[biker7]

As mentioned in a previous thread, I will be picking up a '09 T-100 which has EFI in the states for '09. Recognizing '09 bikes with EFI are relatively new, has anybody on here installed freeflowing pipes on their EFI bike? If so, what the options for tweaking the air/fuel Map to work with pushing more air through the motor?
I haven't done enough research on the Triumph Bonny EFI to know if it is open or closed loop, i.e. with O2 sensor and therefore wonder if the EFI would compensate for the modest difference in freer flowing pipe backpressure or if a new EPROM is available for the ECM...or piggie back fuel control to add fuel to the existing Map is the best approach as is common on open loop EFI?
Thanks for any advice as uncorking the pipes will likely be one of my very first mods.
George

 

[Calliway]

biker7,
Go buy whatever pipes you like for the efi bike. The TORS for the carb and for the efi are the same part number. Then take your bike to the dealer and they will reflash your computer with a tune to take advantage of the new pipes. It's that easy and it works.

 

[Xchoppers]

Calliway is right
I have a '09 EFI Bonnie with NH Togas and a new tune.
My EFI bike runs GREAT! (much better than stock).
Listen to NH Togas before making your decision.
It's my personal opinion but I really think they sound the best.
There's a couple of good videos of them here on Triumphrat.

 

[biker7]

Thanks Guys.
I am considering performing a Bafflectomy until I get some pipes.
Do you think a reflash is in order for a Bafflectomy?
Lastly...does the Bonny EFI have a bung on their pipes with O2 sensor which is getting more common with the new bikes or is it open loop with no O2 sensor?
Thanks,
George
PS: Kudos to Triumph for creating a flash already for their "off road" pipes.

 

[Xchoppers]

Thanks Guys.
I am considering performing a Bafflectomy until I get some pipes.
Do you think a reflash is in order for a Bafflectomy?

No. Norman Hyde says a new tune isn't required when installing their Togas which I'd think flow better than gutted stock pipes so you shouldn't need a new tune.

Lastly...does the Bonny EFI have a bung on their pipes with O2 sensor which is getting more common with the new bikes or is it open loop with no O2 sensor?

Yes, it uses 2 - O2 sensors, 1 ea. per head pipe.

 

[Calliway]

Yeah, there aren't many exhaust manufacturers who say you need a tune although I think British Custom's and their Predators or Toga style says that they do require a tune.

As far as doing a bafflectomy goes you probably wouldn't need a re-flash but for the 35-40 bucks the dealer would cost to re-flash and the fact that these are air cooled motors I would do the flash.

 

[Scrambler57]

biker7 - when you're ready to pull the trigger on new silencers, check out British Customs Predators and their new toga style ones -stainless steel w/ mechanical baffles. There are several examples on the exhaust sticky forum.

Per Sean at BC, the TORs download works fine for their pipes.

 

[biker7]

Thanks a lot guys. Wow...only $40 for the Eprom reflash? Very reasonable in this day and age if that includes labor. Adding a fuel controller generaly doesn't work well with closed loop FWIW because the O2 sensor is always trying to correct the Map toward the leaner than stoich A/F that comes from the factory on most bikes to meet emissions. Thanks for confirming the new EFI bike has 2, O2 sensors. Good they mounted them on the header pipes and not on the mufflers themselves to allow installation of freer flowing pipes.
Thanks Everybody,
George

 

[biker7]

Yeah, there aren't many exhaust manufacturers who say you need a tune although I think British Custom's and their Predators or Toga style says that they do require a tune.

As far as doing a bafflectomy goes you probably wouldn't need a re-flash but for the 35-40 bucks the dealer would cost to re-flash and the fact that these are air cooled motors I would do the flash.

Agree with you Calliway. Reason being is as you say a combination of being air cooled and the target map from the factory is postured lean to meet emissions. In fact, the reflash may even prove positive if keeping the bottled up stock pipes.
Thanks for your advice,
George

 

[Scrambler57]

warranty issues?

biker7 - Not being tech savvy, I'm not sure if "reflash" and "remap" are the same thing so this may not be relevant.

Anyway, I asked my local dealer's service mgr. whether they're was a remap for installing Predators on the EFI Scrambler I'm planning to get that might dial it in a little better than the one for the TORs. He said that while I could install something like Power Commander and take it to a dyno, it would void the warranty. Besides the warranty issue, he didn't think the gain would be worth the money.

You might want to check with your dealer and see if doing anything other than Triumph's remap for TORs might void your warranty.

 

[biker7]

biker7 - Not being tech savvy, I'm not sure if "reflash" and "remap" are the same thing so this may not be relevant.

Anyway, I asked my local dealer's service mgr. whether they're was a remap for installing Predators on the EFI Scrambler I'm planning to get that might dial it in a little better than the one for the TORs. He said that while I could install something like Power Commander and take it to a dyno, it would void the warranty. Besides the warranty issue, he didn't think the gain would be worth the money.

You might want to check with your dealer and see if doing anything other than Triumph's remap for TORs might void your warranty.

Hi Scrambler,
I can help a bit as I am one of the those tech savy guys but relatively inexperienced with hotrodding Bonnys but a lot of experience with other bikes and cars. Remap versus reflash is analogous of sorts. A reMap is the result of a reflash. ECMs have EPROMs with the fuel and timing Map burned into ROM which can be revised by software. The Map which dictates both fuel and timing is a function of input of all the sensors on the motor. As mentioned above, the stock Map for all bikes for '09 is pre-disposed to run lean of stoich...most aircooled bike motors like about 13.5-13.8 A/F ratio and no doubt to meet emissions which is the purpose of EFI in the states, A/F is leaner than that throughout the RPM range. Running lean causes an aircooled motor in particular to run hot and heat is the enemy of aircooled motors. The dealer will not have a flash specifically available for Preds but word up...it will work fine as likely the flow difference between TORS and Preds is a jump ball...likely more accoustical differences than difference in flow and no doubt the re-flash will be fine for any selection of aftermarket free flowing pipes short of open exhausts.
I can write in detail about fuel controllers...what a Power Commander is. They come in many configurations both for open and closed EFI and notably a hybrid design which converts a closed loop bike like Triumph to open loop. O2 presence is both good and bad. You can't add fuel to a closed loop bike via piggieback controller without the O2 sensor feeding back to the ECM to lean out the mixture. The workaround for this is placing a dummy O2 sensor in each position which tricks the ECM into its default Map. Then fuel can be added with a controller that intercepts the signal between injectors and ECM. There are even controllers out with logic sophisticated enough to subtract fuel as fuel requirements are rarely linear thoughout the RPM range.
Hope that lends some perspective and thanks for your advice,
George

 

[Scrambler57]

George - Thanks a bunch - that was real informative and interesting for an EFI rookie like me!
Greg

 

[biker7]

George - Thanks a bunch - that was real informative and interesting for an EFI rookie like me!
Greg

Your welcome Greg and thanks for the responses about the options available for the '09 bike. One of the things that solidified my purchase was reading all the posts from like minded people here. Many like myself owned early Bonnys growing up and have owned many bikes and have returned to the purity of the Bonneville design which to me is ageless in its appeal. That now applies to me as well. I look forward to learning and sharing what I learn about my new bike along the way.
Best,
George

 

[Calliway]

Nice thing with the Triumphs is you have bi directional communication with the ECu so whether you mean reflash, remap, TOR Tune, tune download you are pretty much talking about the same thing.

If you get a Tuneboy you can actually write maps for you bike and change every aspect of the bikes tune for a complete custom tune. Heck, I plugged mine into my sprint, put the laptop in a backpack and went for a good hard ride and let the Tuneboy record all the data. Then you can start to build from there.

Very powerful tool if you plan on remapping and keeping your bike past warranty. You can do far more diagnostics then the factory tool with a Tuneboy which is darn helpful if you keep the bike past its warranty.

 

[propforward]

Heck I'm starting to like the sound of an EFI bike just to fiddle with it on the computer.

I'd probably screw it up though.

 

[biker7]

Heck I'm starting to like the sound of an EFI bike just to fiddle with it on the computer.

I'd probably screw it up though.

I wanted to hear about how good the '09 EFI Bonny ran before I decided to buy one. I was fine with carbed version because I thought the throttle response was excellent on the one I rode. I have read nothing but rave reviews about the new closed loop EFI Bonny and many that have ridden prefer the EFI bike. When Ducati transistioned to closed loop EFI...many of their bikes stumbled...literally and figuratively. Same with Harley...ran lean and hot. Every report on the EFI Bonny is the driveability is superb so I am excited to get mine on the road. With Victory which were previously open loop and now closed loop, the TPS had to be recalibrated whenever changing the flash and many techs got it wrong. Further many complain about the new closed loop Victory driveability as most mfr's are posturing a lean A/F to meet emissions and the new bikes just don't pull as good or have the same throttle response like the earlier open loop EFI bikes. After hearing that Triumph seemed to nail the calibration of the new Bonny, I want to see for myself.
Best,
George

 

[biker7]

Nice thing with the Triumphs is you have bi directional communication with the ECu so whether you mean reflash, remap, TOR Tune, tune download you are pretty much talking about the same thing.

If you get a Tuneboy you can actually write maps for you bike and change every aspect of the bikes tune for a complete custom tune. Heck, I plugged mine into my sprint, put the laptop in a backpack and went for a good hard ride and let the Tuneboy record all the data. Then you can start to build from there.

Very powerful tool if you plan on remapping and keeping your bike past warranty. You can do far more diagnostics then the factory tool with a Tuneboy which is darn helpful if you keep the bike past its warranty.

Gotta love the lap top interface. Sounds like the tuneboy is a good controller.
Good to have options.
Thanks,
George

 

[Xchoppers]

Nice thing with the Triumphs is you have bi directional communication with the ECu so whether you mean reflash, remap, TOR Tune, tune download you are pretty much talking about the same thing.

If you get a Tuneboy you can actually write maps for you bike and change every aspect of the bikes tune for a complete custom tune. Heck, I plugged mine into my sprint, put the laptop in a backpack and went for a good hard ride and let the Tuneboy record all the data. Then you can start to build from there.

Very powerful tool if you plan on remapping and keeping your bike past warranty. You can do far more diagnostics then the factory tool with a Tuneboy which is darn helpful if you keep the bike past its warranty.

A Tuneboy should be very powerful for $500+
Truth is, it's way overkill for most folks. Unless you intend to be changing stuff all the time it's more than you'll ever need. Even a PC3 is over-kill when you consider a new tune upload works so well.

 

[biker7]

A Tuneboy should be very powerful for $500+
Truth is, it's way overkill for most folks. Unless you intend to be changing stuff all the time it's more than you'll ever need. Even a PC3 is over-kill when you consider a new tune upload works so well.

It is and I wouldn't go there either but for some who want to play with settings from their laptop and change their motor considerably from stock it does offer flexibility away from a re-flash of the Eprom.
Fuel controllers tend to work very well on open loop bikes which do not have the encumberance of feedback from the O2 which is constantly changing the A/F back to the Map. Good news with reflashing the EPROM on a closed loop bike is now the 02 sensor is your friend as the Map is now recalibralibrated closer to stoich and not postured to meet emissions.
George

 

[Xchoppers]

I agree!
For a serious tuner, the Tune Boy appears to be the way to go but for those of us that just want to swap pipes for something with a bit more soul, a new, richer tune from Triumph works fine. I own other bikes I've installed fuel managers on which eliminate the O2 sensor and, while they appear to perform nicely, I don't think their level of tune is as well defined as my '09 Bonnie. With intact O2 sensors and richer tune, the bike just flat runs sweet! No hiccups ever, no decel popping, no hesitations, great sound (w/ NH Togas), it's marvelous!
When a bike runs as nice as this one it's hard to stay off of it.