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Discussion Starter #22
Take a sharp tool and de-bur the edge of the seal hole, even with a tiny bit of chamfer. Then, carefully press in the new seal.
Thanks GPZ. The UK made seals which came from TMS are manufactured by Pioneer Weston (see pic), they go into the hole fine it's only when I tried to press them past the circlip groove that they caught and tore the outer rubber covering. I've got a couple more coming from a different supplier, I think they'll be identical so I'll look at chamfering the lower edge of the circlip slot slightly.

720701
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Ok, I received two more replacement seals and with a more careful approach I pressed them in and the circlip for the crank oil seal went in with a satisfying click. I used sockets and a G clamp as before but instead of just trying to install them in one go this time I did it in small presses adjusting the socket if the seal was skewing. Live and learn.

Everything went back together well (the points seal guide tool is brilliant, thanks Andy) and after a few kicks the oil light went off and came back on some seconds later, all as expected. I went through this routine a couple of times and then the oil light refused to come back on.

I swapped the bulb for the indicator idiot light and it works so that’s not the issue. With the ignition on I’ve got feed to the white/brown wire connecting the oil pressure switch and the oil light so that’s as it should be. If I understand correctly the oil pressure switch ‘makes’ the earth contact when the engine isn’t running or the oil pressure drops to a certain level so I should have been able to measure continuity between the spade terminal and the switch body but there was no continuity.

Before I order a new switch has my testing been along the right lines or have I misunderstood how it should work?

Thank you.
 

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Hi Chris,

It was the 7lb hammer you were using to fit the original seals that was the problem! You needed the 14lb version......

Just tested mine for you - with the brown/white disconnected, there's continuity between the terminal and the switch body with the engine not running. Yes, the switch 'breaks' when the oil pressure is up.

If you order a new switch, yours and mine both need the straight thread I think - the earlier ones were tapered. Or is it the other way around? No, I think it's the straight one you need. Anyway, make sure you get the correct one - those National pipe threads are awful fine in an ali housing. Scary. Whatever, I ended up with switches of both types.

I put a wrap of PTFE tape around mine so that I'd be fairly sure that a) they wouldn't gall, and b) even without screwing them in too far it would not leak. That tape could have prevented the switch earthing but it does not seem to, and it does not leak. You really don't want that switch falling out though...... And those switch threads look like they are made of cheese: of the Brie variety, not Parmesan.

I bought the tap for that thread if you need to clean it out.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Great stuff thanks very much Andy! Yes I know about the thread differences, every time important anomalies come up on the forum I save the narrative into a word document for future reference (geeky I know). This gem came from Stuart in a past thread;

"those made after calendar December 1968 have parallel-thread (1/8”NPS) pressure switch holes; Assuming your bike’s timing cover has the correct NPS thread, if you want the matching NPS switch, use the ‘74-on number - 60-3719."

The 1972 parts book is incorrect, it quotes 60-2133 which is the tapered thread switch. I've got good threads and it didn't leak but I was surprised at how easily it came undone, gently does it come replacement I think.
 

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Ah yes, I remember now. I bought the tapered switch as that's what's in the book, then came across Stuart's post and bought the NPS threaded switch.

Looking very carefully the TS cover had had a welded repair (but then polished out completely), which left a bit of weld protruding into the switch hole. I bought the tap to clean it out, which it did admirably. If you need it, just ask.

And yes, I put the switch in barely more than hand tight. Very, very gingerly!
 

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Hi Chris,

The 1972 parts book is incorrect, it quotes 60-2133 which is the tapered thread switch.
Hopefully to be clearer, the parts book isn't wrong, it's the current maker/commissioner of the switches:-

. T150's and Rocket 3's were the original o.p. switch users. Their building started in June 1968 (because BSA/Triumph had decided to launch in the US in September 1968 and have at least one relevant triple on each dealer's floor on launch day), they originally had NPT taper-thread switches numbered D1943.

. D2133 (60-2133) first appeared in the '69 650 and 500/350 parts books and was supposed to be NPS; however, in amongst the early-'69 650's and 500's still numbered using the separate DUnnnnn and Hnnnnn sequences are some that have NPT-thread switches and timing covers (my T100 is one).

. This has caused enormous confusion for years; at least one well-respected person even believing that D2133 started as a taper-thread switch and changed to a parallel-thread one ... :eek: I'm pretty-certain this isn't (can't be) the case; D2133 was always parallel-thread, some sort of production hiatus - possibly at Smiths? - required those early twins to be fitted with taper-thread switches.

those made after calendar December 1968 have parallel-thread (1/8”NPS) pressure switch holes
... is specifically the 500's built from the second week of December 1968; Meriden appears to have been fitting NPS-thread switches and timing covers certainly by the time the date-code-format numbering started being used in October 1968, Meriden built 650's from October 1968 'til the first week of December 1968.

. So causing more confusion is the muppet in either the switch maker or commissioner that decided to use D2133/60-2133 for current production of the taper-thread switch. ?

. Aside: according to a Triumph booklet called Changes To Ranges (also one of the appendices in Triumph In America), T150's (built at BSA Small Heath) continued to be fitted with taper-thread switches 'til sometime in January 1969. Not sure if the reality's true, though.

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #28
A bit more re-assembly today with static timing of the Boyer EI. The PO had soldered the connections at the stator plate so I’d had to cut those to remove the timing cover to renew the seals. When I stripped the wires to remake the connection the copper strands were black and brittle, I had to cut the wires back about 3 inches to get to decent looking copper. On the stator plate itself I was limited by the very short wires but managed to get some improvement though not as good as I wanted.

What would cause this do you think? The soldered connection or maybe it’s just a very old Micro MkIV system?
 

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It's black wire disease. Until recently I built and flew r/c model aeroplanes. Black wire disease is a major killer of model aeroplanes. It affects the r/c control system. Old age. These wires suffer from it after a few years out in the environment inhabited by motorcycles and model aeroplanes.

Because of the potential harm that can be inflicted by a model aeroplane, with a sharp double-ended knife rotating at 10,000 rpm on the front, and weighing anything from a kilo to 20kg (and much, much more), responsible model flyers keep a close eye on this disease. Seriously. Responsible model flyers junk servo wires at the first sign of black wires.

It's age, use, electrolysis, water ingress etc etc.

R/c aeroplanes are particularly susceptible to control glitches caused by degradation of the signals to the servos, and I suspect motorcycles much less so.
 

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Hi Chris,

Boyer EI.
PO had soldered the connections at the stator plate
When I stripped the wires to remake the connection the copper strands were black and brittle,
The soldered connection or maybe it’s just a very old Micro MkIV system?
'Fraid I have to disagree with Andy on this occasion, it's whatever solder the PO used. The oldest Mk.4's are less than twenty years old; otoh, I reused a few original wires from the T160 loom (now 45 or 46 years old) in my first rewire (38 years old), I've stripped original Lucas looms from when they soldered bullet terminals (60-odd? years ago), one of my old Japanese bikes was 35 years old and had covered nearly 90K when it went to the breaker but I've worked on Japanese bikes that'd covered two and three times that mileage. I've only ever seen "Black wire disease" on a very few crappy PO-soldered joints.

had to cut the wires back about 3 inches to get to decent looking copper. On the stator plate itself I was limited by the very short wires but managed to get some improvement though not as good as I wanted.
Have you checked the price of a new stator plate (if Bransden is still working :rolleyes: )?

PO had soldered the connections at the stator plate
Hope you haven't redone this? Ime, soldering connections like this is completely unnecessary and, as you've found, a pita when you need to remove the trigger unit. Fwiw:-

. The T160 I acquired in 1982 came with the Rita trigger unit connected by Brit-standard 3/16" OD bullets and a snap connector, I modified my other T160 similarly shortly afterwards.

. I don't use the horrible squash-on Bodgers' terminals Bransden and clone makers insist on supplying with their kits, I would prefer to use 3/16" bullets and snap connectors but they put too much strain on the B-B and clone "Stator" plates :( so I connect them with 'Japanese bullets' and both male and female insulation. On Japanese bikes used in all weathers, I fill these female insulators with Vaseline but I haven't found it necessary on Britbikes.

. All of the above completely reliable.

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Thanks for the replies Andy & Stuart. I was planning to use the bullet and snap connectors I already have but by the time I’d stripped the stator wires back as far as I dare it was obvious that they’d be contorted and under strain. For now I’ve had to use pre-insulated spade connectors, the bike is ready to start and time when the new oil pressure switch arrives.

A Boyer stator plate will be about £50 delivered but I quite like the simplicity of the Pazon connections, you don’t hear of them giving any trouble. Social distancing and still being a full time employee is doing wonders for my bank balance so I may opt to replace the EI, I can then try to solder new wires to the Boyer stator plate and keep it as a backup.

When I re-wired the bike over winter I too found the copper in the original harness to be in surprisingly good condition, it was the insulation and connection points showing their age.
 

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'Fraid I have to disagree with Andy on this occasion, it's whatever solder the PO used.
Feel free Stuart! ;)

You may well be right about the solder issue. All I can say is that the BWD endemic in r/c model aeroplane wiring as it ages is not solder related as those leads are invariably crimped - maybe that's a function of needing to be vibration resistant and hence minimizing the stiff solder joints - I wonder? Never thought about it.

Equally, when I stripped old wires from my 73 TR7RV loom over the winter whilst re-wiring from scratch, a number of the wires were black well inside the runs, well away from the soldered bullets.

I have no idea of the cause, but I know it exists for non-obvious reasons as far as r/c wiring is concerned, and that the effects can be catastrophic - certainly for the aeroplane, and sometimes for other people's property - which is why we take it seriously. Model flying is actually regulated by the CAA, so serious accidents can fall within their legal remit and negligent model pilots can be prosecuted (and have been).

I'd suggest that BWD may also cause malfunctions in motorcycles too - maybe the effects are more of an inconvenience rather than model (or property) destroying, but I bet BWD is capable of upsetting the signals from a Boyer stator plate, given half a chance!

If we give Don (TR7RVMan of this parish) a day or so, I bet we'll get a well-argued thesis on the topic!
 

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Discussion Starter #33
The bike’s back up and running but not with more self-inflicted angst, I really am wondering whether I’m cut out for old Brit bike ownership (or any bike for that matter). The LF Harris oil pressure switch arrived (60-3719) and showed continuity between the spade terminal and the switch body. It screwed all the way home with just finger pressure so I nipped it up and turned the ignition key.…no oil light! There was power to the switch so I took the headlight off and found that I’d forgotten to plug the lamp holder back into the red lens during my lamp swap fault tracing. There it was shining brightly inside the headlight but not through the lens.

I’d installed the EI and didn’t want the bike starting straight away so I put a couple of spare plugs in the plug caps, rested them on the cylinder head and kicked away until the oil light went out. It took several kicks and I was getting a bit nervous but eventually it did extinguish and stayed off for about 15 seconds. After that I started the bike, got it warm enough to idle and went for a quick trip up the road letting it idle in the garage again, the oil light behaved as expected so it looks like I’ve installed the crank oil seal correctly.

So what started out as crank end float investigation turned out to be replacement of the two timing cover oil seals with more supple new ones, removal of some black EI wiring, replacement of a faulty oil pressure switch, resetting the timing statically and gaining peace of mind that the crank pinion nut is secure. I haven’t got to the bottom of the real issue but I don’t want to pull the engine apart and getting it to somebody who could do it is nigh on impossible at the moment.
 

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? ? ?

That's about par for the course! But now you know the condition of that crank pinion seal, and you know that pressure switch is good (or should be).

A couple less things to worry about!
 
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