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I ask this question HERE because the Honda forum is much too incomplete.
That question is: do fuel additives burn like/as fuel?
Thank you for your time.

-StreetShark
 

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Toluene, add about 1 qt to a gallon of pump gas..Try it...Or Google "home made race gas" Lot's of info, some with experience...
 

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Thanks for the response.
I only ask this question to make sure I don't unnecessarily demobilize one of my motorcycles. My next step will be to read ingredients! I mean the Army sold me 2 bottles of the stuff, so I bet HALF of it is good stuff.

-StreetShark
 

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Thanks for the response.
I only ask this question to make sure I don't unnecessarily demobilize one of my motorcycles. My next step will be to read ingredients! I mean the Army sold me 2 bottles of the stuff, so I bet HALF of it is good stuff.

-StreetShark
I remember from my youth adding Methanol to lead based RON 100. With an octane rating of more than RON 106, Methanol will increase the octane rating significantly.

Just whether its cost effective and convenient to use is something for you to find out. RR :wink2:
 

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One word of caution before you start pouring stuff into your fuel. Some of the additives will work fine for raising octane but the mix should never be left in the fuel system because additives can (and will) harm components of the fuel system. Methanol would be a prime example of this since it will eat up rubber and aluminum components.

Then the other question is whether you want to raise the fuel octane because you have a real need for it or if you just think your bike will run better on higher octane fuel. Most modern street bikes will run happily on the 87 octane stuff so there's no benefit for going higher. My '71 Daytona used to like premium leaded fuel. It's usually not too happy with the premium unleaded fuels available now so when I do ride it, I mix 100 Octane "Low Lead" aviation fuel with 93 octane non-ethanol fuel and that combination seems to work just fine.
 

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Unless you have raised the engines compression ratio, there is no benefit in running higher octane fuel. Such changes would also require a change in the ignition advance curve. ...J.D.
 

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Hi Streetshark07, The octane booster available depends on your location. Pretty much in all USA states we are fairly limited on what will actually work.

This stuff is the real deal & really works. It can't be watered down much at all. You pretty much will need the 105 octane mixture. But you'll need to experiment on the ratio that works for you. The stuff is costly & you go through it fast. But it really does work. I've tried pretty much every booster available in California & the Torco has so far been the only one that works. The others were basically useless on my road test route.

Some have suggested trying lower octane fuels such as 87. On a recent ride we were forced to use 87 as that was only fuel sold in the very remote areas. The ping was extreme on pretty much all the bikes on the ride. A mix of Brit, Italian, German, Japanese bikes. 2 machines holed pistons, so this is a serious matter.

Many Triumph 650, & the 8.6cr 750 twins are prone to ping no matter how rich you make mixture. I always set timing back at least 2deg. Boyer ignition helps as full advance doesn't come until about 3500 rpm, while the twins full advance at 2000rpm.


Looking at your profile I see you have 2007 Triumph & 2014 Honda. Both those motors are designed for modern fuel. I expect the owner's hand book has an octane recommendation. Generally once you are up to the recommended octane, raising octane will show little if any improvement. Running tests on both my car & pickup truck which require premium fuel. If I use lower than premium the fuel mileage drops a few miles per gallon. I tested this for a year. When I go out of state & they have 93 I get even more mileage by about 2-3 mph. The extra mpg more than makes up for the 20c per gal cost of premium. Premium is about $4.09 gal right now in my area.


I would run premium in both your bikes. For certain any old Triumph demands premium in California anyway.
Don
 

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Most of the modern Triumphs are setup for mid-grade I have 3 of them that work fine on it. I imagine the vintage bikes would not like it much though. ;)
...J.D.
 

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I have a WMI [water methanol injection] kit on my car. This has the benefits of raising octane while lowering combustion temperatures. I do this because I an running a turbo with 20psi boost and the WMI reduces the ping/knock from +100 to near nothing [you will always get some background noise]. The kit is set up for boost/vacuum and IDC [injector duty cycle]. ie WMI starts being injected at 8 psi and is all in at 14 psi and/or 50% IDC and all in at 70%. So it ramps up.
This system cools the motor, raises the octane, and cleans the motor [if you ever take a WMI motor apart, no carbon]. The water to methanol ratio is 50:50.

Why tell everyone this? Well, if you do it right, the benefits are very impressive, if you just throw some in a tank - which has probably already got variable mix some in it - then the ratio's and thus the benefits change with every fill. Added to this straight methanol is not kind to alloy [as already stated by Doberperson] and some plastics etc, BUT a water meth mix is pretty much inert.

Toluene/thinners is also - as truckedup said - a proven way of increasing the octane rating, again it can be somewhat haphazard unless you always start with an empty tank and precisely measure all quantities. But a word of caution, all these products are highly flammable, methanol flames cannot be seen [except at night] and toluene is now a listed carcinogen by some countries and needs to be handled with care. It is also associated with memory and hearing loss etc but I think this is from repeated exposure.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-09/documents/toluene.pdf

Personally unless you can fit an aquamist or snow performance etc kit to your bike, I wouldn't bother. The possible benefits just don't justify the hassle.
 

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Hi Streetshark07, The octane booster available depends on your location. Pretty much in all USA states we are fairly limited on what will actually work.

This stuff is the real deal & really works. It can't be watered down much at all. You pretty much will need the 105 octane mixture. But you'll need to experiment on the ratio that works for you. The stuff is costly & you go through it fast. But it really does work. I've tried pretty much every booster available in California & the Torco has so far been the only one that works. The others were basically useless on my road test route.

Some have suggested trying lower octane fuels such as 87. On a recent ride we were forced to use 87 as that was only fuel sold in the very remote areas. The ping was extreme on pretty much all the bikes on the ride. A mix of Brit, Italian, German, Japanese bikes. 2 machines holed pistons, so this is a serious matter.

Many Triumph 650, & the 8.6cr 750 twins are prone to ping no matter how rich you make mixture. I always set timing back at least 2deg. Boyer ignition helps as full advance doesn't come until about 3500 rpm, while the twins full advance at 2000rpm.


Looking at your profile I see you have 2007 Triumph & 2014 Honda. Both those motors are designed for modern fuel. I expect the owner's hand book has an octane recommendation. Generally once you are up to the recommended octane, raising octane will show little if any improvement. Running tests on both my car & pickup truck which require premium fuel. If I use lower than premium the fuel mileage drops a few miles per gallon. I tested this for a year. When I go out of state & they have 93 I get even more mileage by about 2-3 mph. The extra mpg more than makes up for the 20c per gal cost of premium. Premium is about $4.09 gal right now in my area.


I would run premium in both your bikes. For certain any old Triumph demands premium in California anyway.
Don
Good post Don. RR :wink2:
 

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For the Aussies here.. I've been using Nulon pro Octane booster for several years now in all my bikes and the resuts are good
The Daytona runs around 10:! compression and 98ron unleaded doesn't cut it.
With the Nulon the thing runs very well.
I researched boosters just after I built the Daytona found the attached comparison test report and to my delight the booster is sold all over the country in almost every town at Supecheap Auto stores.
My riding mates are all running it in their older bikes and the results and benefits are tangible, no pre-ignition, much cleaner running with dryer exhaust pipes and a performance benefit for those with compressions over 9:1.
It seems to promote a better more even fuel burn than the straight non ethanol BP ultimate 98 we use as well as raising the octane rating and is quite economical at the 20cc per 5 litres dose we use as a 500ml bottle is around $A25.
 

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Besides electronic fuel and ignition management, modern engines us port designs to enhance turbulence and fast burn combustion chambers to run high compression on lower octane fuel...The design concepts of the ports and faster burn chambers can be somewhat incorporated into vintage detonation prone engines like Triumphs with out a total redesign..Raising the intake port floors slightly, tighten piston to head quench are known to work...But it seems many vintage bike riders just bitch about fuel and spend time and effort doctoring fuel...>:)
 

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There was nothing wrong with these motors back in the day when we had 101 octane leaded fuel.. I raced a 500 with 11:1 pistons on 101 pump fuel.
Today things are different so I choose to adopt a proven, cheap fuel additive which allows the motor to function well without major combustion and port reshaping.
What you choose to do is your choice.

//ocr
 

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I don't necessarily disagree with what you say..But the bike ride was limited to a tank of fuel, the local small air port stopped selling 100LL without a valid tail number and racing fuel that I use in my race bikes is is too expensive to blend with pump gas for regular use...
I would not take apart of good running engine to make changes but while its apart for rebuild..why not...And the changes I mentioned do sharpen throttle response, increase midrange power and give slightly better fuel mileage...Yes, not for everyone but it is for me because I like to mess around with stuff..
But...I do know guys with old Triumphs that run them on any brand of pump fuel and never have issues..
 

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Hi All, I didn't actually post the link for the Torco. Sorry.
https://torcoracefuel.net/pro-accelerator.html

I've tried to find Nulon in California but haven't been able to. I can't determine if it's allowed to be sold in USA or not. When you try to by Nulon it wants to link you to Boostane. I don't know if there is a connection of formula or not. There are rules for shipping combustibles in the mail which is limiting as well.

I have never seen Boostane for sale in my area. I have no experience with it.

We can't even buy various spray paints in California.

I'll share my experience with my bike & 3 others. I had to skim my head which lowered it by .009" That would increase squish. Was fine in 70s, but now it pinged so bad as to be be unrideable with 91 fuel. However worked perfect with 110 leaded race gas. I bought the 110 for a period of time. Very costly, but the 100 mile leash was devastating to me.

Ended up putting in .070' thick head gasket. This brought hot compression from 170 to 151#. Again, had prior richened mixture to max. If I ran timing 6deg retarted the ping was ok, but the motor did not run properly.

This tends to show me if compression ratio is too high for the fuel tightening squish band won't help. Of course skimming head indeed raised CR at the same time.

The real cure is lowering CR or other engine modifications such as dual plugs. Rabers has even had some motors ping with dual plugs. They have been doing 7.1 for a time now. Even their mechanic put 7.1 pistons in his bike for the daily commute over the Santa Cruz mountians.

Putting 7.1 LF Harris pistons in the '69 Bonnie was a God send. It just works so good. This machine has been ridden in the harshest conditions 110f heat, up steep hills at freeway speeds with head winds. If there is a lack of power it simply cannot be felt in real life conditions. Very careful road tests were made before & after. The thing is you need the high octane to support higher compression.


For 750 twin I've been involved with 2 motors. Both went from 8.6 to 7.4 LF Harris pistons. Both had stellar results as well. Again no perception of loss of performance. I know on paper or the dyno it should loose power, but on the road you can't feel it.

The airports in the San Francisco area have now all locked up the pumps so Aviation fuel is no longer an option. Used to be you could just get a wing # from plane in the lot & enter it. But now the fence is locked tight.

The Nortons ping least of all. They are actually pretty good. BSA are not as bad as Triumph. The design of the Triumph motor was very good for power. How many races & world records did they have...??? But it must have high octane to support it. Back in the early 50s Triumph had lower CR & still were very fast. I've ridden all day with latter 50s bikes with low compression motors. 7.5. They do no lack power in any way. The low compression motors were ridden to 8000'. Ran just fine, started fine. I don't know what they'd do at very high elevations.

I'm with Truckedup. I'm not changing my pistons until they are worn out, but for sure I'll go with the Harris 7.4 & just be done with it. Race gas just sucks as it is very hard to come by. Nearly impossible. Octane boosters are an inconvenience.

If you are into high performance or racing motor modifications can give you what you want. If you just want to ride your bike for fun at normal highway speeds, I doubt you'd be disappointed in lower compression. It just solves the problem.

Just depends on what you want. I hate to see guys that just want to ride around stay with too high of compression during piston replacement. Melted pistons are a real issue in California. Apparently not so much where 93 octane is available.
Don
 

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Hi OCR, Thanks for posting the link on octane boosters.

We have VP racing unleaded fuel 101 at a few race gas stations. Very few! It works very well for old Triumphs. After seeing the difference in octane raising of the additives & real race gas I can see why most additives do little good. Simply not enough octane rise.
Don
 

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For the Aussies here.. I've been using Nulon pro Octane booster for several years now in all my bikes and the resuts are good
The Daytona runs around 10:! compression and 98ron unleaded doesn't cut it.
With the Nulon the thing runs very well.
I've seen it on the shelves myself Davey. Whilst I've not actually used it, you're not the first to endorse it.

My T120 runs 9:1 and will run on 95 RON quite OK, but it's BP 98 for me, and its quite the right fuel for this compression ratio IMHO. RR :wink2:
 

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Hi All, I didn't actually post the link for the Torco. Sorry.
https://torcoracefuel.net/pro-accelerator.html

I've tried to find Nulon in California but haven't been able to. I can't determine if it's allowed to be sold in USA or not. When you try to by Nulon it wants to link you to Boostane. I don't know if there is a connection of formula or not. There are rules for shipping combustibles in the mail which is limiting as well.

I have never seen Boostane for sale in my area. I have no experience with it.

We can't even buy various spray paints in California.

I'll share my experience with my bike & 3 others. I had to skim my head which lowered it by .009" That would increase squish. Was fine in 70s, but now it pinged so bad as to be be unrideable with 91 fuel. However worked perfect with 110 leaded race gas. I bought the 110 for a period of time. Very costly, but the 100 mile leash was devastating to me.

Ended up putting in .070' thick head gasket. This brought hot compression from 170 to 151#. Again, had prior richened mixture to max. If I ran timing 6deg retarted the ping was ok, but the motor did not run properly.

This tends to show me if compression ratio is too high for the fuel tightening squish band won't help. Of course skimming head indeed raised CR at the same time.

The real cure is lowering CR or other engine modifications such as dual plugs. Rabers has even had some motors ping with dual plugs. They have been doing 7.1 for a time now. Even their mechanic put 7.1 pistons in his bike for the daily commute over the Santa Cruz mountians.

Putting 7.1 LF Harris pistons in the '69 Bonnie was a God send. It just works so good. This machine has been ridden in the harshest conditions 110f heat, up steep hills at freeway speeds with head winds. If there is a lack of power it simply cannot be felt in real life conditions. Very careful road tests were made before & after. The thing is you need the high octane to support higher compression.


For 750 twin I've been involved with 2 motors. Both went from 8.6 to 7.4 LF Harris pistons. Both had stellar results as well. Again no perception of loss of performance. I know on paper or the dyno it should loose power, but on the road you can't feel it.

The airports in the San Francisco area have now all locked up the pumps so Aviation fuel is no longer an option. Used to be you could just get a wing # from plane in the lot & enter it. But now the fence is locked tight.

The Nortons ping least of all. They are actually pretty good. BSA are not as bad as Triumph. The design of the Triumph motor was very good for power. How many races & world records did they have...??? But it must have high octane to support it. Back in the early 50s Triumph had lower CR & still were very fast. I've ridden all day with latter 50s bikes with low compression motors. 7.5. They do no lack power in any way. The low compression motors were ridden to 8000'. Ran just fine, started fine. I don't know what they'd do at very high elevations.

I'm with Truckedup. I'm not changing my pistons until they are worn out, but for sure I'll go with the Harris 7.4 & just be done with it. Race gas just sucks as it is very hard to come by. Nearly impossible. Octane boosters are an inconvenience.

If you are into high performance or racing motor modifications can give you what you want. If you just want to ride your bike for fun at normal highway speeds, I doubt you'd be disappointed in lower compression. It just solves the problem.

Just depends on what you want. I hate to see guys that just want to ride around stay with too high of compression during piston replacement. Melted pistons are a real issue in California. Apparently not so much where 93 octane is available.
Don
Don, I had eliminate the cylinder base gasket and mill the cylinder .016 to zero deck the pistons for a quench of .034..... .009 won't do anything one way or the other in my opinion...
Have you or any of the Triumph guys you ride with ever checked intake cam timing on the 750's? Myself and "Bike Vice" on Brit Bike have checked three 750's ,two 73's and my 79...The intake lobe centers were 90-92 degrees..T-120's are normally around 100-102 from the factory and race cams are 103-107...
The over advanced cam timing builds excessive cylinder pressure at lower rpm's and invites detonation. The Harley guys knew this years ago and used mild performance cams with later intake timing to deal with detonation..This is also the reason hot rod cars guys can run higher compression on pump gas when using hotter cams...
Changing the T140 cam timing to around 100 degrees lobe center will raise the power band 500-1000 rpm and the engine will be more responsive.. And since detonation is time dependent, higher rpm means less chance of detonation...And the engine is much happier above 4000 rpm..
 

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For the Aussies here.. I've been using Nulon pro Octane booster for several years now in all my bikes and the resuts are good
The Daytona runs around 10:! compression and 98ron unleaded doesn't cut it.
With the Nulon the thing runs very well.
I researched boosters just after I built the Daytona found the attached comparison test report and to my delight the booster is sold all over the country in almost every town at Supecheap Auto stores.
My riding mates are all running it in their older bikes and the results and benefits are tangible, no pre-ignition, much cleaner running with dryer exhaust pipes and a performance benefit for those with compressions over 9:1.
It seems to promote a better more even fuel burn than the straight non ethanol BP ultimate 98 we use as well as raising the octane rating and is quite economical at the 20cc per 5 litres dose we use as a 500ml bottle is around $A25.

+1 on the Nulon pro octane booster, works very well indeed
 
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