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Discussion Starter #1
People claim german engineering is superior and cite the formula 1 team as proof...
Can anyone clarify what I've heard....
The formula 1 team mercedes-amg Petronas has won for the last 6 years, so it would logically seem correct, but how much of it is actually German?
The chassis company was Brawn GP in the UK
The power plant, amg, was a UK company, Ilmor Engineering also in the UK,
The drivers are not german,
Petronas is Malaysian,
Lead team members are not german.
Other then the licence to use the name, how much is actually "superior german engineering"?
 

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In my younger days, I worked in the research labs at Daimler-Benz in Untertürkheim. The F1 test bench was below my office, and bloody noisy it could be at times. Yes, the engines are made by Ilmoor but they were tested, fettled and generally buggered about with by the good folk at Daimler. Petronas is just a sponsor, and back then most of the team leadership were German - used to see Norbert Haug in the canteen. AMG is most definitely German, and is nowadays a wholly-owned subsidiary of Mercedes.

Basically, the Mercedes F1 team is like any successful large organisation - they hire talent from all over the world. Want to compare them to the Britishness of Liverpool, or the England Rugby team?
 

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In my younger days, I worked in the research labs at Daimler-Benz in Untertürkheim. The F1 test bench was below my office, and bloody noisy it could be at times. Yes, the engines are made by Ilmoor but they were tested, fettled and generally buggered about with by the good folk at Daimler. Petronas is just a sponsor, and back then most of the team leadership were German - used to see Norbert Haug in the canteen. AMG is most definitely German, and is nowadays a wholly-owned subsidiary of Mercedes.

Basically, the Mercedes F1 team is like any successful large organisation - they hire talent from all over the world. Want to compare them to the Britishness of Liverpool, or the England Rugby team?
A friend of mine works as an engineer for F1 Mercedes in Northampton, he tells me the whole car is designed in England, the chassis, engine and control systems are manufactured here, and the complete car is assembled in England also. He is a reputable chap (Oxford engineering graduate with a good record) so I have no reason to disbelieve him.


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Discussion Starter #4
So you are saying it used to be mostly german, but since they started winning, its not so much any more, rather UK based with talent from all over the world.
 

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When I was there they won every category of racing they entered. Either 8 or 10 series in 1 year, everything from F1 to Touring Car, truck racing, some American thing. Oh and don't forget the money - that comes from Germany and chances are most of the staff based in the UK aren't British, so what's the point exactly? Do you resent the fact that Mercedes are winning things at the minute? Prefer a different manufacturer? Finding it boring? Personally, I haven't watched F1 since I left Daimler - I just find it incredibly tedious.

@Othen, maybe they are made in the UK nowadays, I wouldn't know as I haven't worked at Daimler for 20 years. I just don't see what the point of the OP is - it just seems like having a dig at Germans for no reason. Let's not forget we're riding bikes that were probably made in Thailand by Thai workers, maybe even other foreigners, but everyone seems to accept that because it's a Triumph, it's British. Land Rover has factories in the UK, China, Brazil, Slovakia, BMW's biggest plant is in South Carolina - does that mean that the cars from there aren't 'real' BMWs? It's the 21st century, it's a big world and ..... I don't know, it all just seems a bit....maybe I'm just having an arsey day.
 

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When I was there they won every category of racing they entered. Either 8 or 10 series in 1 year, everything from F1 to Touring Cat and Truck racing. Personally, I haven't watched F1 since I left Daimler - I just find it incredibly boring.
I like the touring cat racing though, my cat Millicent quite often wins.

:)



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Actually, I just noticed this is the same guy that started the 'I don't like BMW' thread. What's your next thread going to be - 'Why are Volkswagen drivers more dangerous' or 'Siemens dishwashers are rubbish'? Germany has a reputation for good engineering because they've been bloody good at it for a very long time.
 

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Germany has a reputation for good engineering because they've been bloody good at it for a very long time.
Sorry but I disagree, all that the Germans are good at is marketing, they just throw huge amounts of money at it all over the world. The British have always been world leaders in engineering and invention, the sad fact of it is us Brits are just crap at selling our ideas.
 

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I gave up watching the 'Lewis Hamilton show' when it went over to pay per view TV, formula one has just got too boring to pay for. When I was a kid I used to go to the British Grand Prix every year, it was much more exciting back then, formula one just doesn't have enough death and carnage in it now.
I also think they should abolish the constructor's championship, I don't see how it can be a fair system with Mercedes winning it all the time, this just means they get even more money to pump into the cars for the following season, the smaller not so well off teams don't stand a chance of getting anywhere.
 

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Let's not forget we're riding bikes that were probably made in Thailand by Thai workers, maybe even other foreigners, but everyone seems to accept that because it's a Triumph, it's British
Wait up a minute, I know my Triumph's made in Britain. I wouldn't consider owning one made elsewhere as far as I'm concerned Triumph sold out by moving their manufacturing to Thailand, they've just made the Triumph brand cheap and this shows with all the plastic parts they are fitting now.
 

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Your not going to tell me rear engine'd VW beetles and those VW bus things were engineered well, all they were was under powered rust buckets, the French built a better more capable 'peoples car' with the 2CV . Not only that, VW drivers are just poor wannabe Audi drivers.
 

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Sorry but I disagree, all that the Germans are good at is marketing, they just throw huge amounts of money at it all over the world. The British have always been world leaders in engineering and invention, the sad fact of it is us Brits are just crap at selling our ideas.
Oh that's cobblers Jerry and you know it. HMG tries to market UK manufacturing and skills all over the world, but folk just smile politely and nod and wait until they've left. Big companies come here to get their stuff made, or more usually to get the machines made that they need to make their stuff There's an awful lot of SMEs over here that nobody's ever heard of that make one thing, but they've been making that one thing for donkey's years and they're rudely good at it. Now the Brits have a great reputation over here for coming up with stuff and thinking outside the box, which is really not the German strong suit (I do realise we are dealing in sweeping generalisations here :) ), but I know if I needed something manufacturing to ridiculous tolerances, I'd take a German product every time. They're just very very good at doing that. British engineering's been in a sad state of decline since old Isambard kicked the bucket :)

edit - btw, I'm not talking about the car firms - it always surprised me that Mercedes ever managed to get a car on the road and back then their cars looked their design team consisted of the local kindergarten kids and box of Crayolas

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Oh that's cobblers Jerry and you know it. HMG tries to market UK manufacturing and skills all over the world, but folk just smile politely and nod and wait until they've left. Big companies come here to get their stuff made, or more usually to get the machines made that they need to make their stuff There's an awful lot of SMEs over here that nobody's ever heard of that make one thing, but they've been making that one thing for donkey's years and they're rudely good at it. Now the Brits have a great reputation over here for coming up with stuff and thinking outside the box, which is really not the German strong suit (I do realise we are dealing in sweeping generalisations here :) ), but I know if I needed something manufacturing to ridiculous tolerances, I'd take a German product every time. They're just very very good at doing that. British engineering's been in a sad state of decline since old Isambard kicked the bucket :)
The turbo jet engine was invented by Frank Whittle a Brit, VW were kicked back into life by Ivan Hirst who was a Brit, John Logie Baird came up with the TV, there are hundreds of ideas and inventions that have come out of Britain first, We started the industrial revolution for christ sake. Up until the second world war Germany was on it's arse, so to speak, It was the western powers that help Germany back on to it's feet with bail outs, which I will give credit to the Germans because they used these 'bail outs' to improve their manufacturing base.
I don't necessarily think the Germans are better than any other country as far as engineering goes, all they have is better equipment to do it with.
Now trying not to get to political here, but the second world war crippled us Brits, along with other countries, so we didn't have the money or resources to throw into manufacturing which I believe killed it for us, on a mass production level anyway.
 

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edit - btw, I'm not talking about the car firms - it always surprised me that Mercedes ever managed to get a car on the road and back then their cars looked their design team consisted of the local kindergarten kids and box of Crayolas
I think most people would agree with you on that one :LOL:. Then I still think these only sold because of canny marketing skills.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yep that's me, I started the I dis-like BMW thread after owning other bike brands before during and after spending my own money on and owning BMW bikes. The thread is titled "I dont like ..." not " ... makes crap bikes" if I did like BMW bikes I'd still own them, but they are subjectively not to me, so therefore I don't like them.
This thread is "Can anyone clarify what I've heard" its about clarification of evidence to support that superiority claim, can someone objectively prove it. Because it seems that its not very German, so what is it actually, is it actually German?
 

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Been a F1 fan for years. Anyone commenting on the recent F1 racing seasons being boring has NOT been watching them. Some of the most exciting races over the last couple of seasons have been in F1 racing, even though one team is dominating. Consistency in performance, or with Lewis, does not necessarily equal boring, just dominance!

I think the OP was asking about F1 relevance...does winning equal great engineering? And to follow, what does "Great Engineering" mean? Ferrari was leading the pack for years....fastest, best looking designs (maybe?), but not particularly (overly complex?) reliable. Having driven many brands, what I have noticed is that those with an established winning track record (pun intended) benefit from the trickle down for us every day drivers. This includes the majority of German brands, Lotus in their day(thank you Colin Chapman), and Japanese and Italian manufacturers. Clearly seems to me that those brands with a racing heritage stand apart from the rest. Better in many ways. Great handling, feedback, and sheer fun to be at one with....Porsche being a prime example, with the popularity to prove it within the driving enthusiast fraternity.

One of the things I like about driving a motorcycle is the relative ease with which one can feel at one, on the road, on track or in a field. And way more accessible and affordable than the premium car brands, well engineered or not. Disappointing to find fewer and fewer riders, retailers closing, and majority of individuals unwilling to try the experience. Rant almost over...but I guess it's their loss. Time will tell.
 

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Mercedes Benz in F1:

Great engineering...yes- great machine- engine power/ reliability/ aero package/ suspension setup/...and STRATEGY

The winning aspect for M-B is THE TEAM behind the drivers...Toto Wolff , who owns 30% of Team Petronas, has a brilliant group of engineers and strategists with him and in particular puts the "brain trust" at Ferrari to shame. Ferrari looked promising for a portion (early on) of last season but glitches, brain farts and the ever- mercurial Mr. Vettel were their undoing in 2019. Seb enjoyed four championships with Red Bull, a team that had much of the same synergy in place as M-B does now, much like Ferrari during the Schumacher/ Ross Brawn/ Rory Byrne era...Byrne designed cars won 96 F1 races with Bennetton and Ferrari

Lewis- petulant at times, has revitalized fan base through social media. Best at self-promotion ..Consistent skill set. Still not a fan. I have been watching F1 since Lorenzo Bandini lost his life in Monaco in '67 and have been to seven circuits. I still enjoy the sport, but miss the charismatic drivers of the past, and the normally aspirated V-10 Ferrari ran back in the day, what a voice!. F 1 is now a technological showcase and a money machine...still enjoyable but not showing the passion of the sixties though the nineties...glad that safety has become predominant but I do feel that the sport has become overly sanitized..
I will be tuning in and hope to see Charles LeClerc and Max Verstappen show some maturity and assume dominance this season.
 
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