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Does it matter Rexx?? Aren't they intrinsically the same motor?
 

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When I had my first ECM blow, I ran my engine with a 04ST tune on my 02 Daytona motor. It actually had a VERY strong bottom end, but it would cut out at about 7K so i didnt push it even close to that far. (Just enough to get to the dealership)

If you load a daytona tune on a S3 motor, it would be POSSIBLE to blow it up since the redline would be past the 9500 of the S3 motor, if it would even rev that high...

Does the 02 Daytona redline at 11000 or 10500?


You know that the motor is a 02 by the way the headers fit....To make sure that the rods and pistons are forged(off a daytona) and not cast(S3) i do not know...
 

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My first thought would be that he simply did not load the correct tune. Second thought is you are just using the "identify tune" function & it is reporting as the base tune (10152) but the actual tune is something different.

Most recognizable difference is Speed Triple engine cases are all black - Daytona Motor has raw cast aluminum. But then I think the Sprint does too?
So if the motor is silver (black covers) then either Daytona or Sprint.
I can also tell you that the stator cover is different (and indeed stator itself is different) in an S3 (or Sprint) to a Daytona and also the sump is different.
Might be easy enough to pull the stator cover & check the part number - Daytona will be either T1260112 or T1260008. I don't have access to the S3/Sprint number right now - won't be home till end of week. But it is obviously different number to those two.
 

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The engine revs to 10,500.
With the correct Daytona (10178) tune, the fuel cut begins at 10,800 and completely cuts at 11,000

On the 10152 the fuel starts to cut at 9550 and completely cut at 9700.

The fact that you can rev to 10,500 says you do NOT have a std 10152 tune.

Are you actually uploading the tune to your laptop & looking at it or just using the "identify map" from the tools menu?

Read the map form the ECU and save it as (some name).dat. Then compare the variables in the cells with several of the stock maps to see what you have. It should be pretty obvious - the cells in the S3 map only go up to 9500 and in the Daytona to 10,800.


Under the "edit" tab, check the 'rev limit' for starters.
 

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Discussion Starter #106
This Padawan Sits in your presence

Thank you DEcosse,

You correctly guessed that I had looked no further than the identify tune option when you send off for the unlock key.

I will go and upload the tune tonight and have a look. I think I will wait a while before I head for the stator casing, although it does have a small scratch that needs filling and painting :eek:

I definitely have a silver motor.... I wanted the bike to look as standard as possible, so I turned down a black motor that Sandy could have fitted earlier.

The 10,500 rev limit was my change up. I didn't take it to the fuel starve point.

At least now I can do some investigating.

Thanks!

Rexx
 

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Discussion Starter #107 (Edited)
TuneBoy upload

Okay, I managed to get the tune from the bike after a few false starts.... Antivirus software getting in the way!

Here it is



I think that the fact that the fuel map goes to 10801 makes it a Daytona.

Looking at the rev limit settings, they seem to match your list!

Kills all fuel at 11,000
Increase fuel cut 10,900
Start to cut fuel 10,800
Restart normal fuel 10,700

Guess I can relax

This tune look familiar DEcosse?

Rexx
 

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It looks to be 10179 - "Daytona 955i from VIN 132513 with aftermarket
exhaust and secondary air injection fitted."

I didn't look any further after finding that fuel map seems pretty much exactly what you have in your image.

Do you have the SAI on your motor? I didn't think so (looked back through the thread & didn't see it one way or the other mentioned) but maybe you do - I think if you have an SAI tune but not fitted it would throw a MIL because it wouldn't see the valve connected? The SAI or not must be 'hidden' in hard code (similar to the gas gauge feature).
On that note - when Wayne melded in the Massive map to the Sprint map - did he use an SAI or non-SAI map as the base? Important you have that aligned with the final result.
You really want to ditch the SAI, as Massive did not accommodate for that and blank off the ports to match up with the Massive Tune - then you also need to review with Wayne if Sprint base map was non-SAI.

I think you need to remove/disable the SAI (if it is there) before you install the Massive.

I'm still a little confused myself on the gas gauge & SAI options - there is nowhere I can see in Tuneboy editor where you can toggle these functions so on the SAI, I assume (as aforementioned) it's hard-coded in that rev of map. But with the gas gauge, the Speed triple & Sprint maps are common so it must permanently reside in those maps & makes no difference whether gauge is actually connected or not?

Regardless, you're going to see big differences when you get to the Massive tune - get it in there man! :D

You might want to try riding with the Massive Map as-is before you take it to the dyno. I'm pretty confident you're not going to hurt anything.

Incidentally I will be in S. Wales 3rd through the 6th of March. It would be nice to connect but not sure if it will be possible. I have a client with me on way out there on Monday morning (& it will obviously be in middle of day) then on way back on the Thursday it will be in morning. Ah well, the thought was there.
 

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Rexxy, you are going to end up with one sweet bike when you finish. Congratulations to doing such a nice conversion and thanks for writing about it.
And hats off to DEcosse for his expertise.

:bighand:
 

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Discussion Starter #113
SAI and other thinnkings

Hi DEcosse,

thanks for all those thoughts, I'll try and make sure I answer them all.

Wayne Tune.
I sent Wayne the two massive tunes, and told him what year and vin my ST was. Wayne took the correct ST tune for my bike and embedded the massive values. The way I see it in my simplistic mind is that the tune figures are held in a pre-addresssed envelope, and that the addressing on the envelope deals with the likes of the Fuel guage etc, but the contents of the letter are for the engine. So I have an envelope addressed to the ST with a letter instructing the engine to run as a Daytona. Can't be any clearer than that.... sorry.

SAI
Okay, now you are really seeing the limit of my knowledge. First SAI? = Secondary Air Injection? Something to do with making the exhaust fumes look less poluted with unburnt hytdrocarbons by bleading air into the exhaust at certain times (idle?). If that's correct, then you have reached the limit of my knowledge, if it's wrong then we went past that boundary some time ago!! :D Mind you, this contradicts where I think I have seen SAI mentioned in other threads as being in the airbox!!

My bike is running the standard ST airbox. As far as I am aware, Sandy didn't change that, and the motor just slotted into the frame and picked up all the ST fittings. The only thing that needed doing was the exhaust, and that was because I was NOT going to try and get that athelete of an engine breathing out through a straw - seems pointless fitting the engine and then making it use the ST exhaust ;).


So does the 04 ST have SAI as standard?
Where would you find it/ How would I check?
How do I disable it?
What is the impact on tune/fuel of having SAI enabled?

MIL Light.
Nope, not had one of those at all. Bike runs perfectly (touch head)!
I haven't looked at the error codes stored - I will have a look tonight, but I assumed that as there was no MIL light, there were no error codes. Does that mean that the ECU can store 'advisory' error codes that are not sufficiently threatening to light the MIL?

Wales Visit.
It would be great to meet, and buy you a beer or two to say thanks for all your expertise. I am at work that week, but if you pick a day (they're all reasonably clear at the moment), I am more than happy to take some of my flex time and meet up somewhere, day or evening!

Rexx
 

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Here is a good thread with some excellent pics of the SAI system & how it is removed & blanked off. You should see the manifold in front of the plug sockets.
Sandy may have just grabbed the first Daytona tune he had access to - or he may have re-installed SAI on the Daytona if it originally had it on the Sprint?
The issue would be that if an SAI tune is installed but SAI is NOT physically connected (the valve) then ECM should post an error & illuminate the MIL. So no light would conceivably suggest that SAI is installed .
If you have no light, then either you HAVE SAI or the light is not working - that's why I would suggest a) checking to see if SAI is there & b) checking for any stored errors.

I would suggest that you ask Wayne which tune (number) he based the implant on. Hopefully non-SAI as the Massive tunes are non-SAI. The fuelling is different for SAI vs non, as well as disabling/enabling the valve.

Then if you have SAI, I would recommend you remove it and blank it off per the thread referenced above. Having SAI is going to complicate the process as far tuning goes to accommodate for it. Blanking plates should be really easy to make for a man of your wherewithall!
 

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Discussion Starter #115
Sai

Hi DEcosse.

Rummaging through my Ficheman parts disc I came across this. It seems to match the pictures at the start of the thread you found for me...



As my vin is in range,I have to assume I have it and it is being used.

What does it do to the fuelling, and how might it effect the Massive tune?

Being pragmatic here for a second, I have to alter the massive tune to deal with the compromise of the Custom exhaust and the ST airbox. Would I be better leaving the SAI in place and modifying the ST/massive hybrid to deal with the SAI?

I have two reasons for this....

1. I believe that Wayne would have used the correct tune for my ST as the base, and it will therefore be based around having an SAI

2. I won't have time before Monday to do the work as shown in that thread

What do you think?

Rexx
 

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Discussion Starter #117
Tune Comparison

Hi DEcosse et al,

I exported 10179 (SAI) and the corresponding 10181 (non-SAI) as csv files and compared them in Excel.

There is no difference between them according to Excel, and I have manually compared as well. I am starting think that the SAI switching is part of the 'envelope' information and not fuelling. I will have a look at some of the other map tabs and see if there are any other areas that may be different.

Wayne has used 10171 as the envelope to carry the Massive 2 tune figures, which is ST with SAI and Aftermarket exhaust (as per my bike), so I don't think having the SAI is going to compromise the tune as it appears that the fuelling is not altered by having SAI.

Learning from you, and thinking this through with you has given me a base of assumptions around the SAI and my idea of different tune 'envelopes' and I will test these assumptions/understandings on Monday re SAI/ fuel gauge etc and let you know.

On balance, I am going to leave the SAI in place at this stage and go with The hybrid envelope/tune. I may at a later date remove the SAI and deal with the tune change, but other than a small (16oz) weight loss, I can't see any performance benefit to it.

With a bit of persistance, by the end of Monday I should then have the bike equivalent of the WW1 Q-ships! I'm already surprising a number of so-called superbikes away from lights! Next step - Suspenders, but I'm getting ahead of myself :D

Thanks again for the patience to walk through and teach me. I hope there are others out there that will use this thread to take their lively STs and give them teeth!!!

I still think that £900 (engine+tune - although in my case insurance covered this) + £100 (exhaust) + £70 (dyno) is still real value for an additional 30bhp and should be added to the cheap mods sticky ;)

Any thoughts about meeting up at some point... at the very least I owe you a beer :icon_drink:

Rexx
 

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Discussion Starter #118 (Edited)
Where are my horses?

So here finally is the report back on the Dyno session last Monday morning. Not as productive as I hoped.:(

Part 1 – Standard Daytona Tune (10179 – late model Daytona with aftermarket can and SAI)

So the Dyno guy set the bike up and did a series of 4 runs on the system, ¼, ½, ¾ and full throttle, and then put up the results…..

First the good news, the compromise of ST airbox and ST style (But Daytona bore) exhaust were not doing any harm on the fuelling side of things, but……



105bhp. WHERE ARE ALL MY HORSES? :eek:

When I checked with the operator he said this was corrected flywheel bhp…. WHAT 105? That’s less than an ST motor. Talking to the owner of the business as I paid later I was told that no, it is corrected rear wheel horsepower…. Who to believe?

Well, doing some thinking over the last week I have come to the conclusion that the owner was right it is rear wheel power. Why?
  • The engine is running the Daytona tune, and I don’t believe that Sandy would fit the wrong engine.
  • The bike feels faster than the ST did, and had a different delivery characteristic.
  • The peak power results are at 9000 rpm – extrapolate the approximately straight line (15bhp/1000rpm) for another 1500 rpm to 10,500rpm and you will reach 127bhp – The operator didn’t know Triumphs very well, and was leery of taking it to the limiter, in spite of my saying go for it. 120bhp at the rear wheel would equate to roughly 15% losses from 150bhp at crank. This feels about right for normal transmission losses and some constriction due to my setup.
So I believe that he had it set to rear wheel power, but I realise that because this is a dyno-jet machine that there is another fiddle factor at play in there somewhere.


Part 2 – Hybrid ST/Massive3 tune

Well this was a real struggle. It didn’t want to fire at all. When it was coaxed into life, it was showing so weak on the idle that the dyno simply showed the leanest value it could 19!

We used TuneBoy to increase the fuel mix in the low end by 10% (blind leading blind at this point – I’ve never used TuneBoy in anger, and he'd never seen it before) and it still didn’t want to run. In fact it wasn’t keen to turn over even. So much so that the Operator got a booster pack. It spluttered and coughed and required a twist of throttle to run. Once off idle it ran, but it would not idle. As soon as the 10179 Daytona tune was replaced it fired first time off the battery alone. It was interesting to watch the management system playing with the mix at idle to settle the engine down. You could clearly see it happening on the mixture meter, but it couldn’t keep the ST/Massive tune running at all, and we were both very wary of trying to get it to run this.

I bottled out of trying the massive tune on it’s own because of the SAI, and we had run out of time

So all in all, not the morning I had hoped for. :(

On the plus side I know the fuelling isn’t too far off the mark and won’t damage the engine. I’ve also learned the correct way to get TuneBoy to talk to the bike.

Laptop on - cable connected both ends - fire up software - turn ignition on.

Works like a charm

On the bad news side, I still have no fuel gauge and I’ve not got rid of that flat spot up to 6000rpm. So what next?

My dilemma centres on the SAI. If I loaded the Massive tune that has no SAI what would that do to the bike?

I know from comparing the SAI (10179) and corresponding non-SAI (10181) tunes that there is no difference in the fuel maps, so what would having a non-SAI tune on an SAI fitted bike do?

I am going to mail Wayne this, and see what he thinks may be the problem with the ST/Massive tune.

I want to try and put the massive fuelling figures into the SAI tune (10179) and load that. I guess I shall give up on having a fuel gauge and replace it with a voltage gauge instead.

Thoughts anyone?

Rexx

BTW, how do I get the dyno chart showing large? It's in my albums, and I managed it somehow with the bike sideview, but I can't seem to do it now?
 

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(Just paste the link for the thumbnail then delete the 'thumbs' part of the URL string)

The one thing I always say is don't get hung up on the abolute number - dynos are all different as are environmental conditions etc and what is important is that you get the most out of it with the best shape under the curve and good fuelling.

Can't speculate on what's going on with that hybrid map - I think Wayne is going to be your best bet to determine what is going on with it - can you send it to me so I can take a look? It might have been an idea to try the standard massive map & see how that fared (you might still try that at your house & see if it at least runs)

Still think you should get rid of the SAI.

Note that a lot of the power will come from the timing map so if you transpose values make sure you take care of that too.

It doesn't look like the guy did any tuning, just run the thing? Having got it on there, why not try to at least peak the original tune? The fueling looks horrible, especially at the bottom end and the typical 4-6 range could be richer. But there's no full plot for the full throttle run so hard to tell what's going on in the mid section, for fuel, torque & power.

That's too bad it wasn't an instant success, but you still have the tools to do what you need to do.
You can either
1) Have Wayne resolve the hybrid map issue then load & optimize that
2) Junk the SAI, run the std massive map & optimize that
3) Start with a stock Sprint map (to give fuel gauge), - SAI or non - your choice - then transpose fuelling & timing values similar to those in massive to start with, then optimize on the dyno.

I'll play with #3 option & see what I can come up with for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #120
Next Steps

No, there was no tuning done.

We actually did two straight runs of the same tune (first load didn't do anything) so the two sets of plots were exactly the same. Only noticed this when I saw the fuel needle maxed out as per normal.

Neither the dyno guy or I have played with a tune on a Sprint. He was destinctly nervous of the fact that it was changed on the PC and downloaded. He was very much a Jap 1000 + PC3 man.

When he showed me the fuelling and talked about the bottom end peaks, he said they were normal for the dyno, and all they were reflecting was the momentary leaning off as the electronics responded to his cracking the throttle. Have to say that I was a little dubious of this as it seems quite a delay.

I say again, this was his first ever Triumph and he really didn't seem that comfortable with it.

I will have a chat with Wayne, but mean time I will send you a copy of the hybrid.

I think I will take a look around for another dyno place. They really weren't keen on the software, and I need to sit down and spend some time with it.

I think I will do the Massive values into the 10179 tune and see what turns up.

I wonder if Wayne left the timing chart as per the ST? Something to investigate.

Just how complex is it to remove the SAI and what parts would I need to get hold of? there seemed to be some custom alloy plates being used, and something to plug the airbox. Do you need to do anything to the lead?

Rexx

Thanks for the feedback. PM on its way
 
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