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Discussion Starter #1
I don't want to start another EFi/carb war, but I rode my 2009 EFI Bonnie for a couple hours today after riding several hundred miles on my carb T100 last weekend. There is no doubt the EFI is smoother, quicker and all around runs better. I have no axe to grind guys - I own and love a lot of Carb'd Triumphs. Go to the dealer and take a test ride and see for yourself.

Dick
 

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That's good to know. I'm looking to pick up a Bonnie sometime this year and wasn't sure if I should get an older carbed version or the new EFI. I hope more EFI owners will post up their comments and views of the new EFI models.
 

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What are we going to talk about on this site if everyone gets FI, no more Iv'e got 195 mains & 62 Pilots & you have only got 140 & 42 Yeah I am the man:p
 

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If you want a stock bike and dont want to do much to it the efi might be the way to go.But the after market hasnt caught up to the carb bikes yet so if you want a faster bike right now and plan on building it up the carb bike is better,there is alot better stuff out there that wont work with the efi bike yet.
 

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the benefit of carbs is ability to diagnose and fix on the side of the road. for the handy, this makes all the difference in the world. if you were going to war, running around the world without a support team/camera crew, or on a budget, then reliance on a social system for a crank sensor, O2 sensor, or engine management module is a bigger problem than a simple dirt in the jet orifice fix or leaking float valve.

if you aren't one who appreciates this difference, then FI is fine.

the KISS principal still remains long term wisdom.

the 2 major success stories were the Model T and the VW Bug designed specifically to benefit the consumer...today the auto industry is in trouble.

think about that.
 

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I don't want to start another EFi/carb war, but I rode my 2009 EFI Bonnie for a couple hours today after riding several hundred miles on my carb T100 last weekend. There is no doubt the EFI is smoother, quicker and all around runs better. I have no axe to grind guys - I own and love a lot of Carb'd Triumphs. Go to the dealer and take a test ride and see for yourself.

Dick
Thanks Dick! As an unhandy guy who just wants to change his own oil, lube his chain, and ride when I get my EFI Scram, I'm happy to hear that from an experienced, mechanically savvy guy who owns both.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
the benefit of carbs is ability to diagnose and fix on the side of the road. for the handy, this makes all the difference in the world. if you were going to war, running around the world without a support team/camera crew, or on a budget, then reliance on a social system for a crank sensor, O2 sensor, or engine management module is a bigger problem than a simple dirt in the jet orifice fix or leaking float valve.

if you aren't one who appreciates this difference, then FI is fine.

the KISS principal still remains long term wisdom.

the 2 major success stories were the Model T and the VW Bug designed specifically to benefit the consumer...today the auto industry is in trouble.

think about that.
I sort of agree: my airplane has a carburetor, all of my other bikes have a carburetor, even my lawnmower has a carburetor. They are simple to tune and diagnose, and cheap and easy for almost anyone to work on. When the constant vacuum carbs first came out (on Hondas in the late 70's - mid 80's ??) there were lots of problems, and anyone who has worked on SU carbs from an English car would no doubt disagree with you. I have **LOTS** of issues with the Amal Monoblocks on my two '66 Bonnies, and often swear I'm going to dump them and install Amal Concentrics like on my '68. My point is 1) as carbs age they become an issue and are very difficult to diagnose and repair and 2) just because you can't easily repair a FI system under a shade tree doesn't make it a bad system if it never breaks, and lastly 3) the FI provides a better riding experience.
My 2009 has a Power Commander on it, and i saw how incredibly easy it was to alter the A/F ratio via a PC/USB cable and dial it in perfectly across the RPM range under varying loads. I've spent more than 40 years tuning Triumph vertical twins - anything from stock to full race - and the future isn't carbs - it is FI. Go ride one - especially one with a Tune Boy or a Power Commander - and tell me it doesn't run smoother and better than your carb bike. I concede you can't fiddle with it in the traditional sense, but you sure can download the myriad of Bonneville specific A/F maps that Power Commander(Dynojet) is posting on their website **for free** to try different A/F ratios.

Dick
 

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Discussion Starter #8
If you want a stock bike and dont want to do much to it the efi might be the way to go.But the after market hasnt caught up to the carb bikes yet so if you want a faster bike right now and plan on building it up the carb bike is better,there is alot better stuff out there that wont work with the efi bike yet.
Yep, I agree with what you say. But the aftermarket guys are really moving fast, and there is lot of EFI experience (including Triumph) that the aftermarket is drawing upon.

Dick
 

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I think when and if someone comes out with bigger throttle bodies and the right map for them and some open pipes with no cat. Then the efi can be made as fast as the carb bikes.carbs and efi on stock bikes dont flow enough air on to feed these motors what they need to make real hp .You buy bigger carbs easy now.EFI dont make alot more hp then flat slide race carbs do anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I think when and if someone comes out with bigger throttle bodies and the right map for them and some open pipes with no cat. Then the efi can be made as fast as the carb bikes.carbs and efi on stock bikes dont flow enough air on to feed these motors what they need to make real hp .You buy bigger carbs easy now.EFI dont make alot more hp then flat slide race carbs do anyway.
Agreed, it is cheaper and easier to make big HP with carbs right now. That may change, and faster than you think because there are a lot of bike EFI systems and clever young people who know the ins and outs of the associated electronics. When all is said and done, EFI won't bring any more horsepower to the party - but it will offer improved rideability and (you may not agree) it is actually really simple. A Kia or Hyundai has EFI. Most people on this board, and the large percentage of Triumph twin riders who aren't on here are interested in fun, reliable riding and not squeezing the last HP out their bikes. I'm an old graybeard who still keeps one magneto on my airplane engine because I don't 100% trust the electronic ignition on the top plugs. I don't have the Boyer electronic ignition on my 60's Triumphs; I prefer the reliable and comprehensible Lucas points and condenser. But I am warming up real quick to the EFI on the 2009 Bonnie :>))

My Kawi W650 used to develop ice in the carburetors during certain weather conditions, and the carb heaters couldn't keep up with the ice that developed in the venturis. Another advantage of EFI : no venturi=no ice.

Dick
 

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What are we going to talk about on this site if everyone gets FI, no more Iv'e got 195 mains & 62 Pilots & you have only got 140 & 42 Yeah I am the man:p
we will have to go over to ECU mapping info.

i have been custom tuned so that at 4000 rpm TP @ 50% i have 9296 Milligrams of air with Ignition advance of 26.8 degrees and a Air/Fuel ratio of 13.5


see what’s the difference:D
 

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> just because you can't easily repair a FI system under a shade tree doesn't make it a bad system if it never breaks,


"if it never breaks" is the operative phrase...pretty much the same theory with condoms and pretty much the same consequenses of you're left holding the baby and there's vomit all over the floor at the most inconvenient time. I've been a mechanic long enough to know better, and I've raised children.

> the future isn't carbs - it is FI. Go ride one - especially one with a Tune Boy or a Power Commander - and tell me it doesn't run smoother and better than your carb bike. I concede you can't fiddle with it in the traditional sense, but you sure can download the myriad of Bonneville specific A/F maps that Power Commander(Dynojet) is posting on their website **for free** to try different A/F ratios.[/QUOTE]


the minute the experimenting is over, the TVs go digital and there's no more free TV...the radios go on subscription payable by monthly fee.

I agree the future is FI, but I'm saying it comes at a cost. the parts sellers have the hook in your mouth and all I'm saying is bite carefully.

the Amish collect horses and aren't effected by $4/gal. gas when other tribes go to war over it.

FI is perfectly fine as long as you know the leash that dog walks on.
 

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I knew when this thread started it would again turn to the "squeeze every drop of power from the bonnie". I love my bonnie and like to tune it to the best of my ability (wallet restrictions). But this was bought as a fun retro bike. You want fast drop the same coin on a 675 daytona. It beat's any modified Bonnie right out the box.
That's why my next bike is a street triple or Tiger. I'll keep the Bonnie just cause I love it. I personally would like to have the EFI on my 07.
 

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the benefit of carbs is ability to diagnose and fix on the side of the road. for the handy, this makes all the difference in the world. if you were going to war, running around the world without a support team/camera crew, or on a budget, then reliance on a social system for a crank sensor, O2 sensor, or engine management module is a bigger problem than a simple dirt in the jet orifice fix or leaking float valve.

if you aren't one who appreciates this difference, then FI is fine.

the KISS principal still remains long term wisdom.

the 2 major success stories were the Model T and the VW Bug designed specifically to benefit the consumer...today the auto industry is in trouble.

think about that.

Geez Modre......You took the words right out of my head! I've only been a pro mechanic for 22 years now and also an electronics tech for almost 39 years and the more I work on vehicles (automotive and HD trucks) the more I realize how many and much of the electronics systems shouldn't be in vehicles because they have poor failsafe and often allow little or no fall-back or local diagnosis and repairability. You're either running fine or walking.....

Will an EFI bike, mechanically sound, run better (with potentially MUCH better fuel economy).....most likely. Will it run that way longer......POTENTIALLY, IF...HIGH quality components, wiring and wiring practices are used throughout. As the number of active devices increases (hundreds of semi-conductors or more within many sealed modules....thousands in processors), so does the probability for failure. The smaller and more sealed those modules become, the more intolerant they become to heat and power spikes.

One selling feature (to me) of my new 07 Bonneville was that it used carbs......IF I could have opted for a mechanical point ignition I would have! I love touring and often ride at night......often out in the middle of nowhere.......I know all about roadside repairability.
A carb with problems will let you know what's going on and most often can get you home. To me, durability, diagnosis and affordable repairability share nearly equal value.......old school I guess.
 

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>pro mechanic for 22 years... electronics tech for almost 39 years and the more I work... the more I realize how many and much of the electronics systems shouldn't be in vehicles because they have poor failsafe and often allow little or no fall-back or local diagnosis and repairability. You're either running fine or walking.....

>One selling feature (to me) of my new 07 Bonneville was that it used carbs......IF I could have opted for a mechanical point ignition I would have!

EXACTLY...the guys with hands are looking at this marketing/consumer technology and saying, "personally, give me the one I have a better chance of trusting in the ugly". I love a carb and points in the middle of the boonies... chances are better I can get back home with only a swiss army knife.

but if you can't do that in any case, I guess it really doesn't matter either way...this discussion just should allow for the guys who know what they're talking about and not be run by guys who are addicted to performance and hp at all cost as if that's the single goal of internal combustion.

we fear the fools are going to run the world astray and amuck and not listen to wisdom and reason. the cockroaches who survive the end of the human era are points and carb guys too...they snicker at hall effect sensors and diodes in general.
 

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All 5 of my motorcycles are fuel injected.
I owned a long list of carburetted bikes before them and having always made modifications to my machines, i got as good as most folks about tinkering with carbs.
Given a choice, I'll NEVER go back to carburettors.
Tuning with a lap top computer or an electronic fuel manager is so much easier and faster than screwing around with carburettors.
It's also much easier for a novice with no experience with either systems.
EFI is why I purchased my new '09 Bonneville. If it was still carburetted I wouldn't have bought it.
I'm an engineer who appreciates modern technology and I find with EFI i have no need for "road side" tinkering. Cumulatively I have over 46,000 miles on my current EFI equipped motorcycles.
All miles have been trouble free. :D
 

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Seems to me that its horses for courses. I own an efi T100 it does ride better than a carbed one for sure. I am happy with that as I don't do "serious" long distance middle of nowhere touring on that bike - its my dayride bike and I have roadside assistance insurance.

I do however go long distance multi country European touring (often camping in very remote areas) for that purpose I ride my old airhead BMW with carbs - but it still has electronic ignition which would be the most likely failure that I couldn't fix by the roadside.

If we are honest there are plenty of failures other than an efi system going down that would fox many people - sometimes even rear wheel punctures (and more likely) can require some folks to call for assistance!

I've owned more bikes than I can keep track of - most with carbs, many Triumphs and for me and my requirements from a bonnie efi is great (40 years as a professional engineer - you can't hold back progress)
 

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>I'm an engineer who appreciates modern technology and I find with EFI i have no need for "road side" tinkering...All miles have been trouble free. :D[/QUOTE]

and my wish for you is that you never suffer a glitch to tarnish that optimism.
Tracy Ca is on a fault surrounded by 20 Million people who are going to want water.

you're obviously living in denial and a gambling kind of guy to begin with.

>you can't hold back progress

yes, that's true, but,
"the 2 major success stories were the Model T and the VW Bug designed specifically to benefit the consumer...today the auto industry is in trouble."

think about that harder...maybe with an umbrella drink.

pro-gress n.
1. Movement, as toward a goal; advance.
2. Development or growth: students who show progress.
3. Steady improvement, as of a society or civilization: a believer in human progress. See synonyms at development.
4. A ceremonial journey made by a sovereign through his or her realm.

intr.v. pro·gress (prə-grĕs'), -gressed, -gress·ing, -gress·es.
1. To advance; proceed: Work on the new building progressed at a rapid rate.
2. To advance toward a higher or better stage; improve steadily: as medical technology progresses.
3. To increase in scope or severity, as a disease taking an unfavorable course.

and there-in lies the rub.
 

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some very good points on efi .I have been a mechanic since 1976 and have seen the good and the bad of efi.LiKE OTHERS SAID ITS GREAT WHEN ITS WORKING.But when its not you better call a tow truck.Then there is that problem that only shows up now and then and never when its in the shop to be fixed.I will keep my carbs for now.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Jeezus, I knew I shouldn't have started this thread...

I too am a degreed engineer, I hold an FAA Airframe and Powerplant Repairmans certificate (A&P) with IA (Inspection Authorization). I can diagnose, repair and sign off work done to commercial aircraft that carry your families 8 miles above the earth, so I know something about the value of reliability and outcome of risk. I've built 3 Experimental airplanes and race them at Reno, so I may be a bit more accepting of personal risk than some, but when I ride one of my T100's from SoCal to my summer home in Montana later this year it will be on the EFI bike.
I might even cheat death and ride through Tracy to see if Xchopper will offer me a drink of water.

I gotta' go now and start a WD-40 chain lube or best oil thread....

Dick
 
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