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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just took the silencers off , and yes definately cats in the tubes where the welds are on my 09 efi .
No penetration could be achieved with a 10mm rod at the weld point .
This should be easy enougth to spike out ?? whats everyones opinions on this??
 

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On a lot of cars these pre-cats are made of a ceramic honeycomb structure. Once they break, particles can get sucked back into the engine which is bad news.
If thinking of removal we have to ensure that the entire thing is taken out and no loose particles remain.
 

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Cats

Just took the silencers off , and yes definately cats in the tubes where the welds are on my 09 efi .
No penetration could be achieved with a 10mm rod at the weld point .
This should be easy enougth to spike out ?? whats everyones opinions on this??
Are you saying you can't get a 3/8 rod past the weld on your header pipe from the silencer end? Is this bike here in the states or elsewhere.
I've put a 5/8 airhose thru my pipes and looked past the weld with a bore scopeand saw nothing. Is you bike assembled in Asia or GB? Could this be the difference. Look at your serial number and tell me if there is a T in the middle .
When I looked in the bore with the bore scope on my pipes, only weld penetration visable there.
Could the 10MM(.393) diam rod have hung up on the seam due to the first bend not letting the rod bend away from the weld? Please check again and let me know.
Thanks in advance...Frank
 

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I ran a piece of chain in one end and out the other of the right header on my 50th Anniversary Bonneville (header off the bike)

??

Dick
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
re

uk owner , serial number starts smttj and there is a G in the middle of numbers .
From silencer end its blocked at 17 inches with a cat , i also used a flexible coarse fishing rod end with eye end 10 mm and tried various moves to find a hole , this was not jamming on a weld, and the pipe is straight and has a long way to go before turning upwards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
re

just ran a 1/4 inch cane up there , you can feel there is a solid disc there blocking , god knows how the bike exhaust gases .
 

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The trend that seems to have emerged since day one when discussion about cats in headers came up...without any solid data and just anecdotal reports is...European bikes have pre-cats in the headers and US bikes don't. I haven't done this test on my EFI stateside bonny but have not seen any discoloration at the pre-cat weld seam under the motor. This issue may obtusely coincide with the difference in emission control laws between the two places...being mindful that carbed bonnies replete with EFI tank were still shipped to the US in '08 and bonnies were EFI in Europe in '08...perhaps to meet more stringent polution standards.

For those is Europe that read this thread...can we get a concensus as to discoloration down by the seam where the cat may reside? One would think the cat "may" change the heat sink characteristics of the pipe locally and change the color of the chrome where the cat is. My US bike has no discoloration at the the bottom header weld seam by contrast to Phil's bike.
George
 

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that makes since to me they use the same headers on both bikes but the euro bikes must get cats pushed in them .CATS are very high $$$ so they prob dont need them to pass usa standards so they dont put them in us bikes.If you uk guys want them out i bet you can beat them to peaces with a steel rod then run the bike with stright pipes and blow the peaces out .If you run stright throw mufflers anything left in there will blow out the back of the mufflers.they go to peaces when you beat on them .I hear some have done that to there cars lol (wink)
 

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A few yet unanswered questions Mike as you know. The weld seam under the engine is a clear departure in header mfg. practice compared to all preceding carbed years which were mandrel bent tubing in one piece. It could be speculated that the new pipes might be slightly larger to compensate for the screen door effect of the pre-cats...or this would make sense and the only reason to add an expensive welding operation to the production of the headers IMHO. What is difficult to fathom would be the manufacturing process for chroming the headers which would be preceeded by welding in the pre-cat. Most sport bikes that have pre-cats in the headers are unplated or preplated steel that gets covered by a fairing. Chroming as most know is invasive and requires dunking the header into a cathodic bath which would destroy the pre-cat unless there was almost a hermetic seal on each end of the header pipe. Maybe this can be accomplished successfully without tainting the honeycomb cross-section of the pre-cat but would add clear difficulty. Finish drilling and tapping of the O2 sensor bung would be no problem after chroming however...bung being welded in place prior to chrome and the bung would seal off the header for dipping at the sensor without a drilled hole. Tapping after chrome is best for thread engagement.

Below is a picture of Buckshot's Texas bike which shows more bluing on an EFI bike than I have ever seen. The bike shows AI injection intact and if you look close a localized band of discoloration just before the weld seam. It would be interesting to compare this discoloration at the seam with the position of Phil's discolored section. If it matchs...maybe an argument that a pre-cat bike made its way to the US. :)
In any event, I am uncertain if my US bike has pre-cats but based upon all the input from those I respect, I suspect it does not.
We are learning about the new bonnies together,
George
Buckshot's Texas bike below:
 

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I have seen some stock bikes with carbs blue the pipes like his did.that bottom blueing is where the crossover pipe use to be on older bikes have the new bikes got one?
 

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I ride my bike pretty hard, and commute with it every day. Occasionally I will get stuck in a traffic jam, and in south texas that usually results in a very hot engine. The temperatures this spring and summer have been really hot, over 100F every day for over two weeks now. The majority of my bluing came about after the weather heated up, so I don't know if it's due to having a precat or just being really hot. Biker7, I have been reading all of your posts on the EFI engines with great interest, thanks for doing the pioneering. Mikeinva, you are correct, the rearmost bluing is where the crossover attaches. I've been thinking about having my headers ceramic coated, but the bluing is starting to grow on me:)

Russ
 

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early uk efi

guys, my tuppence worth,

My efi T100 is an early one, you can see the old style hub in the rear wheel. It has the blue-ing round the welded bulge, where some kind of obstruction also exists (it also has a crossover pipe there) however, if you look at the wee video I did of my bike running with no silencers (on another thread) there doesn't seem to be much of an obstruction.

I'm sort of committed to seeing if they fail, following my Ai removal, so I'll persist with that for now (in the interests of science :D) but I'm getting more inclined to getting an old carb'd type set of pipes and having my O2 sensors welded in.
 

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A few yet unanswered questions Mike as you know. The weld seam under the engine is a clear departure in header mfg. practice compared to all preceding carbed years which were mandrel bent tubing in one piece. It could be speculated that the new pipes might be slightly larger to compensate for the screen door effect of the pre-cats...or this would make sense and the only reason to add an expensive welding operation to the production of the headers IMHO. What is difficult to fathom would be the manufacturing process for chroming the headers which would be preceeded by welding in the pre-cat. Most sport bikes that have pre-cats in the headers are unplated or preplated steel that gets covered by a fairing. Chroming as most know is invasive and requires dunking the header into a cathodic bath which would destroy the pre-cat unless there was almost a hermetic seal on each end of the header pipe. Maybe this can be accomplished successfully without tainting the honeycomb cross-section of the pre-cat but would add clear difficulty. Finish drilling and tapping of the O2 sensor bung would be no problem after chroming however...bung being welded in place prior to chrome and the bung would seal off the header for dipping at the sensor without a drilled hole. Tapping after chrome is best for thread engagement.

Below is a picture of Buckshot's Texas bike which shows more bluing on an EFI bike than I have ever seen. The bike shows AI injection intact and if you look close a localized band of discoloration just before the weld seam. It would be interesting to compare this discoloration at the seam with the position of Phil's discolored section. If it matchs...maybe an argument that a pre-cat bike made its way to the US. :)
In any event, I am uncertain if my US bike has pre-cats but based upon all the input from those I respect, I suspect it does not.
We are learning about the new bonnies together,
George
Buckshot's Texas bike below:
My headers are blued in a similar position, however buckshots look to be more influenced by the high temps he has encountered if you take into account the heat pattern right down to the second bend. The heat pattern on mine is straw/light blue up to first bend and then clean until the pre cat location and the strong blueing which is very local to the cat.

As for chroming, not too difficult to chrome with the pre-cats in place so it is a likely scenario.
Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
re

Biker 7 , my 09 efi has not yet got bluing in the area of the pre cat seams !! 700 miles .
Mike yes there is still a crossover pipe .
John , yes i also started the bike with silencers off , and there does not seem to be much obstruction to airflow . so it would seem iresponsible of me to remove them re saving the enviroment .But i cannot see how a tiny bit of unburnt fuel could escape a hot exhaust anyhow ?? the drips from the nozzle at the garage that fall to the floor when folk refuel their cars must be more of an issue surely in this mad world!! i would smack out the pre cats if that meant i could upset the do gooders if this world that get worse every year with telling others how to live their lives .
Anyway i missed the postman yesterday , so im hoping my preds get delivered today in time for the British classic bike meet tonight .
 

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A bit more concensus has perhaps emerged based upon our discussion. Phil's bike with pre-cats has less overall bluing but a distinct 3 inch band of bluing down at the pre-cat and Buckshot's bike which has clearly experienced higher heat in Texas rush hour traffic as he explained has less discoloration down at the weld seam. Based upon Phil's input, presence of pre-cats will indeed create the localized 3 inch band of bluing next to the weld seam over time.

What to do about all this?
If you have pre-cats which European bikes seem to have...
They flow OK now but unsure what will happen over time if removing AI...Johny is taking this on for the team :) with fuel being dispelled out the cylinders due to AI removal. Its this interaction that may plug them but nobody really knows the time horizon for this and likely would be variable based upon riding habits if the pre-cats even get plugged at all. The first thing I would do is try to ream them out. This has to be a bit tricky because of the kick up in back of the header but perhaps it will be learned a small diameter rebar could be used to smash the cats out. The lip for retaining the honeycomb may still be left in place however as this is likely welded into position and captured between the front and rear sections during what probably is a robot weld around the circumference.

Cleanest workaround and what I would likely do if I had them and couldn't do the smash and ream?
Johny...I would simply find earlier headers as you mention, keep AI off of course which will not be going back on my bike anyway and install a Power Commander. This would include the bonus of improved fueling and no need for O2 sensor bungs on the pipes.

Hopefully our data base will continue to grow as more EFI owners on both sides of the pond input their findings but as it stands right now there is mounting evidence that European spec bonnies have pre-cats and US spec bikes don't...and difference is likely due to what Mike pointed out...the cost of pre-cats if not required to meet emission standards in the US.
Cheers,
George
 

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I have a '09 EFI black bonne, and my pipes look exactly like buckshots. The bike has 2500 miles on it. Most of the mileage is from in town commuting and I live in Vermont where it just barely started getting to summer-like tempertures. I thought I was the only one with these very colorful pipes.
 
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