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Discussion Starter #1
Saw this stuff on Amazon. Seems to be highly rated both as a balancer and a tire sealant. I ordered two of them today. They are supposed to be here early early next week. Does anyone run this stuff, and if so , can you offer any advice about using it, pro or con? Thanks
 

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If a tube get's a split the sealant won't hold it very well as a puncture through a tube is like a cut balloon and often causes a split. Still, it may help in some cases if you're very lucky.
Re the balance thing, I've never understood that claim. The sealant goes to the point farthest from the axle, as that is 'downhill' from a centrifugal point of view. If that's the lightest spot, great, but it isn't always.
I'd avoid the random factor and just get the wheel balanced. A 10g weight on a 17" rim at 100mph weighs about 1Kg, so the idea of sealant sloshing around then setting in a random location makes me uncomfortable.

Re punctures, investigate sealing your rims using Outex or the 3M solution, and that way most punctures result in a very slow leak. When I get a screw in the tyre I can pump it up (which I have done) and ride it to the workshop. With the tubes I had to load it onto the ute to drive it there.
 

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For tubed tires, the effect is not as good, though some have claimed it will slow down loss of pressure when a puncture happens...meaning you've got more time to slow down before loss of control . There are sealants that claim to be for tubed tires...not sure what the difference is, maybe more of the stringy fibers than for non-tubed tires? It's the stringy material that gets pulled into the puncture to try to plug it up with the goop making it air tight. Iguess someone should test it out on a used up old tire/tube...run over some nails etc and report back here how it works...

Regarding self-balancing, there are several websites/YouTube vids around explaining how this works in tires. In addition on balancing sealant products, another method is using weighted beads...you add them to the tube prior to fitting the valve core. This creates dynamic balance due to the physics involved...weights/sealant migrates to the lighter side of the rotating wheel...gives you perfect balancing and can adapt to changes as the tire wears down or if it slips a little on the rim. I've got bead-balanced tubes (purchased with beads already added) in my Norton Commando since I was mounting the tires myself and didn't want to deal with getting them balanced....seem to work a treat...very smooth at speed...not fugly weights on the rim/spokes.
 

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Regarding self-balancing, there are several websites/YouTube vids around explaining how this works in tires. In addition on balancing sealant products, another method is using weighted beads...you add them to the tube prior to fitting the valve core. This creates dynamic balance due to the physics involved...weights/sealant migrates to the lighter side of the rotating wheel...gives you perfect balancing and can adapt to changes as the tire wears down or if it slips a little on the rim. I've got bead-balanced tubes (purchased with beads already added) in my Norton Commando since I was mounting the tires myself and didn't want to deal with getting them balanced....seem to work a treat...very smooth at speed...not fugly weights on the rim/spokes.
I'd love to see an explanation of how these are supposed to balance the wheel. It may sound odd, but everything inside the wheel moves to the point farthest from the axle (centre of rotation). If your tyre has a thin spot on the inside, it will fill, as that's the 'downhill' part. But unbalanced wheels are also caused by rim irregularities, so why would adding a sloshy product help? Well adding 20g of anything distributes 20Kg of additional centrifugal weight around the rim. Heavier rims are less prone to vibration relative to lighter ones, but is this really the best way to address the problem?
If you can find a YouTube video with a genuine scientific explanation let me know. I found a spinning Coke bottle on a drill (simply stabilised by adding rim mass) and someone with a pseudo science explanation ("There's like a huge formula to describe how this works!").
We have to bear in mind that people are still fitting magnets to their fuel-lines and swearing that they get better running and improved mileage, and they genuinely believe they are.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the input everyone. I received the stuff today from Amazon. Did more reading. They claim the post office, some police departments, EMS services. uses it. I am going this route because, it is crazy to pay a dealer 20 bucks to break the bead so I can lever the tire off , then pay them 30 bucks to mount it and balance it . Then you have the ugly ass wheel weights. So I bought a set Motion Pro bead breaker tire irons and rim shields. I have already converted the rear to tubeless. 3M tape and Loctite 290. IT IS WORKING WONDERFULLY. Hopefully this stuff will solve the need to stick wheel weights on, improve the resistance to flats, make the tires last longer. See above, 2300 miles is all I got out of the stock tire. No wheelies, no burn-outs, always the proper inflation. I do ride hard, no chicken strips, and I do ride fast. I had previously bought a new rear a couple months ago when it was on sale. I was expecting to get 3500 miles or so out of the stock tires, but not even close. Hopefully my rear to front use ration will be 2:1. We are receiving a lot of rain today, so no opportunity to try it out. Maybe later this week. I'll report back after a week or so. Thanks, again.
 

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Guys I chat with in BMW forum’s use them on the K1600. They seem really happy with them and negated the need for rim weights. I’d read the directions carefully, I think you put the fluid in and fill the tire with the stem at 12 o’clock (by memory). Anyway, don’t think it could hurt anything. let us know what your think!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
You have the install correct. The instructions say to ride about 4-6 miles at 35 to 40 mph for the balance thing to work. They also say if you find a nail or something, pull it out and ride 2-4 miles to warm up the tire for optimal results. I 'll let you know how it works after I get a few miles on it.
 

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I'd love to see an explanation of how these are supposed to balance the wheel. It may sound odd, but everything inside the wheel moves to the point farthest from the axle (centre of rotation). If your tyre has a thin spot on the inside, it will fill, as that's the 'downhill' part. But unbalanced wheels are also caused by rim irregularities, so why would adding a sloshy product help? Well adding 20g of anything distributes 20Kg of additional centrifugal weight around the rim. Heavier rims are less prone to vibration relative to lighter ones, but is this really the best way to address the problem?
If you can find a YouTube video with a genuine scientific explanation let me know. I found a spinning Coke bottle on a drill (simply stabilised by adding rim mass) and someone with a pseudo science explanation ("There's like a huge formula to describe how this works!").
We have to bear in mind that people are still fitting magnets to their fuel-lines and swearing that they get better running and improved mileage, and they genuinely believe they are.
Demo of the principle...uses freeze frame imaging with a strobe to show where the counterweight beads distribute opposite the imbalanced weight:


A more thorough explanation:

Tire at Rest: The beads rest on the tire floor due to gravity.
Tire in Motion: The beads distribute uniformly by friction as the tire begins to rotate, where they are held in place by centrifugal force (F=mv2r), acting perpendicular to the tire wall. Note that beads would remain in this state for a perfectly balanced tire. For completeness, gravity still acts on the beads but is small relative to centrifugal forces.
Heavy Spots in Tire: In this time step it is important to remember that the vehicle's suspension allows the wheel assembly to move vertically- Upward motion is resisted by the car's suspension (spring) while downward motion is assisted by the suspension (spring) and resisted by tire pressure against the roadbed. As the 'heavy spots' in the tire are rotated at higher velocities, their centrifugal (inertial) forces physically move the tire up and down- poorly balanced tires can literally cause 'wheel hop'! As the tire moves (up and down), the beads, with their own masses resisting motion, do not move rigidly with the tire's translation; they move relative to the tire. Note that without vertical movements, only centrifugal forces act on the beads and they maintain their new position on the tire wall.
Imagine a bead when the tire moves up (ie. the 'heavy spot' on top)- Reversed when the tire moves down (ie. 'heavy spot' on bottom):

At the top: As the tire moves up, the bead does not. No longer guided by the tire wall it maintains its tangential velocity until it reestablishes contact at a new tire wall location, further from the imbalance.
At the bottom: As the tire moves up, the bead is lifted with the tire and does not change its location in the tire wall.
On a side between top and bottom: As the tire moves up, the bead rolls down the tire, changing its relative location in the tire wall further from the imbalance.
Reduced Tire Oscillations: Each oscillation (tire movement, up and down) moves the beads progressively further from the imbalance ('heavy spot'), reducing the imbalance. Therefore, the tire becomes more balanced each oscillation until the tire is balanced.
No Tire Vibration: The beads are held by centrifugal force in their balanced state. Because no imbalance exists, there are no vertical movements of the tire to disrupt their positions.

And this explanation is the best I've come across:
Try the following "gendanken" experiment: take a wheel that has serious imbalance - let us say that the true center of mass is 3 inches from the geometric center of the circle. If this tire is spun freely (lets say by tossing it into the air and spinning it) it will rotate about its center of mass. That point is a point displaced 3 inches TOWARDS the heavy side of the wheel. Therefore the heavy side describes a radius 3 inches less than the light side. It is just like the Moon orbiting the Earth. They actually orbit each other about the common center of mass, with the heavier Earth traveling a much shorter radius than the lighter Moon.

Now mount the wheel on a very light, very loosely sprung axle. The spinning wheel will try to spin just as is did before - about its center of mass - forcing the axle to to move in a 3 inch circular path. Note that the heavy side of the wheel is still traveling a shorter radius than the light side.

Now stiffen up the springs holding the axle in place. Things get a lot more complicated because it depends on how stiff the springs are, the relative mass of the components, damping factors etc. -BUT- the center of rotation is still displaced towards the heavy side of the wheel. It will be somewhere along the line between the axle center and the original center of mass of the wheel. And the heavy side will still describe the shorter radius.

Going back to our wheel spinning freely in space, add some ball bearings inside. They are constrained only to lie somewhere on the circumference of the tire. They will congregate towards the largest radius, that being their lowest energy state in the free body system. In doing so they will change the center of mass of the system (and its center of rotation), if they are heavy enough they will distribute themselves in such a way that there is no larger radius to flee to - and your wheel is balanced about its geometric center. Note that this depends on the tire being round - if it is out of round (or, in the real case if the axle is not at the geometric center of the circle) then the wheel will not balance as we define the term.

The ceramic beads sold for this purpose are probably not the best implementation in that they can cause problems inside the tire: breaking up, abrasion, etc. The Centramatic version doesn't have these problems though, and schemes like it are in common use to balance various difficult to balance mechanisms.

Edit: to clarify a little more, as is true in any feedback system, there must be an error signal to keep the system stable. Therefore there will be a small residual imbalance to keep forcing the weights the right direction, account for pertubations and disturbances, etc. A wheel perfectly balanced with weights needs no error signal and will therefore be preferable - as long as is stays perfectly balanced.
 

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And this explanation is the best I've come across:
That "gendanken" experiment explanation is indeed an excellent one, and the principle makes sense. The video is the only one I've seen with any semblance of scientific explanation, which is also excellent.

I doubt I'd ever do this, as I'm happy to add a 5g weight on a rim, but it's certainly a viable solution on a vehicle where you don't want to remove the wheels to balance them properly.

The only downside I see in this is that unless you know what the imbalance weight is, you have no idea how many 'beads' to add. It's like adding 30g of weight all around a wheel to balance it, which might be 5g in one spot, so it distributes the other 25g all around the wheel.

Clever idea though! Thanks for the excellent link!

Cheers,
Jason
 

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Not sure about the sealant bit, and the thought of tape working to convert a wheel would make me nervous... but the Dynabeads, BBs and similar dynamic balancing materials work... that method is used on everything from washing machines to cd-rom drive spindles. It's sound physics.

I wonder if the sealant would take longer to get where it needs to than loose BBs would...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
BMV, I too was leary of the tape sealant in order to go tubeless. However, I did a lot of reading on this forum and an adventure bike forum. The guy with the KTM who has ridden from the lower 48 to Alaska and back , then at Bonneville convinced me it was possible. Search this forum for posts by Caromba. His thread was the first I read. He didn't use the tape, only Loctite 290. His thread chronicles several years of use with only the Loctite 290. I personally think the Loctite 290 will do the deed all by itself, but I added the 3M tape as insurance. 3 weeks ago I rode a flat about 30 miles in the dark to get back to civilization on a Sunday night. Turned on the flashers and motored on about 20 miles an hour. By the time I stopped, the rear tire was smoking. I had a nail in the tire. The tire was toast. I figured the tubeless conversion was toast. But mounted up a new tire, it's been holding 40 psi for 3 days now. It is possible and you can do it. I would much rather have to stop to plug a tire , than change a tube. Now I carry a plug kit ,and a co2 inflator. Never going to get stranded again.
 

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I couldn't agree more about the plug vs replace a tube.. absolutly better.
Is the shape of the tubeless rim bead good enough to hold the tire safely if pressure drops?
I thought tubeless rims had a different shape to hold the tire in place and provide better bead sealing.
Not disagreeing.. this is awesome, and has my attention for sure (I'm not a tubed tire fan..but i love spokes)..just really curious.

Thanks for sharing this :) Looks like i got some reading to do...
 

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Demo of the principle...uses freeze frame imaging with a strobe to show where the counterweight beads distribute opposite the imbalanced weight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ullnFQD4F1I

A more thorough explanation:




And this explanation is the best I've come across:

Well ...the moon doesn’t spin anymore.. that’s why we don’t see the dark side.

The gravitational pull of the earth on the moon’s mountainous side slowed the moons spin to zero over a ’few’ years..

The moon needed more ceramic beads.:wink2:
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yes the wheel itself has the extra hump as if it were designed to be tubeless. I think Triumph weenied(?) out, liability issue I'm sure. I have a pic in my phone of that very detail. Not only the extra hump but between the hump and the inside of edge of the wheel, it is serrated, as if to provide some bite to keep the tire from spinning on the wheel, air pressure or not. I will try to figure out how to post the pic. In the last 4 weeks I have riden at least 50 miles on flats, including in the rain. Tire never even came off the bead.
As an update , I added the Ride-On to the rear tire this evening. By the time I got to the Beltway, maybe a mile or two... the tire seemed to be balanced. Blasted a couple times to ...something north of the legal limit for a few miles. Turned around and came home. I have know idea about the sealant issue , but I am satisfied the balance issue is resolved. No more paying somebody to mount and balance my tires. I have about $70 in the Motion Pro Bead Breaker tire irons, rim shields, and 2 ea.-8 oz. bottles of Ride -On. It seems to have more fibers in it than Slime or Tractor tire sealant from Tractor Supply.
 

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I have Ride-on in 5 bikes at present including some oldtimers, a 47 Vincent being the oldest.
The balancing is superb, just make sure you chuck the existing wheel weights.


It's in the tubes on the older bikes. Ride-on claims it is less effective as a sealant when used in tubes vs tubeless, but will work on many punctures.
As mentioned earlier, it won't work on a ripped tube. Perhaps I've been lucky, however all of the tube punctures I've experienced in the 51 years of riding have been a nail or screw through tire and tube, so the Ride on should have been effective on those punctures, had it been in place.

Since adding Ride on to these various tires I haven't experienced a puncture,
or perhaps I have and the Ride on has done its job.
The dirt bikes are getting the Ride on treatment next

Glen
 

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Motorcycle Consumer News did a test on the balancing beads a couple of years ago and said they were a waste of money. Once installed they checked the state of balance and the state was bankrupt. Don*t know if they ever tried testing tire sealers, but do know they leave a mess for the next tire change. I know of shops that will refuse to change a tire if the is sealant already in there. Try and track down the MCN report.

Bob
 
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