[dealsgapdragon]

I couldn't find a thread for this model with photos. I'll take some photos as this progresses. Maybe some video, except my harddrives are full.

Look Here First

The workshop manual is useless. It reads like Triumph wants only dealers to work on their bikes, with secret "dealer codes" and "passwords" required to do basic electrical checks via handheld computer code reader. No illustration in workshop manual, no description how to remove it nor test it. No mention in manual what that 30 amp fuse is that's located beside the battery.

New battery. Old one had one cell bulging, very low volts, would not hold a charge. This is my 3rd battery in 3,500 miles.

Maintence charger is 1 amp at 14.5 volts (Black & Decker at Walmart, with green light = OFF, and yellow light = CHARGE). I've I'll post video of what the bad battery/charger combo looked like (14.5 volts to 7 volts to 14.5 in 1 second intervals).

1st day with new battery and it ran all day, about 5 starts, then display started cutting out, then failed to start at midnight at a gas station. No hill, so had to enlist a pusher. Bump started in 6th, rode home fine, voltage 11.5 with engine off.

So now I'll start testing Voltage Regulator/Rectifier and Stator, with mods to larger-gage wiring and upgrade to higher amp regulator and move to cooler part of chassis. This seems to be a common and expensive defect, but not so bad with aftermarket parts and DIY (80% discount).

Switch OFF = 12.83 volts GOOD (12.5 volts +)
Switch ON = 11.94 volts LOW (12.0 volts +)
Idle = 12.37 volts FAIL (13.0 to 14.5 volts)
5000 RPM = 12.22 volts FAIL (13.0 to 14.5 volts)
Rear fuses OK
Front fuses OK
30 amp rear fuse OK (located beside battery, starter solenoid or voltage regulator? Not in workshop manual)

Are there any other fuses?

Voltage Regulator/Rectifier appears to be behind the engine, under the gas tank, in the hottest part of the bike.

QUESTION: What's the proper way to remove this fuel tank? Best way to remove fuel? Are there any special tricks to disconnecting fuel lines and vent lines of the fuel injection system on the tank?

Headlight ON/OFF DPDT 2-position switch spliced into negative headlight wire each side 1/2 inch from bulb connector. Soldered connections with heat shrink and silicone rubber potting on switch terminals. Rubber switch cover is ordered from ham radio electronics store.

HEADLIGHT MOD - Headlight on/off switch works good, but requires double-OFF after engine shuts down or some panel lights remain half-on, such as Hi-Beam. Perhaps the off switch prevents a capacitor from discharge? When OFF it raises voltage 0.25 volts to 12.22 volts with ignition ON, which was not enough to solve this problem, but maybe helped a little to bump start, and might help survive RR/stator failure when daytime riding with lights off. I'll post photos of the mod with a new thread.

I bought a Triumph because its was $1,000 cheaper than other 600 race replicas, despite Triumph's bad rep for reliability. Besides, the dealer was only 1 mile away. What could go wrong with a new bike? Dealer soon went out of business, then the electrical gremlins hatched...

Here I am shooting video at Deals Gap 1 hour prior to Epic Fail:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7051357740105436260

He had his mom with "terminal cancer" in the back seat having a blast, Florida to Alaska to a Caribbean biker cruise. 100s of lights and strobes and videocams and radios and GPS. THAT'S the kind of reliability I'm looking for. Do I have to buy a Honda?

 

[chrisjames]

My batteries is dying pretty much just as fast. I have two but I will be paying close attention to this thread.

 

[zaner30]

Sounds like stator and/or regulator... Here is the link to one of the original stator/regulator threads:

http://www.triumphrat.net/maintenan...print/104504-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html

Good luck

Zane

 

[Juz]

I'm having the same problem. Thought it was the reg/rectifier. I bought new battery, and new reg/rectifier but this did not resolve problem.

I didn't suspect the stator as I was getting 30VAC at idle which I thought was enough. I was wrong.

Took the bike to a Triumph specialist and straight away he said it will be the stator. Should be putting out 60VAC at idle. When he pulled the cover off to look at the stator he said over half of it was burned out.

After market stator and reg/rectifiers can be purchased from www.electrexworld.co.uk for half the price of originals.

Stator(generator) - G660
Reg/rect - RR99
They are the part numbers you need.

I've ordered a new stator. Should be here by Wednesday. Will let you know how I get on.

Talking to the Triumph specialist he said it will be Battery/Reg-rect or stator. Those are the 3 components int he charging system.

A bad battery can cause the stator to go.

Hopefully this has provided some useful information.

 

[DEcosse]

.... A bad battery can cause the stator to go.....

No. A bad R/R can cause the stator to go. Unlikley the battery will have any direct effect on the stator.

 

[Juz]

No. A bad R/R can cause the stator to go. Unlikley the battery will have any direct effect on the stator.

Was just quoting what the bike mechanic said to me. He's Triumph specialist, so I am just assuming he is telling it correctly.

 

[dealsgapdragon]

"Bad battery causes stator to fail"

Was just quoting what the bike mechanic said to me. He's Triumph specialist, so I am just assuming he is telling it correctly.

A broken battery would put a stator under higher load, thus higher heat.

A properly designed stator could handle that constant load.

An improperly designed stator would not be able to handle a constant load.

A Triumph specialist is accustomed to seeing poorly designed parts fail on a regular basis. Which is a good career move on his part.

So you're both probably right. Unfortunately.

This may be why mine has apparently failed at such a low total mileage (3,000). I suspect my cheap charger/maintainer overcharged the battery, perhaps causing sulfation evident by a bulge in one cell. This put the stator/regulator under a constant load, burning them up. My new battery can go for a max of 5 electric starts before it fails to start, since it's only charging at 12 volts. Push start works if its on a hill.

QUESTION: Does fuel not leak from disconnected fuel lines when electric pump is OFF?

QUESTION: Does the factory fuel lines have quick-disconnect fittings? The workshop manual seems to imply this. If you can keep the plastic from breaking while disconnecting them.

 

[DEcosse]

A broken battery would put a stator under higher load, thus higher heat..

That's not how it works.
A battery in bad enough shape to draw in excess of 30A would not be in a bike that was capable of running to begin with; even if it did it would blow the charging fuse anyway
Just not feasible.

 

[Juz]

That's not how it works.
A battery in bad enough shape to draw in excess of 30A would not be in a bike that was capable of running to begin with; even if it did it would blow the charging fuse anyway
Just not feasible.

I'll just go back and tell the Triumph trained mechanic he's wrong shall I?

 

[DEcosse]

I'll just go back and tell the Triumph trained mechanic he's wrong shall I?

Congratulations on your first sarcstic response after only 3 days membership and a massed total of 10 posts.

You can do what you like & choose to believe whatever you like.

No need to tell him he's wrong - Why don't you just ask him to explain to you the mechanism of exactly how that will happen - and maybe even how a shunt regulator works. How much current into the 'bad battery' would it actually take to burn up the stator?
I'd be seriously interested in understanding his logical explanation - unlike you, there is no sarcasm here - I'm willing to remain open-minded to possibilities I maybe hadn't considered, although I believe a have a very sound understanding of how this relatively primitive circuit works.

What I find most incredible is that you are disputing my statements with no personal comprehension of how this works, but because 'someone told you so'.
That doesn't mean you should believe me any more than him, but without any real understanding yourself, you shouldn't be so quick to put this response down.

You know nothing about me or my personal education yet immediately believe the "Triumph Trained Mechanic" must be all-knowledgable. I'd be more than happy to debate this with your mechanic who at least has his own thoughts on the matter - you, on the other hand are just ignorantly regurgitating someone else's (flawed) understanding.

I have a degree in electrical/electronic engineering incidentally - what do you do?

 

[Juz]

Congratulations on your first sarcstic response after only 3 days membership and a massed total of 10 posts.

You can do what you like & choose to believe whatever you like.

No need to tell him he's wrong - Why don't you just ask him to explain to you the mechanism of exactly how that will happen - and maybe even how a shunt regulator works. How much current into the 'bad battery' would it actually take to burn up the stator?
I'd be seriously interested in understanding his logical explanation - unlike you, there is no sarcasm here - I'm willing to remain open-minded to possibilities I maybe hadn't considered, although I believe a have a very sound understanding of how this relatively primitive circuit works.

What I find most incredible is that you are disputing my statements with no personal comprehension of how this works, but because 'someone told you so'.
That doesn't mean you should believe me any more than him, but without any real understanding yourself, you shouldn't be so quick to put this response down.

You know nothing about me or my personal education yet immediately believe the "Triumph Trained Mechanic" must be all-knowledgable. I'd be more than happy to debate this with your mechanic who at least has his own thoughts on the matter - you, on the other hand are just ignorantly regurgitating someone else's (flawed) understanding.

I have a degree in electrical/electronic engineering incidentally - what do you do?

I apologise for any offence cause. Was not my intention.
You as a moderator should understand what forums are like and how things come across. Your short paragraph answers almost seemed like they were demanding your opinion be recognised. (that's how it came across to me)

I haven't the first clue about electronics, hence why my bike is in at a mechanics. I was merly passing on information passed to me by a triumph mechanic.

As for disputing statements, you did exactly the same thing. Disputing statements without knowing anything about me or my educational background. Only difference is I jumped straight to sarcasm which I admit is pretty poor form and it wont happen again.

I shall not be so hasty as to pass on regurgitated information in the future unless I have a better understanding of it myslef.

 

[DEcosse]

Peace, Juz!

 

[dealsgapdragon]

That's not how it works.
A battery in bad enough shape to draw in excess of 30A would not be in a bike that was capable of running to begin with; even if it did it would blow the charging fuse anyway
Just not feasible.

Where is the "charging fuse"?

Is that the 30 amp fuse next to the battery, not in the rear fuse box?

What is this 30A fuse that's not listed in factory manual?

Overheated voltage regulator buried under fuel tank

New battery with ignition OFF

 

[Maule167LF]

Bad Battery - Failed Alternator

I'm intrigued with this thread, as the "Triumph Tranined Mechanic" told me the same thing. I have an '05 Daytona 650. Supposedly starting my bike with a not fully charged battery friend my alternator.

Are the terms Alternator, Generator and Stator interchangable?

My first thought was exactly what's been said here. Wouldn't the voltage regulator keep this from happening unless it was actually the regulator that failed first?

Are Regulator and Rectifier interchangable terms?

As you can tell, I'm new to bikes, but do have some working knowledge of electronics.

A new "alternator" is $800 and a new regulator is $400 from the Triumph dealer.

Interesting enough, I was told that the parts were in the "back" of the motor and were difficult to get to. If the detailed photos I have seen here are close to how my bike works, there is actually quite "easy" access once the plastic panels are off.

Thanks for the posts...

 

[dealsgapdragon]

I'm intrigued with this thread, as the "Triumph Tranined Mechanic" told me the same thing. I have an '05 Daytona 650. Supposedly starting my bike with a not fully charged battery friend my alternator.

Are the terms Alternator, Generator and Stator interchangable?........................

..

You have to pull the fuel tank off to reach the voltage regulator.

But FIRST test your stator output on the left-hand side of the engine. Just follow the wires to behind the frame below the fuel tank and disconnect. Otherwise you'll have to put your fuel tank back on to run the motor for the test, at idle and 5,000 rpm. That's what I'm doing now. 1 phase FAIL, 2 phase pass. Not sure about the regulator, but it needs to be upgraded anyway.

 

[samurye]

The stator is the static part of the alternator. It is the wire windings bolted to the stator case on the left of the engine. Some people will call an alternator a generator but they are two different things. A generator is basically an electric motor in reverse and supplies DC. An alternator supplies AC and it needs to be rectified by your trusty R/R, a single enclosed unit which both rectifies the swinging AC voltage to a constant DC voltage and regulates the output to around 14.4V. If you want to get a better understanding of the differences, go to a site like this:

http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/AlternatorGeneratorTheory.htm

Fuel tank. Don't know about the later models but my TT has quick release fittings on the tank hoses. Follow dealsgapdragon's advice and do the test on the stator output before pulling the tank.

Once you go to pull the tank, disconnect the battery, take it out and put it on charge somewhere on the other side of your car-hold. This will keep things from getting electrical on your a$$ while there's fuel around.

Now get yourself a couple of take away containers, not too small. You want them big enough that you can catch the fuel that may come out of the connectors if they don't snap shut. For the same reason, find somewhere nice and cosy (a box laid flat on the floor works) to place your tank upside-down if these connectors don't play ball. Finally, get a rubber dish washing glove (not the flocked type!!!) and cut off a couple of fingers. You'll use these to make sure no fuel comes out of the hoses.

First, there are 3 bolts to undo. Then there's the fuel pump electrical connector and a couple of breather hoses. You can undo all these in whatever order you need to.

Now for the tank. It doesn't hurt to have someone to help here. Three hands make things easier. Lift the back end of the tank to get access to the fuel lines. Position the take away containers where you think they'll catch the fuel, unclick one connector at a time. If there's no fuel leaking, you can take the tank over to the box and sit it upright - just keep an eye on it for leaks and be careful not to get crap in the connectors. If its leaking, upside-down! Come back to the bike and cover the hoses with the glove fingers. Tank's off! Putting the tank back on is just the reverse.

If you do have to keep the tank upside-down, remember that there may be a bit of crap floating in there when you put it back on. Unless you want to drain the tank and clean it out, just leave it for a bit when you put it back on before starting up. Your fuel pump will like you.

It's also not a good idea to leave fuel tanks, lines, pumps without fuel in them for too long as some things crack and perrish.

The R/R seems like it's in a crappy position. It's worth the short run of heavy duty wire to relocate it somewhere cooler. Can you solder?

There are plenty of posts on how to play with the electrical system, the TT/Daytona will keep you busy...

Happy playing!

 

[dealsgapdragon]

My Daytona 600 2004 regulator has a 4-wire output of 2 red and 2 black wires.

Where to the other 2 wires go?

There was a factory recall and upgrade of Daytona 600 alternators (including rotor). I have no idea what was changed, or if mine was included in that recall, or if rhe upgrade was completed.

Do I need to keep the 4-wire output if I upgrade to FH012 regulator, which has a 2-wire output?

Daytona 600:

Stator fried, one phase maxed at less than 10 volts at 5,000 rpm

Regulator passed rectifier diode test, will test regulator output with new stator. But even a perfect factory regulator can fry a stator, apparently.

It appears from the wiring chart that it's okay to use the old wiring harness that plugs into the regulator. I presume its okay to solder 4 12-gauge wires to the dual outputs of the upgrade regulator.

I may have to butcher the old regulator, which kills its resale value.

I hope the new stator is an upgrade too.

Rotor seemed okay. Hope it fits the new stator. Daytona 600s seem to have 2 different rotors, but that's not reflected on the Triumph Recalls that I've seen.

Guess I'll have to change the oil, to get that burned alternator gunk out of the filter. Only had 200 miles on it.

Then figure out the correct way to top up coolant with distilled water and bleed it.

What kind of stator cover gasket do I use? Factory gasket seems metallic, but I think the local shop cuts theirs out of rubber-type material.

And hope the fuel tank fittings don't crack.

 

[Maule167LF]

Parts

I've ordered a regulator/rectifier and an stator/alternator for my D650from the http://www.electrexworld.co.uk website mentioned earlier in this thread. $340USD for both with shipping. $1,100 if ordered from Triumph.

I too will take photos of my journey. Sounds like it's going to be a fun one.

I lack the skills req'd to move/rewire/solder the R/R. I'm sure that will come back to haunt me when this new one fails again.

I'll replace the battery, as there is no idication of how old it is. I've only owned since Dec, but with 11k miles why not just take the hit now and not deal with hit later.

That will leave me with all new charging components. Certainly hope it starts and runs when this is over with.

Cheers!

 

[Juz]

I've ordered a regulator/rectifier and an stator/alternator for my D650from the http://www.electrexworld.co.uk website mentioned earlier in this thread. $340USD for both with shipping. $1,100 if ordered from Triumph.

I too will take photos of my journey. Sounds like it's going to be a fun one.

I lack the skills req'd to move/rewire/solder the R/R. I'm sure that will come back to haunt me when this new one fails again.

I'll replace the battery, as there is no idication of how old it is. I've only owned since Dec, but with 11k miles why not just take the hit now and not deal with hit later.

That will leave me with all new charging components. Certainly hope it starts and runs when this is over with.

Cheers!

I have just done everything you are about to do on my 04 D600. Battery, reg/rec, stator. Charging nicely now. 14.2V

 

[DEcosse]

My Daytona 600 2004 regulator has a 4-wire output of 2 red and 2 black wires.

Where to the other 2 wires go?

..... Do I need to keep the 4-wire output if I upgrade to FH012 regulator, which has a 2-wire output?

Please read the complte instruction & also see my diagrams above - ignore the fact that the OEM has 4 wires and the OEM harness into which it plugs has 4 wires - with an FH012 you wire the two outputs directly to the battery (the +ve via a 30A fuse) and elminate the original output part of harness completely.

Regulator passed rectifier diode test, will test regulator output with new stator. But even a perfect factory regulator can fry a stator, apparently....

No - there is absolutely no reason a 'perfect' factory regulator can/will fry a stator!
However if the 'perfect' R/R becomes imperfect i.e. gets a shorted diode on the input bridge, then it is possible it may do damage to the stator.

There was a factory recall and upgrade of Daytona 600 alternators (including rotor). I have no idea what was changed, or if mine was included in that recall, or if rhe upgrade was completed.

Please refer this to your Supersports forum for information regarding this. (Similarly for your other questions regarding your general maintenance)