[Programr]

This has turned into much more of a saga than it should have. Bike = 02 bonnie, no snorkel, paper filter, TORs, rejetted (see below).

I've had a plaguing miss since getting my 02 bonnie in 05. Tried all sorts of things to fix it, rejetting, idle adjustment, running a little rich, thinking that it was lean missing. Last june, I picked up a new coil after doing some reading here.

New battery and new coil seemed like it helped, but ultimately it was back to occasionally missing.

My intake boots were getting worn and cracked, so I picked up new ones and new plugs.

Prior to install of the above, bike is running great except for the idle miss. went for a ride with my girl on the back and the bike died on the freeway. Just died, no surging, no popping, just no get up and go. All the lights were on, all fuses good. Got a tow home (thank you AMA roadside).

No spark. Figured the new coil failed. Purchased a second coil. No fix. Still no spark.

Took this time in the garage to pull the carbs and replace the intake boots and spark plugs.

Read more. Learned about the know pick-up coil gap issue. The incorrect gap was probably causing my missing issue all these years. The pick-up coil resistance tested fine. But rather than throwing down $200 on a new ignitor, I figured the cheaper option of changing the pick-up coil was a better idea. Did the install, set the gap around .76mm. No fix and now own two good pick-up coils. (wasted $100, grr).

Purchased Procom ignitor. Installed Friday, now I have spark. Thought I was done. Put the bike back together (cut a hole in the seat pan). Nada, not even a sputter or a misfire pop.

Starter works great, strong turn over, but no start. as mentioned, new MotoBatt MBTX12U battery. keeping it on a Battery Tender Jr. during all the testing to keep it topped off.

Found this morning that the idle adjuster was no longer touching the throttle linkage, so it wasn't keeping the butterfly valves open at all during start up. adjusted to touching plus another couple of turns. no start.

Engine is acting as air pump, so the valves are opening and closing, so the timing chain isn't broken.

I get spark with both the old and new spark plugs.

The procom unit should be set to 1 for my stock part number. no good. tried all other numbers. no good. tried installing a couple of the downloadable procom maps and trying them on 0-9. no good.

thought perhaps fixing the intake boots sealed a possible air leak, so i'd be running rich with pilot jets size 45. i put in next size down pilot jets (42) with one turn out. no start. haven't tried smaller main jets, haven't looked back to see how much the main jet affects ignition (probably not much). don't remember which mains i have in there (120s?). stock bonnie needle.

i don't have smaller pilot jets than 42, so i tried starting with the air filter out to lean out the mixture. no change.

tried jumping the kickstand safety switch. no change.

no fuel filter to get clogged, fuel delivery is good, no kinked hose. bowls are filling, no indication that the floats are damaged or sinking. i'm not forgetting to turn the petcock on.

I can smell gas on the plugs, so fuel is getting into the cylinder. I think i've been able to flood it by opening the throttle while running the starter motor, so we've got fuel, air and spark.

I've tried starts with choke on or off. no change.

i don't have any friends with bonnies/thrux otherwise I would love to switch in a working ignitor to test whether the Procom unit i received is bad. Anyone in San Francisco feel like swinging by, I'd appreciate it.

took the top off one carb, slide, needle, etc. looked fine. didn't bother to look at the other.

Open to ideas. I feel like I've done everything right. Other than occasional miss at idle, bike was running great, ignitor failed, no spark = dead bike. Replaced ignitor, coil, pick-up coil, spark plugs, intake boots, got spark back = but no start.

Only possibilities I can think of:
(1) procom ignitor is bad and timing is off enough that ignition can't happen (brand new unit, not very probable, but impossible to test);
(2) some fix has drastically thrown off the A/F mixture and i'm either too rich or too lean to start;
(3) something got jostled loose in the carbs while off the bike, perhaps a port is clogged, or the choke is malfunctioning.

i really don't want to pull the carbs back off the bike for a cleaning as there was no fuel issue prior to the ignitor dying, but i feel like i'm out of other options. wasted three weeks of perfect riding weather. at the end of the line and am starting to fantasize about pulling her out on the street and torching her. get ignition one way or another. i'd rather no go to jail so i'm soliciting constructive input.

again, anyone in SF who wouldn't mind swinging by to let me try their working ignitor (pre-EFI years), i'd appreciate it.

Alec

 

[ivar]

never heard of it before on these engines, but I've seen on snowmobile motors that the flywheel key has broken, allowing the flywheel to slip on the taper and throwing the timing way off.
To check, pull the timing cover (can be done without purging oil,if bike is leaned over.)
Verify that pistons are at tdc at the same time as the flywheel mark

 

[Programr]

of course, a half hour after posting, a ray of light. the bike fired up and then took off frankenbike style. i turned it off to wheel it outside to run it. then it wouldn't start. called and talked to my pops and figured it out. there was actually a clue in my post above.

do you see it? i didn't.




ok - spoiler alert.




turned out that when taking the carbs off to put the boots on, one of the throttle cables was pulled out of whack and ended up tight. it wasn't allowing the throttle to spring all the way closed so the carbs were letting too much air in killing the mixture. the clue was that the idle adjustment screw was no longer touching the throttle body. it wasn't touching because the cable wasn't allowing the throttle to close. i assumed it was the idle adjuster that had moved, not the throttle, and i was wrong.

adjusted the throttle cable. hit the starter. bam, started right up. got warm and died when i took the choke off. i've messed with so many things that, at this point, it is going to take me awhile to get the A/F mixture sorted back out and the carbs balanced once she'll idle off choke. but those are only details.

i'm going to post an update on the Bella Corse coils thread. i fell victim to some less than complete info on testing coils on our bike. the stated resistance on the aftermarket coils isn't probative of whether they are good or not. my secondary resistance is way below what is listed and the coil works just fine. luckily, Michael was great to work with and exchanged my perfectly good coil for another perfectly good coil. he didn't have to do that and i give him big props and thanks for working with me.

 

[ivar]

glad you got it sorted out
can be very frustrating, trying "everything" to no avail - but then the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you finally figure it all out is pretty comforting too

 

[Derby Boy]

See, you should talk to your Dad more often. Old farts often have the simple answer.
Glad your up and going again, albeit a little lighter in the wallet.

 

[Programr]

still struggling

i haven't had any luck getting her back into running condition.

as mentioned in the first post, she fired up and ran for a bit on sunday. put her on the charger, tried again on wed and after awhile of hard starting, she finally started. balanced the carbs but she seemed to be running too lean on 42 pilot jets. put 45s in, and she ran ok until she got up to operating temp while riding around the block, then seemed to be running way too rich and would die at idle.

couple of days later, put the 42s back in. no start. pulled the plugs several times and they seemed wet, also the ambient temp was much higher than the last time she ran. figured the 42s must be too big and that replacing the intake boots may have sealed a long term air leak.

ordered and received 40s. put them in this morning. no love. she sounds like she wants to start every now and again, but only with the choke off and with the a/f screw at 1/2 turn to 1 turn. she even ran weakly for about 10 seconds, but died when i tried to raise the idle via the adjustment screw.

i am so close to starting but it just won't stick. it also bugs me that she will only try when the choke is off. before all of this, i always needed the choke on full to get her started. 40s are the stock pilots, so it doesn't make any sense to go lower.

i hate to take the bowls off yet again, but the only thing i can think to do is go back to the stock settings and the only piece left to change is the main jet. i think i have 120s in there now and IIRC i think the smaller ones i have are 115s. i didn't think the mains had much impact on the idle/starting circuit on these carbs, but i could be wrong?

 

[Lasermax]

I was thinking spark plug wires. There's just no way that bike wouldn't start due to your mixture being off, even by a lot. Squirting some starting fluid in the carb inlets, even with the tank off and no gas in the carbs, I can fire a bike right up and have it run. And repeated coils going bad? Highly unlikely.

 

[Programr]

Riddle me this..

Still no luck.

Pulled the carbs again, gave them a good clean. Found that the fuel filter on the carb intake was gummed up. Otherwise, cleaned out the carbs, everything but the deaccel butterfly valve. Didn't find any other issues, figured the blocked filter was my problem and was pretty excited.

Also pulled the petcock out of the tank to clean any accumulated gunk (looked like the paint that's slowly come off from under the gas cap). Either the main fuel filter had vibrated off at some point or it popped off when i pulled out the petcock assembly. took an hour to fish it out of the tank. cleaned everything really well, put it all back together.

Reassembled the bike Sat. Same deal, sounds like it wants to start, but won't.

Pulled the Procom ignitor, reprogramed it with 1 degree advance at 0 RPM sloping up to 3 deg adv at 3k rmp. She fired up reluctantly with 1/8 choke. I was then able to pull the choke out to 90% and she ran like gangbusters, clearly craving a richer mixture. Put the choke in and she would putter and putt and then die. Seemed like the 40s were too small and she wants bigger pilots. Happy that she ran, i quit for the day.

Yesterday AM, put the 42s in. No love. Put the 40s back in, no love.

I'm really suspecting the Procom unit as the culprit here. I don't have a Gill unit to switch out to test. I think i've read every thread on here mentioning the word Procom and many others have had hard starting issues. However, I'm not finding that many people are posting successful fixes. I'm getting spark, so I'm not suspect of the coil, pickup coil, new plugs, or HT wires. The fact that she's started a few times supports this.

I would welcome input from anyone who has successfully sorted out their Procom unit! I've tried with the TPS sensor plugged in and unplugged at 1 degree adv. I'm going to switch back to 0 degree adv and TPS sensor out, see if that helps. Then I'll try retarding 1 degree, TPS on and off, see if that works.

I realize that purchasing a new Gill unit may be the ultimate solution, so suggestions of trashing the Procom and purchasing a Gill unit modified by Pieman are duly noted and not really what i'm looking for. (Seriously, i've read all the threads.) I've already put so much time and $$ into this bike over the past month, i really want to make it work with what i have.

Really hoping my starter doesn't fail during all of this. I'm going easy on her, but its already 10 years old. Also hope i don't give myself a stroke or drive off my girlfriend dealing with this frustration.

 

[Gummi]

A question to this old thread.

How did you solve this?
I just bought a procom igniter (the original one only gives spark on one cylinder). Now I have spark on both but the bike isn´t starting.
With the old igniter at least one cylinder started..

/Martin

Still no luck.

Pulled the carbs again, gave them a good clean. Found that the fuel filter on the carb intake was gummed up. Otherwise, cleaned out the carbs, everything but the deaccel butterfly valve. Didn't find any other issues, figured the blocked filter was my problem and was pretty excited.

Also pulled the petcock out of the tank to clean any accumulated gunk (looked like the paint that's slowly come off from under the gas cap). Either the main fuel filter had vibrated off at some point or it popped off when i pulled out the petcock assembly. took an hour to fish it out of the tank. cleaned everything really well, put it all back together.

Reassembled the bike Sat. Same deal, sounds like it wants to start, but won't.

Pulled the Procom ignitor, reprogramed it with 1 degree advance at 0 RPM sloping up to 3 deg adv at 3k rmp. She fired up reluctantly with 1/8 choke. I was then able to pull the choke out to 90% and she ran like gangbusters, clearly craving a richer mixture. Put the choke in and she would putter and putt and then die. Seemed like the 40s were too small and she wants bigger pilots. Happy that she ran, i quit for the day.

Yesterday AM, put the 42s in. No love. Put the 40s back in, no love.

I'm really suspecting the Procom unit as the culprit here. I don't have a Gill unit to switch out to test. I think i've read every thread on here mentioning the word Procom and many others have had hard starting issues. However, I'm not finding that many people are posting successful fixes. I'm getting spark, so I'm not suspect of the coil, pickup coil, new plugs, or HT wires. The fact that she's started a few times supports this.

I would welcome input from anyone who has successfully sorted out their Procom unit! I've tried with the TPS sensor plugged in and unplugged at 1 degree adv. I'm going to switch back to 0 degree adv and TPS sensor out, see if that helps. Then I'll try retarding 1 degree, TPS on and off, see if that works.

I realize that purchasing a new Gill unit may be the ultimate solution, so suggestions of trashing the Procom and purchasing a Gill unit modified by Pieman are duly noted and not really what i'm looking for. (Seriously, i've read all the threads.) I've already put so much time and $$ into this bike over the past month, i really want to make it work with what i have.

Really hoping my starter doesn't fail during all of this. I'm going easy on her, but its already 10 years old. Also hope i don't give myself a stroke or drive off my girlfriend dealing with this frustration.

 

[Programr]

Martin - Sadly, after weeks of frustration, I eventually gave up on the Procom unit and sourced a relatively cheap OEM replacement ignitor on ebay. plugged in the oem and the bike fired right up.

i think i'm still having some air leak issues or maybe a lingering electrical issue. she runs great at spead, but has intermittent issues idling when hot. also, there's a hesitation when pulling from start that i think is fuel starvation. i've been trying to RTV up what appear to be leaks around my airbox intake boots, but at this point i think i'm probably just going to give up on the airbox and install pods. if for no other reason, than to eliminate intake side air leaks as a culprit.

i'll try the procom unit again once i feel like she's running smooth. but in general, i regret the purchase. the value of the time i wasted trying to get it to work greatly outweighs what would have been the cost on a OEM unit. which i ended up buying anyway.

that being said, i really hope you have better luck thank i had. if you make progress, i'd be very interested to hear what worked for you!

 

[vitesse]

Martin - Sadly, after weeks of frustration, I eventually gave up on the Procom unit and sourced a relatively cheap OEM replacement ignitor on ebay. plugged in the oem and the bike fired right up.

i think i'm still having some air leak issues or maybe a lingering electrical issue. she runs great at spead, but has intermittent issues idling when hot. also, there's a hesitation when pulling from start that i think is fuel starvation. i've been trying to RTV up what appear to be leaks around my airbox intake boots, but at this point i think i'm probably just going to give up on the airbox and install pods. if for no other reason, than to eliminate intake side air leaks as a culprit.

i'll try the procom unit again once i feel like she's running smooth. but in general, i regret the purchase. the value of the time i wasted trying to get it to work greatly outweighs what would have been the cost on a OEM unit. which i ended up buying anyway.

that being said, i really hope you have better luck thank i had. if you make progress, i'd be very interested to hear what worked for you!

My 06 Scrambler igniter failed at 8000 miles, I bought a Procom, it's been brilliant. Procom will exchange it if purchased new.

 

[Gummi]

Martin - Sadly, after weeks of frustration, I eventually gave up on the Procom unit and sourced a relatively cheap OEM replacement ignitor on ebay. plugged in the oem and the bike fired right up.

i think i'm still having some air leak issues or maybe a lingering electrical issue. she runs great at spead, but has intermittent issues idling when hot. also, there's a hesitation when pulling from start that i think is fuel starvation. i've been trying to RTV up what appear to be leaks around my airbox intake boots, but at this point i think i'm probably just going to give up on the airbox and install pods. if for no other reason, than to eliminate intake side air leaks as a culprit.

i'll try the procom unit again once i feel like she's running smooth. but in general, i regret the purchase. the value of the time i wasted trying to get it to work greatly outweighs what would have been the cost on a OEM unit. which i ended up buying anyway.

that being said, i really hope you have better luck thank i had. if you make progress, i'd be very interested to hear what worked for you!

Thanks for the update, sorry to hear that you still have problems to work out.

I think that I have gone through almost the same process, there has been days when I felt like trashing the bike and sell it as scrapmetal!
It´s midsummer soon and I havn´t been able to drive the bike at all yet!

I will spend this evening trying to get it to run with the Procom Igniter, if it doesn´t work I will do a waranty exchange (which I already have an ok on) but I really don´t want to wait a couple of weeks to get the new igniter delivered (and I also read on the forum that someone got a second unit with the same problem).

However I don´t have the other problem that you have with the bike cutting out when warm and so on... or at least I didn´t have that problem, we will see about that when I get it to run again.

If you suspect that you have an airleak, did you try spraying some "starting liquid in spray form" (not sure of the english word) from different directions on the cylinder, intakes and so on. To see if the engine responds to that?

/Martin