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Hi philliplye, I'm far from expert, but a few thoughts come to mind. Are you just using cases? What about the metric crank bearing of later crank? You need to verify your parts will fit early case.

Another thought is the breather system on '69 is through timed breather driven by inlet cam. Will you cam accommodate the '69 system?

Also & this is important in my mind, the frame breather is tube welded to under side of back bone near front of gas tank. This location allows oil to run up back bone under certain conditions like hard braking down hill. Some liquid oil runs down breather tube with this happens. Not a problem on 1970 & new cases with primary breather as frame breather is T'd into breather hose & liquid simply runs into primary case & ultimately returns to frame reservoir.

However with timed breather on 1969 & earlier, it's hard for liquid oil to go backwards into engine. It certainly can to a small degree, but my feeling is you'll get a lot of liquid oil running out of breather at rear of fender.

Modifying early case to primary breather is another subject.

The trans shift cam index is different on '69 also. But that is easy. Use 1973 T140 plunger housing assembly.

In the end of the day I wonder if you'd be better off with '70 & newer 650 cases?

Classic British Spares has online parts books & shop manuals, plus tech pages.

This list is very complete. Vintage Bike Magazine » Parts Books

Don
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi philliplye, I'm far from expert, but a few thoughts come to mind. Are you just using cases? What about the metric crank bearing of later crank? You need to verify your parts will fit early case.

Another thought is the breather system on '69 is through timed breather driven by inlet cam. Will you cam accommodate the '69 system?

Also & this is important in my mind, the frame breather is tube welded to under side of back bone near front of gas tank. This location allows oil to run up back bone under certain conditions like hard braking down hill. Some liquid oil runs down breather tube with this happens. Not a problem on 1970 & new cases with primary breather as frame breather is T'd into breather hose & liquid simply runs into primary case & ultimately returns to frame reservoir.

However with timed breather on 1969 & earlier, it's hard for liquid oil to go backwards into engine. It certainly can to a small degree, but my feeling is you'll get a lot of liquid oil running out of breather at rear of fender.

Modifying early case to primary breather is another subject.

The trans shift cam index is different on '69 also. But that is easy. Use 1973 T140 plunger housing assembly.

In the end of the day I wonder if you'd be better off with '70 & newer 650 cases?

Classic British Spares has online parts books & shop manuals, plus tech pages.

This list is very complete. Vintage Bike Magazine » Parts Books

Don
Thanks for the extensive reply Don. Despite your "disclaimer", you seem to know a lot about the subject. I have little hope of finding answers to the questions you pose unless I find a single source which, or who, can give me a definitive answer. I am just not that knowledgeable. I have a T65 BSA in perfect running order. The value of the bike over a TR6R is in the correctly stamped matching number cases. I am looking for the "insurance" a set of correct Triumph cases, un-stamped with a vin number, can provide. Any leads on where I might find such a set of OIF cases appreciated. regards Phil
 

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Thanks for getting back. I like the sound of your reply! Phil
You're welcome 😊

Regarding the response from DAVE M if you tap on the Tech Library it will take you to a large selection of parts books and tech information.

To clarify my response I was talking about a complete engine. IF on the other hand you have a set of 69 cases and want to put all the guts from a 72/73 engine in the earlier cases you will have a problem in your life.

Now would you clarify one thing for me. Are you saying your bike is a 1973 T65T BSA??

By the way the previously mentioned Tech Library has a 73 T65T BSA parts book.

K

As an edit I just checked and a T65T had the metric bearings so IF you are looking for a set of back up cases you need to obtain a set from late '71- 74. As far as finding a set of unstamped set will be difficult if VIN pad is stamped Triumph. If they are stamped BSA unless you have access to Divine intervention it ain't gonna happen.

K
 

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Discussion Starter #9
You're welcome 😊

Regarding the response from DAVE M if you tap on the Tech Library it will take you to a large selection of parts books and tech information.

To clarify my response I was talking about a complete engine. IF on the other hand you have a set of 69 cases and want to put all the guts from a 72/73 engine in the earlier cases you will have a problem in your life.

Now would you clarify one thing for me. Are you saying your bike is a 1973 T65T BSA??

By the way the previously mentioned Tech Library has a 73 T65T BSA parts book.

K

As an edit I just checked and a T65T had the metric bearings so IF you are looking for a set of back up cases you need to obtain a set from late '71- 74. As far as finding a set of unstamped set will be difficult if VIN pad is stamped Triumph. If they are stamped BSA unless you have access to Divine intervention it ain't gonna happen.

K
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Yes, the bike is a 73 T65 BSA, and further clarification, the vin pads were stamped "Triumph", not BSA. I bought mine as a Triumph which was how it had been living life. In 73 and on nobody wanted a BSA in the eyes of sellers so those that were around were mostly converted to Triumphs. And the order from the South Australia Police was around forty, not 200 plus as inferred in "history" books.
I removed the tank badges and revealed a third hole in the tank which neatly fits the BSA badge.
So, all I need is an un-vin-stamped set of Triumph cases from an OIF frame.
I don't think I will NEED the cases, but since any greater perceived value in the bike by a prospective buyer will depend on correctness, I look for an "insurance" set. And there is a 69 "un-vinned" set of cases available at huge dollars, hence the initial question.
And I do have three copies of that parts book. I forgot that I bought the first one and bought a second, and the third was in a job lot of books I bought from a friends estate. No pictures, just part numbers which do not appear in the "this Triumph part is the same as this BSA part" books that the dealers had.
I will try harder to attach pics to these posts.
Thanks again for taking the time to adjust your initial response, much appreciated. Phil
 

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Hi Phil, No idea where you could find an unstamped case. It might cost more than the extra value it might give bike?? I don't know that the '69 case will help you in this situation.

I find the easiest why to post photos is first put them in a folder in your "pictures". Name folder so you can find it later.

Then to add photo to your post click the paper clip on the bottom of the page. (Not insert image icon). That opens a window. In that window find the pictures word or icon & click on it to open your pictures. So you navigate to your pictures. Double click on folder to open it. Double click on picture you want to post. It should load on page below your text box.

If you get wrong pic, click delete button on right of photo box.

Pic will load as thumbnail. Don't click Thumbnail or photo will jump up into text. The reader can click to enlarge.
If you want, you can click Full image. The Thumbnail will enlarge & reader will see the full size image without having to enlarge.

Note: I find if I take too long to add photo the page may "go to sleep". The icon for the photo will show like it wants to load, but it doesn't load. I delete the photo icon with delete button. I find I then need to refresh the page with refresh button on top of my screen. Scroll back down to the post I'm working on & click paper clip & start over. Photo always loads as expected then.

For this demonstration I posted photo of Britech pressure plate. Clicked full image. This is what you see.
Don
IMG_5474.JPG
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Triffic. I'll give it a go. You'll know if I master the art by the number of pics that turn up.
Sadly, I spent twenty five years in the IT trade, starting when I was living in the UK. 1969 I went for a job as a mainframe operator. I did really badly in the aptitude test, but the manager gave me the job because I wore a suit to the interview.
phil
 

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Hi Phil,

73 T65
the order from the South Australia Police was around forty, not 200 plus as inferred in "history" books.
(y) A model that's interested me.

Meriden built 265 of 'em, the first bikes of the '73 model year (apart from the first three TR5T's assembled 'off-line'). I've long thought it was unlikely they were all for SA police; I discovered only last year they were actually sent all over the world although, oddly, apparently none to the US and none stayed in GB? :unsure: However, the definitive answer at least to that is probably in the Meriden dispatch books for the period in the VMCC library; absent anyone else sooner, it's somewhere on my to-do list ... :whistle:

un-vin-stamped set of Triumph cases from an OIF
I don't think I will NEED the cases, but since any greater perceived value in the bike by a prospective buyer will depend on correctness, I look for an "insurance" set. And there is a 69 "un-vinned" set of cases available
Mmmm ... from Don's posts, imho the '69 cases probably aren't what you want; they could be made to work to make a runner but, by definition, the changes necessary would simply turn the bike into a bitsa. Also, '69 cases have some features that make them unique - first year of Unified threadforms, last year of timed breather, etc. - so it might be a pity to deny 'em to someone trying to restore a '69 650?

Where an unstamped set of '69 cases might be useful is if you then go on to look for a bitsa with '69 cycle parts but that's been rebuilt with OIF cases? Rebuild the '69 engine in the correct cases (flog it?) and you have your spare set of OIF cases?

that parts book.
No pictures, just part numbers which do not appear in the "this Triumph part is the same as this BSA part" books that the dealers had.
:cool: That's because none of 'em are BSA part numbers ... apart from the "BSA" tank badges and the alternator rotor cover with "BSA" cast in, the bikes are entirely Triumph - mostly OIF TR6, plus some other Triumph bits.

So, when looking for a picture of a part, most can be found in the '72 650 parts book. Nevertheless:-

. The rear lamp and mudguard are standard '73-on (so they can be found in the '73 750 parts book).

. Fork yokes and stanchions are '71/'72 OIF, speedo. 'n' tacho. 'n' brackets are '71-'78 so all in the '72 650 book. Otoh, fork shrouds (covering the stanchions between the yokes), headlamp shell and mounting bits are '73-'78 OIF, so in the '73 750 book (you know OIF shrouds are about 1/4" shorter than 'dry-frame' - '71-'74 T100 and '73/'74 T150?).

. Front brake is the same as fitted to '69-'74 T100R apart from any black-painted centre, same as fitted to '69/'70 triples, 650's and T100T, so in the '73 T100 book. Only the part to anchor that brake to the TS slider is both T65-peculiar and 'Oz-peculiar'.

. The sliders and spindle caps are T65-peculiar/'Oz-peculiar'. The sliders are basically '71/'72 conical (for the brake anchor on the TS slider) but the pre-conical brake's spindle is slightly larger than the ends of the conical spindle, so the spindle cutaway in each slider is larger than in standard conical sliders.

. Spindle caps are basically disc-brake. Reason I say "basically" here is, while disc-brake caps' spindle cutaways are the correct size, disc-brake securing stud holes' spacing is slightly different from conical slider studs' spacing. Reason they modified disc-brake spindle caps castings is the rear 'hoop' of the mudguard mounting ... :D

. Like the front brake, mudguard and mounting 'hoops' themselves are the same as the '73 T100 - although they look the same as '73/'74 disc-brake bits, disc-brake sliders are nearly an inch further apart than drum-brake (conical and pre-conical) sliders. Contemporary T100 was still using pre-conical forks (along with the brake) so the 'hoops' are the same. The ends of the front and middle hoops are then secured to the T65 (and early '73 TR6) sliders with same 97-4446 bracket as used on the 'non-disc' side of the disc-brake forks. (y)

. Btw, reasons I used the term "Oz-peculiar" and mention "early '73 TR6" above are, after the T65's, Meriden built a small batch of T120's, a small batch of T140's and then 122 TR6's, most of which also went to Oz and had the same front end as the T65's. However, some of these TR6's remained in GB and were fitted with standard conical front end, including sliders and brake but still with the mudguard, mounting and spindle caps detailed above.

You can also find pictures of parts online - simply enter "triumph " plus the part number (or "lucas " plus the part number appropriately) into your preferred internet search engine and either look at the returned images or follow the returned links. However, be aware that Meriden made mistakes with part numbers and some people who've posted images online can be pretty stupid - e.g. when checking that 97-4446 number, images of several different parts came up, including the slider-'hoops' mounting bracket used on the 'disc' side ... :rolleyes: (which has a different part number ...). Nevertheless, on balance, it's a useful facility.

Reason for 265 T65's is difficult to fathom? If SA police took 40, why another 225? :unsure: All the Meriden production history I know says bikes were built in batches to orders collected by the sales department? However, given where the T65's went and in what numbers, it looks more like a speculative build; perhaps it was to see if a Triumph badge-engineered as a BSA would still sell? Bert Hopwood - as MD of the BSA Motorcycle Division - must've been deeply involved; however, his Whatever Happened To The British Motorcycle Industry doesn't mention anything and he passed before the T65's existence was widely-known. :(

Hth.

Regards,
 

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I've seen unstamped but logo' d cases for sale at Kempton park, 750 I think? And seem to remember that they were knocking on a grand a set?
 

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Phil thanks for the clarification on the VIN pad stampings. I have only seen one of these bikes. It is in the Joliet Illinois area and chopped brought over from Australia in that condition. I was trying to buy it before my health went South and I don't remember the VIN pad stampings. By the way the bike also has a Triumph title.

As far as the total production number of machines in the history books I have found many errors in many books. If I remember all the books state the T65's were bound for an unnamed Arabic nation's military. I have never seen a reference to the South Australian Police usage. However the one in this area was supposed to be a former Police bike.

The parts book thing I would use the 72 650 Triumph for engine pictures and the 73 750 Twin for the chassis bits pictures.

As far as purchasing a set of unstamped cases just my opinion but that's a waste of resources. There is no reason to think you cases are more likely to fail than any other set.

But the 1969 set are NOT what you want. If you can find a metric bearing set (late 71 production , June I believe, thru 74) for a good price that is what you are looking for. IF you are deep into Brit Bikes might be something interesting for your parts shelf.

I see there have been a number of posts this morning. I started this last night after we returned from the Theater bit being a wee bit tired couldn't get it finished. Have a good day my friend.

K
 

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Hi K,

total production number of machines in the history books
I have never seen a reference to the South Australian Police usage.
If you're interested, lots of information on BritBike over the years - put "T65" in the Search and spend a few hours ... :) albeit some of the earlier stuff has been superseded by later research, much done by Australians; the South Australia Police connection is well-known.

Otoh, I don't know of any books with information - neither The Triumph Trophy Bible nor Bonnie (although my copy of the latter is the first edition); ime, that's the reason for some of the earlier speculation/incorrect information in early BritBike threads, because there isn't any information in books. Fwiw, the 265 T65's seems to be pretty sure, none of the reliable books (the above two plus Triumph Tiger 100 And Daytona?) contradict and, just for my own amusement, I've managed to piece together the models of the first 2000+ '73 bikes, just need to find some time to spend in the VMCC library to confirm.

The parts book thing I would use the 72 650 Triumph for engine pictures and the 73 750 Twin for the chassis bits pictures.
Basically yes, but no drum-brake parts in the '73 750 Twin parts book; as I posted for Phil, the front end on all the early '73 650's sent to Oz is an unique combination from the Meriden parts bins and a few special bits. I haven't yet discovered why (if?) T65's to other destinations had the same front end, or why the following Oz TR6's had it, but they definitely did.

Hth.

Regards,
 

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The late Terry Hobbs from Plymouth was making new Triumph castings for his dealership and racing. I went to the auction selling the workshop contents and spares. There were a lot of faulty reject items amongst the items. batches of new T120 cylinder heads which were missing some fins as the aluminium did not enter the moulds. If you were to find unmarked castings, they might have come from this sale. You would need a careful inspection as many had not been machined. Monty, the Triumph spares seller worked at Terry Hobbs for many years and would know of these parts. He might even have a few.
I bought nothing on the day as the lots were batches of 10 items or various parts just dumped into a box. The auctioneer had no idea of how to put the parts into useful lots so most of it went at low prices. It was a 2 day auction to clear the whole dealership of its parts and machinery.
The Terry Hobbs history might be interesting for some people on this forum. Do a search for Terry Hobbs and look on Montys site for a bit of his story there.
 

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Hi
Thunder engineering makes extra strong crankcases for the racers. Pre unit.
The last time I spoke to him he was toying with the idea of producing strengthened Unit cases, but because of it being a complicated casting, he was worried about return on a large investment.
IDK whatbthe outcome was.
Regards
Peg.
 

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Hi Stuart, Sorry for the late reply. Your post #13 was most interesting & informative! This model is very interesting & I found it puzzling why Triumph would build such a bike. No doubt they had a logic to it.

Thanks for the write up.
Don
 

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[/QUOTE="TR7RVMan, post: 2004049303, member: 123193"]
Hi Stuart, Sorry for the late reply. Your post #13 was most interesting & informative! This model is very interesting & I found it puzzling why Triumph would build such a bike. No doubt they had a logic to it.

Thanks for the write up.
Don
[/QUOTE]

The bikes were built to fulfil a BSA Contract. As an afterthought since BSA acquired Triumph in March 1951 one could say it was a different division filling an order. I sure the logic was to sell 265 machines and since engines were shared in the single and triple why not the twin?

K
 
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