW is out. They all cost to much for what you are getting. Now if Triumph was to build a real touring bike based on the new rocket engine i would have bought it yesterday. That is not going to happen. Indian road master dark horse is not cheap around $30,000 but it offers just enough gizmos without over doing it to appeal to my generation. Sharp looking bike but not overdone with gizmos that compensate for lack of riding experience. The company listens to their customers and each year get closer and closer to what the older market is looking for but at the same time all of their mid range bikes are top performers. I have never owned a Indian motorcycle but Like very much what i see and the direction the company is going in . Triumph on the other hand has gone down a dead end road.
 
1 - 20 of 130 Posts
Top