Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

21 - 40 of 133 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #21
Thanks for the picture DEcosse. I've done some rummaging around the web and formed a composite. Unfortunately I don't have the software to overlay, but there are a couple of potential issues I can see.....



First off is that the pipe does run higher if you use the wheel centre as a marker you can see what I mean

Second, and more worrying is that from the header back, the pipe runs a totally different way, round the outside of the chassis leg. On the ST it stays along the centre line and above the centre stand. Also I would like to keep it looking as standard as possible, so I would need to engineer in some sort of join like the ST, where the pipe can be rotated to drop the can for the boxes. Hmmm, I think this might be a challenge.

How different is the end can? Bearing in mind that my end can is pre '02 and has no direct baffles (I was going to do the mufflerectomy, and found that I could see straight through!) will it strangle the engine given back of *** packet calc gives me a flow of 168cfm @10000 and [email protected],000?

I'm thinking of using the ST can, cutting the Daytona and ST headers shortly after the 3-1 join and taking the header section of the Daytona pipe and joining on the remaingin section of the ST pipe to to bring it along the original path!

the other thing I need to check is the diameter of the ST can pipe vs that of the Daytona. No point in even thinking about this if the pipe diameter doesn't allow a constant diameter link pipe.

What do you think?

Rexx :(

[ This message was edited by: RexxyPup on 2007-07-06 07:34 ]
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #22
Grrr,

just had a good old chat with Sandy at Triumph-ant who has identified a couple of issues. We have the logistics of getting a link pipe made up as he doesn't have the kit and he is north of Cardiff while I am 80 miles away in Swindon.

One solution is for the Daytona engine to be built by Sandy with my ST exhaust on, and shipped back to me with me having bought a Daytona Header as well, and then get a link pipe made up (I could probably then sell the ST header), but what tune does Sandy put into this Daytona-with-ST-pipes hybrid to make it run?

Once I have got the modified exhaust fitted, what tune should be put into the final Daytona engine? Sandy says the Daytona pipe is a larger bore than the ST, so using the ST end can will affect it, and even using the Daytona end can, the curved link pipe rather than the straight run that the Datytona, has will also change things.

If a Daytona tune is used I will loose my fuel gauge as that tune doesn't have a capacity to run a fuel gauge.... not too much of a worry as it is not that useful.

Can Tuneboy be used to switch the Fuel gauge signal back on in the Daytona Map, or can the ST map be modified with the Massive midrange tune values to give me the result?

What do you think?

Rexx :( :???:

[ This message was edited by: RexxyPup on 2007-07-06 08:21 ]
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
Had a pleasant Friday afternoon in the local dealers, measuring Daytona and ST pipes.

The good news is the cans appear to be pretty much the same (couldn't check the internals :-D ) Length, Diameter and bore of entry pipe.

The bad news is the Daytona 3-1 header runs further back under the engine before it becomes 1. I think this means so surgery to the lower belly pan, but I will have to make up some cardboard mocks to check this.

The second piece of bad news is that because the 3-1 is longer than the ST, the point where you can cut the 1 part and make a link is also much further back. My plan was to kink the pipe back in towards the centreline, then back out and up towards the pipe from the ST end can. A bit of modification to remove the reduced section of pipe from the end can and "bob's your uncle" etc. Unfortunately, this kink in and kink out is looking like 45deg in , 22.5deg back, and 30deg kick up in quite a short run. Does this sound pretty restricting?

It might be possible to run the pipe like the Daytona, but I'd loose the adjustment for panniers and I think I would have to remove the centrestand.

What do you think?

Rexx
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
22,062 Posts
On 2007-07-09 02:25, RexxyPup wrote:
The good news is the cans appear to be pretty much the same (couldn't check the internals :-D ) Length, Diameter and bore of entry pipe.
Are you sure on the last part? The Daytona is 54mm - I would have expected the Sprint to be same as the S3 which is much smaller (don't recall the actual number exactly - I want to say 46mm)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #25
The Outside Diameter of the pipe into the can is in the 60s I can't remember exactly, but 63 springs to mind. this is before the neck down section that goes onto the tail of the header section.

I am back to the dealers tomorrow to do some more measurements.

Rexx
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #27
Yes, the pipes are definitely bigger there, but the end can appears to be the same unit.

I have a suspicion that the the sump of the daytona is a different shape as well to allow the triple pipes down the side. Pictures and measurements tomorrow!

Rexx
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
22,062 Posts
On 2007-07-09 16:29, RexxyPup wrote:
I have a suspicion that the the sump of the daytona is a different shape as well to allow the triple pipes down the side...
Well at least that part is not relevant since you'll be matching the header & sump together! :-D
What might be more critcial is whether there is enough room for the larger collector to fit under the Sprint fairing.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #29
that's very true, but in order for Sandy to give me a working bike back, he is going to have to either frig a Daytona exhaust onto the bike to start with ( leaving off the belly panel in the way) or fit it with the ST exhaust. He has no capacity to bend a link pipe, so he has to deliver me a working bike that I can then get the link made for..... so complicated!

Some good news today is that I contacted Wayne at TuneBoy about the mapping. He has said that I can use the ST map with the Daytona numbers in the fuel map to give me Daytona tune and Fuel gauge!!!

Can you point me in the direction of the Massive Midrange tune please. Wayne has kindly offered to put the Daytona Map into the ST tune. I'm hoping that if I can supply the massive one, that he'll be willing to use those figures. You don't get that kind of customer support to often these days..... thanks Wayne :-D

Rexx
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,389 Posts
I love it :razz: This is what hotroddin' is all about.
You'll get there Rexx and thanks to DeCosse for all your insite.

Don
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
22,062 Posts
Rexx, that's great support from Wayne .. But this is so easy to do you should try it yourself. You can do this trial before you even buy the program!
The software is available to download from the Tuneboy site at no fee but of course can't be used actively without the cable or the ECM key.
But you can begin playing with it to get a feel for it.
Download the program from http://www.tuneboy.com.au/Support/Download.html and the appropriate OEM map for your Sprint from here
Check out this tutorial to see what the map looks like - http://www.tuneboy.com.au/Tutorials/TuneEditTutorial1.html.

(Image courtesy of Tuneboy)


So you literally just open & highlight the cell in the Massive fuel map (like you would an excel spreadsheet) & copy, then copy on your std Sprint map. You then do the same for the Ignition map.
Save to your new custom map to a new file name e.g. Massive_Sprint.
Et Voila!

Edit - I thought about this some more - actually I don't believe you would have to do the above - for example the Sprint & S3 tunes are the same but obviously the S3 does not use a gas gauge.
I think the gas output is just an I/O function of the ECM & not a 'tunable' feature which is turned on or off. So I think you'd be OK just to load the Daytona map as it should only overwrite those features contained in it.
The other point of note I realized is that the set-points in the Daytona map (load & rpm) are different for the two maps so cannot be done just by transposing the numbers directly. I'm not sure if Wayne can possible transpose even the set-points i.e. the entire map between tunes.
Ask him about the gas gauge thing & whether this would truly be affected by the tune - I kinda think it is harware based rather than software - but could be wrong!

[ This message was edited by: DEcosse on 2007-07-10 10:20 ]
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #32
Thanks for that DEcosse.

Are the actual ECUs the same? I'm fairly sure that Sandy said that when the Daytona tune is installed that the gauge will stop working. I'll investigate some more. I may even ask Wayne on this one.

I had a major photographing and measuring of the shop Daytona yesterday. I’ve added the pictures to the albums.

The end can is the same length and diameter as the ST, the entry pipe (the shiny one that you can see) is 64mm Diameter

The link pipe from header to can is 54mm diameter, and the individual header pipes are 42mm Diameter. As a cluster, the 3 headers are 87mm across two of the pipes which implies that they approximately form an equilateral triangle of approximately 117mm. The key for me is where that 3 becomes 1 in relation to a fixed point on both engines. The only thing I could identify to use as a datum on both engines is a line through the two washers on the clutch casing. Using this as a base point, I think I can still make the curves and not be too constricting.

It’s the clearance sideways from the engine that I need to think over. The pipe certainly sits inside the panel profile on the side view, but I am fairly (sorry no pun) that the fairing will run far to close to the pipe. I could use a spacer behind the low panel screw to distort the panel out at the low point rather than cut it, but I think the first order is to see if the pipe could fit the bike in standard Daytona form before I start thinking about any butchering. Sandy at Triumphant has to give me a working bike first before I start converting to ST looks and features.

I shall be measuring and photographing my bike tonight to investigate the lateral measurements.

Gee ain’t this fun :brk:

Rexx
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
Less bald springs to mind!!!

I've done some photos of the ST this evening, and I think it is less of a problem than I thought. The 3-1 is indeed slightly longer (1/2") and the pipes are different Diameters, but the end can is the same beast, just with a different entry pipe shape.

FYI, the link pipe is 43mm dia, the header pipes are 38mm dia and the where the 3-1 section is it measures 81mm across two, so the Daytona cluster is 6mm bigger.

I think I'm gonna do it!!!!

Still have to ask Wayne about your fuel sender thingy (UK tech speak!)

:-D

Rexx
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
22,062 Posts
The things to recognize about the fuel sender/gas gauge Rexx - the exact same Triumph tune is used for the S3, the Sprint RS and the Sprint ST; the ST has gas gauge, the other two don't (low level light only). Also, the instrument panel on the S3, RS & Daytona are all essentially the same (just different logo & redline)
Ergo, why I don't believe the tune has anything to do with it.
Do you have a wiring diagram for the ST? I'd be curious as to which pin of the ECM the gas gauge signal emits from.
Is there a low-level light as well as the gauge on the ST? Does this come from same or different source on the ECM?

Reminder re the intrument panel while I mentioned it above - you will have a higher redline with the Daytona tune. Electronically your fuel cut-offs will happen in concert with what is programmed on the actual tune.
In practice, the engine will be able to rev beyond the red-line marker on your ST gauge & continue up to the map cut-off point (10,900 instead of 9,550). So visually, you'll be "in the red" but not operationally as far as the engine spec goes.
Just don't cheat yourself out of that extra 1350 rpm range because your tach says it's in the red! About another 10HP in that zone!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #36
Sorry, I don't have a wiring diagram. Perhaps someone else out there does?

I'm with you on the rev counter thing. I was wondering whether to do anything about that like removing the bezel and dotting the red until the Daytona line, but I think I'll leave it.

The ST has Gauge and low light (it's the plush model :wink: )

I would be really interested in getting an understanding of the ECU in and out, more to correct my speedo error.

I have become convinced that the signal from the front wheel sensor is split in the ecu and two separate signals sent back out, one to the odometer, and the other to the speedo.

Using my SatNav, my odometer is accurate to within a 1/10 of a mile over 100 miles of Motorway, but my speedo over reads by 10% right up the range. Now as they are both driven by the same sensor, 'I have a theory what is mine' (for you Monty Python fans out there - who said this and about what?) there must be some splitting and manipulation to get this. What do you think?

Rexx
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
22,062 Posts
I'm afraid they are both driven from one solitary signal off the ECM into the speedo module & only split internally.
That is actually very typical behaviour for most vehicles - quite good accuracy on the odo but ALWAYS optimistic in the speed. (Most governments' legislations make it such that the manufacturer will always ensure there is absolutely no possibility for the speedo to indicate 'slow' and for there to be reasonable accuracy in the actual miles)

So you have little options re calibration - you can add a speed-calibration/correction device but this will affect both functions. If you re-calibrate for indicated speed, you will end up with proportionately lower than actual miles accumulated on the odo.

Incidentally I found a DIY kit for a speedo correction device that is about one third of cost of the other options out there (like Yellow Box or Speed Healer)
If you can solder, that's a considerable savings!

JayCar Speedo Corrector Circuit
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #38
Thanks for that DEcosse.

The speedo healer thing looks good. It shouldn't be too hard; I've made my own heated jackets!

Mind you, I don't want to frig with the ODO. Is it really modified within the speedo? I wonder if I can get a duff speedo and have a look inside. If i could find some way to get to the signal after it has been split and re-boost it with your doohicky that would be fantastic!

Rexx
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #39
Update

Well, after some head scratching I have managed to trace the route of the link pipe and draw the space around it between the sump and the chassis leg. Finally got the exhaust header and can off the bike. Bit of a struggle with the studs... not much access, and very corroded studs. I got an even mix of nut that came of studs, and studs that came out with the nuts :rolleyes:

I found a workshop that reckoned they could make the link for me, but needed the first bend to be greater, so with the manifold in hand, and my drawing of the space it's back to them tomorrow. I guess I have two problems...

1 the Daytona manifold is about 15mm longer than the ST, making the space for the first curve less

2 there is a mounting bracket and the centrestand stop on that short section of pipe

Well at least it still looks possible! :p

Rexx
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Discussion Starter #40
Full Steam Ahead!

Well, I've gone and done it! :eek:

Deliberating and measuring is over.:skeptical:

The guy at the exhaust place reckons he can make the link pipe for tomorrow (although it will have creases as it isn't a mandrel bender - I can improve it later!) and modify the end can to fit the new bore!

Not only that but a Daytona manifold has appeared on eBay for £100 (SNAP!) which was the part that Sandy at Triumph-ant couldn't supply. Someone must be looking after me.

Engine is ordered (6 week wait) and Tuneboy is on it's way.

Now I just have to repair the other accident damage and wait for a call from Sandy!!

:motorbike2:

Rexx
 
21 - 40 of 133 Posts
Top