[RexxyPup]

Any of you folks out there got any experience of whether the Daytona mill will slot into the ST?

I've been playing with the idea of turbo, but too much money and too complex.

As I now have a deceased engine (crash damage) I have decided to look into the Triumph-ant replacement engine service and wondered if this would be an easier way of getting some more ponies!

So have any of you done it, and if you have what was involved please

Rexx

 

[Haddi-Man]

I don't know if anyone's actually done it, but I believe it's pretty much a drop in replacement. You'll need to remap, but the two engines are basically the same except the Daytona has different materials in the top end, I'm led to understand.

The question is, is it really worth it? I test rode a Daytona once, and I wasn't sure it was that much faster than a Sprint. It maybe handles better, but the engine wouldn't affect that any. If you're looking for a cool project to try, I say go for it. But if you're just looking for extra pickup... maybe sprocket down a tad first, before you go messing with the powerplant? :-D

 

[RexxyPup]

Thanks Haddi-man.

I guess I'm looking for a couple of things.

I want the extra 30 or so ponies they've hidden in the engine, and I want the extra 1500 revs that they have.

My main aim is to improve two up and touring with camping kit roll on response, and when pushing on, to have a little more time between changes.

I tend to cruise around the 5000rpm mark to be near the peak torque and hence acceleration, but this means that you get to the red line awful quick in an overtake and would like just a little longer before the change :-D

My dealer seems to think that the daytona runs a different airbox , whick wouldn't fit, but I'm sure I've seen someone with the riding list including the Daytona engined machine!

Rexx

 

[Haddi-Man]

The airbox wouldn't fit? Cripes. If you can swap out an entire engine, I have to think you could find some way to put an airbox on. Or else just use an aftermarket air filter that would fit...

Give it a shot, and see how it works out for you (easy for me to say! :-D )

 

[RexxyPup]

Moving on.... I've just had a fascinating discussion with Sandy at Triumph-ant looking at replacing the damaged engine. The cost of replacement (on an exchange basis) is £800 (for the motor) and £200 (ST motor installation) or £300 (Daytona Motor installation) + VAT on these of course.

So, the good news is the Daytona motor will fit :-D and for only £100 more than the ST :-D :-D

That has got to be one of the best £/bhp deals! What makes it really special is that he collects the bike and returns the bike free of charge!!!!! obviously this is a UK only service (sorry to all those over the pond)

So the question has changed somewhat.....

How different are the characteristics of the Sprint engine vs the Daytona. I know there are more ponies, and more revs (where some of the ponies come from as there is a direct relation between HP and revs), but what is the torque curve like?

Rexx

[ This message was edited by: RexxyPup on 2007-06-29 05:16 ]

 

[welshrob]

Hi Mark, long time no speak!

Send a PM to this guy

DEcosse

He has a 955 speed triple with a late model Daytona engine and Gixxer forks. He`ll tell you everything you need to know about marrying it up. A very helpful and genuine bloke, too.

 

[Dusty]

Nice project! You may find this interesting:[http://www.compulink.co.uk/~kwh/page45.htm]

 

[RexxyPup]

Hi Rob,

hope you are keeping well. How did the NZ trip go.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've seen quite a few posts from Decosse, but didn't realise that he had the Daytona engine in.

I'm not worried about getting it in.... Triumph-ant do the work, but from scouring the web I have found dyno curves for the ST and Daytona engine, and the Daytona looks to have a massive hole in the torque curve below 5k. When i say massive.... only 2/3 of ST amount. Otherwise they are both pretty flat lines.

The problem is that in top (which I tend to cruise in on Motorways) 4-5000 covers 70 (legal limit) to 90 (not so legal).

this would seem to suggest that top gear roll on at 70 would be dire.

I will PM Decosse, or perhaps he might see this thread!!

Rexx

 

[DEcosse]

Hi Rex - I just replied to your PM - been travelling all week so hadn't been on here as much.

I've met Sandy - quite a colourful character! Passionate about Triumphs. His shop is not that far from the UK division of the company I work for. He welcomed me with great hospitality & showed me around - felt like I was in Aladdins cave with all those bits in there!!!!! :-D

I wouldn't have thought the airbox was really significantly different - think the replacement one I bought might even be a Sprint one.

One thing you might want to ask him about would be the exhaust system - I would want to use the much bigger Daytona pipes than the Sprint ones, to maximize the power. Of course Daytona headers also means an exhaust to suit too so would definitely add to the expense. You don't have the lower mount on your ST frame but I don't on my early S3 frame either - but with support at the rear peg anyway, not a huge deal anyway - especially with a lightweight after-market can.

As to the 'hole':
(I've since thought better of my PM response to you - I've never run my motor with the stock tune so can't really comment how it feels - from the chart below I see what the concern is)

But you can easily improve the torque/power curve by installing a better tune:

This one shows the improvement over stock by the Tuneboy Owner & Developer, Wayne MacDonald - you can see the primary problem of the low section in the original torque curve completely gone with some timing re-mapping.

(click for larger image)


There is an extremely popular series of Tuneboy tunes that go by the title "Massive Midrange" by a guy whose screen name is Cerberus on one of the other Triumph forums. Cerberus took the ones from Wayne a few steps further with fueling improvements.

I have tried the original & am now running the Massive 2 which I found to be better suited and with which I'm well satisified!
Here's his comparison of the Original Massive vs Massive 2 - 136 HP peak and a beautifully flat torque curve - not too shabby!

It's available 'free' but he does accept donations which I believe is the right thing to do - I did! :-D

(click for larger image)

 

[RexxyPup]

Thanks DEcosse,

that really eases my mind. The two charts I found on the web showed both engines had a flat torque curve of around the 60 value, with both of them peaking at 66 (the ST at 5500rpm and the Daytona at 9000) what worried me was the pit of 40 between 4-5000rpm right where the fattest part of the ST curve is.

Your charts not only show more torque than that (although if anyone has the ST standard torque curve for the '04 mill for comparison, it would be most appreciated!) but also that it can be dealt with.

You mentioned tunes that others have developed using Tuneboy. Would I have to get Tuneboy to download them, or could I talk very nicely to my local dealer?

I'll have a chat with Sandy at Triumph-ant about the exhaust and see what he says he does. I've spoken to him a couple of times and as you see he is really passionate and knows his stuff.

If you are ever around and with time to spare, or even need a bed for the night, feel free......

Rexx

 

[DEcosse]

Hi again Rexx - dealers don't typically use Tuneboy; I'm not sure if Sandy has it? Even if you can get someone to load it you'd still have to pay for the ECM license as it is is bike specific.

Nice thing about a shop like Triumphant is it is chock-full of used bits! So he may also work out a favourable exchange with you on your Sprint headers & exhaust. The OEM Daytona exhaust is a bit cumbersome so an after-market would be the best choice.

OK - Tuneboy of your own obviously adds even more investment, but it's a very worthwhile tool - has nice diagnostic features as well as the custom tune capability.
If you consider that your options with an OEM Triumph tune are going to still leave you with the 'hole' then the investment is very worth-while in terms of return on $$$ (or pounds) per performance.

With OEM they are restricted by what they can do because they need to meet all the various Global Emissions regulations so that results in something that is going to be compromised in the power department.

You have to be a bit careful when looking at dyno charts - only relative ones are really worthwhile rather than the absolute numbers.
Dyno to Dyno & environmental conditions & corrections will give quite varied results on the numbers so a real comparison is only valid when run on the same dyno on the same day.
If you look at Wayne's vs Cerberus charts for example, you can see the absolute numbers for torque are different - but Wayne's chart is in Nm - divide by ~ 1.355 to convert Nm to ft lb.
You can't really compare the absloute numbers because of the different dyno's used (& of course different bikes)
But the relative shape of the curve and the improvement versus the starting condition shows you what is important.

Incidentally hp = torque (ft lb) x rpm / 5252.




[ This message was edited by: DEcosse on 2007-06-30 19:28 ]

 

[steventhechef]

:gpst: That's why I love this forum. Social and informative.

DEcosse :bow: Thanks for sharing the tech stuff. Very interesting

 

[RexxyPup]

thanks for the extra info, DEcosse,

Am I right in thinking that there are two levels of TuneBoy you can purchase? Download tunes, or the full modify all parameters and diagnose?

It is quite an extra hit to be taking at the moment, but I can at least ride the bike with the 'tona mill in, and make a judgement as to whether I need to fill the hole.

I was toying with the turbo route, but I couldn't afford the £2.5k plus TuneBoy, so this is a potential silver performance lining to a black crash cloud. As I was going to get the Tuneboy for the Turbo, I could sort of dismiss it to the purse as an overhead I would have had to spend either way! :-D

I will have a chat with Sandy about the Headers and pipes and see what he says. If you don't mind, I will let him know who the advice comes from! Mind you, will he know who DEcosse is?

I think I have talked myself into this one, so all I have to do is get the Insurance on side that I have found a cheaper way of repairing the bike, than the estimate they used to write it off! :hammer:

Incidentally, what did the map do to fuel consumption?

My instinct is to say that it was detrimental, but thinking it through, I would say it might actually be a benefit, sitting on the fat part of a curve means much smaller throttle openings for the same level of acceleration!

Rexx

[ This message was edited by: RexxyPup on 2007-07-01 10:07 ]

 

[DEcosse]

On 2007-07-01 10:03, RexxyPup wrote:

Am I right in thinking that there are two levels of TuneBoy you can purchase? Download tunes, or the full modify all parameters and diagnose?

There are two levels you can buy, yes, but not quite as you perceive - the full one is still what you need to download maps. It is the same package whether you just want to download a map or tweak on just parts of it.
The starter pack only allows the diagnositic functions.
Note that there is another GB via Triumph675.net - chance to get in on that & save a few bucks, it starts officially tomorrow.
Triumph675.net Tuneboy Group Buy
I got mine through the last one.

It is quite an extra hit to be taking at the moment, but I can at least ride the bike with the 'tona mill in, and make a judgement as to whether I need to fill the hole.

Exactly! You can just ride with a stock Daytona map then upgrade after you recover from the initial 'hit'.

I will have a chat with Sandy about the Headers and pipes and see what he says. If you don't mind, I will let him know who the advice comes from! Mind you, will he know who DEcosse is?

Not sure if he'll recognize the name - he may recall the Scottish guy who visited from California.

Incidentally, what did the map do to fuel consumption?

I get about 40mpg (that's US gallon so equates to about 50 for an imperial gallon)


[ This message was edited by: DEcosse on 2007-07-01 11:37 ]

 

[RexxyPup]

Thanks DEcosse for all the help.

I guess once I have got used to the extra, I'm going to be moaning about the 'front end'.

Mind you, I changed the springs for the WP ones, and went one oil heavier than they recommended, so at the moment upside downies are probably beyond my abilities!

I'll let you know how it goes!

Think I'm sold!!

Rexx

 

[RexxyPup]

Well, it's looking like I may have a realistic chance with the insurance company to do this, so I spoke to Sandy about doing the Daytona engine, and using the Daytona exhaust.

Sandy believe that the ST exhaust won't fit anyway, but he is now having doubts about being able to fit the daytona pipes, particularly with me using panniers. Sandy thinks the can is more upswept than the ST, and so would not swing round to allow the pannier fitting, so he's gone away to chew it over.

For my part, I think that this could be solved by a carefully thought out link pipe, but I was wondering if anyone , particularly you DEcosse, had any thoughts or experience of this.

BTW DEcosse, he remembered you well and was very complimentary and particularly remembered your reaction to seeing his spares stores :-D

Rexx

 

[DEcosse]

Rex - you could try to find a GP style 'stubby' can in the Daytona fitment (54mm)

Here's a Mivv on an S3 but they dont list it for the Daytona on their web-site. Worth inquiring - that's a good looking pipe!

Wolf/Trident was also asking for feedback on a stubby can - you might give them a call & see if they have it released yet with Daytona fitment. Not so crazy about this one - looks a bit skinny but you may want to find applications first before deciding on aesthetics!

 

[RexxyPup]

Thanks for that.

Hmmm, really don't like the stubby can and would really like the bike to look as stock as possible!

I'll see what Sandy comes up with!

Rexx

 

[RexxyPup]

Does anyone have side shots of the ST and Daytona to compare this upsweep with standard cans?

Rexx

 

[DEcosse]

This is OEM Daytona exhaust on the Daytona headers - use the wheel as a frame of reference for your Sprint application. If you need it lower for the panniers, you could possibly heat the final bend in the headers (right below the brake pedal) & tweak it some more to drop the angle further, then just add a section to the hanger off the passenger footpeg.