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I bought mine cos I was doing medium high speed sustained runs/touring where I would sit on 70 to 80 mph for 8 to 12 hours only [quickly] stopping for fuel.

But for a casual user [where priming could be an issue with the rotary] the plunger pump is much better IMO.
Trident, as much as I think the standard plunger pump is barely adequate for use, you are perfectly correct. The first thing I do with a Triumph when I get a one is give it a heart transplant, in with the rotary, but if I pass it on to a new owner the original pump goes straight back on. It is too much risk that the new owner will forget to prime the pump when he changes the oil and will destroy the engine.
The 20% extra oil flow morgo plunger pump, seems a good compromise.
Best regards
Peg.
 

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Wow, that's amazing! The Trident must be really smooth. I mean that there is no way that I could sit on my Bonneville for 8 - 12 hours a day. Not going to happen. Probably, the first thing that I would do is to replace the Lucas with a Boyer Bransden. That was the single most important thing that I did to upgrade
my bike.
 

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Wow, that's amazing! The Trident must be really smooth. I mean that there is no way that I could sit on my Bonneville for 8 - 12 hours a day. Not going to happen. Probably, the first thing that I would do is to replace the Lucas with a Boyer Bransden. That was the single most important thing that I did to upgrade
my bike.
I've done it on my Trident....but I was talking about my twin in this instance.
 

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Hi All, I've done some work on Triumph pumps. Many long distance races & world records were made with the stock pump. They are much more than barely adequate in my experience.

Rotory pumps indeed have much more volume, but they are only for a special need with a skilled owner that wants to deal with it. There is no reason for a normal rider to use one.


Remember you are only feeding 2 rod bearings & also the exhaust tappets on later bikes. Not much volume is needed. Rod bearing wear is certainly not a problem on our bikes. The return side is a stand alone system even though it shares same casting as feed side. Normal pump works fine here also.

In my experience the #1 problem is dirt in oil that holds ball open in pump. Interesting mostly happens after oil line work. The dirt is actually rubber chip from probably new hose as it was forced over steel line.

Drive block can wear, but last a long time. Following spec for clearance in manual is needed. A worn block will give lost motion & low volume.

Some times the ball seats wear oval for some reason & leak. I've not personally been able to reset them successfully by tapping ball with punch & hammer.

The plungers can groove & wear, but not much if you keep oil clean by changing at recommended interval. I've seen even worn plungers pump well enough to not give low pressure. Normally the ball seating from dirt or wear is the issue, followed by drive block wear.

You can bench test a pump exactly as stated in shop manual. A good pump will not drop oil in ports. NOT A TRACE!! Hold the pump to the light & get a reflection of light on the oil. If it moves at all it's bad!

I've worked with owners that pump tested good, but low pressure/volume. I test pump & it drops slightly. Hmmm. It failed. I've never seen a pump that passed test not pump properly. If plungers are very worn, oil will leak by them when you cover ports with finger & push plunger.

Interestingly the new reproduction pumps tend to fail more than an original. Most important to fully test any new pump, just as you test an old one. I keep one in my box as a reminder & bad example.

Thousands of these old bikes are running perfectly with original type pumps.

I've never worked with valve pump the later T140 came with. It is said they can pump dirt through better. I don't know.

Back to the bike on hand. We'll know more after owner does pressure test. If it's low, only then further diagnosis is in order. First step is very careful removal & visual inspection of pressure relief valve to see if it's partly stuck open. If ok clean & reinstall. Retest pressure as they can self free during removal. Next step is inspect crank end seal, then pump. If those are good, time to look into rod bearing clearance or crank problems. Wrong tappets & tappet oil metering can cause low pressure too, but unlikely as this motor seems unmolested.
Don
 

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From what I read and hear,the Morgo rotary pump creates problems that the stock pump never has...As mentioned above, many Triumphs are raced with stock pumps and high mileage engines most often have a stock pump..
 

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I agree that one should not replace parts unless their is a valid reason. However, if there are upgrades out there, why not take advantage of them in order to have a better riding experience? My bike runs much smoother with a Boyer Bransden electronic ignition and my 7 plate clutch means that I'm not replacing cables as often. (Although, my left forearm is not getting the workout it once did).
 

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Hi All, My bike was in storage 34 years, and in the mean time internet was developed. Prior there was mostly only word of mouth for these old bikes. Now the whole world is chatting on forums like this & the world is at your finger tips for parts.

Of course we want the best for us & our bikes, so we tend to look into things that might give better service & longer motor life. Or just works better.

I used to think the piston pump was a relic of the past & should be upgraded... I mean only one stroke of oil per 2 revolutions of crank. That's nuts. I was wrong!! In real life it works good & resists wet sumping.

Being super cheap & Triumph parts can be costly I started do research on what is actually best. I have an advantage many may not in that Raber's was only 50 miles from me. Soon developed a relationship with Raber's. After hanging around there a while learning all I could & reading forums I started thinking about upgrades that cure a problem that doesn't exist. Don't get me wrong, Triumphs have lots of room for upgrades. Of the top of my head, 7 plate, ignition & charging systems. Head lights. I'll stop there.

Getting back to the Morgo rotary. If you study the install manual regarding bleeding, modifying pressure relief valve etc. I got to wondering if this is an upgrade or downgrade for most owners. Certainly would be down grade for me. After reading about so many problems for road use I decided no rotary for me. The way I see it the rotary is for a specific operating condition where motor has very high oil demand. Not sure what that would be. My thoughts drift to a very high capacity oil cooler, but little oil gets into head where the heat is, so modifications might be needed to head.

If I needed an oil pump, maybe a late Triumph type 4 valve could be considered an upgrade, but I probably would just put a normal 2 valve back in.

Point is, each has to study the parts in question & determine if they are indeed an upgrade for your use.

What worries me is quality of the replacement parts. That's a tough one.
Don
 

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AFAIK the rotary pump will not lose its prime if it has a head of oil over it. ie if there is oil in the tank then it won't lose its prime. And when changing oil, I pinch the rubber hose on the feed side. This stops oil draining backwards into the tank as you are draining the tank and [because I have a Charlies type filter] replacing the oil filter. Once I replace the sump plate and refill the tank I remove the pinch tool. Never had an issue.
If you let your bike stand for months without use then it is possible that all the oil will drain and wet sump the motor. This could possibly [its a long shot tbh] also drain the pump and it will lose its prime. I'm not so sure that the head of pressure from the tank is great enough to force all the oil into the sump for an OIF. It would be for a dry frame, there the danger of the pump losing its prime is greater because the oil tank sits much higher.
 

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i fitted an aftermarket high capacity oil pump to the Daytona and had nothing but trouble with it.
After many months of frustration I refitted the original 45 year old pump and all my troubles went away.
The motor happily runs 65psi hot at 4000rpm after an hours running here in the tropics on 15/50 synthetic oil.
ET knew what he was doing obviously.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
The weather here has finally turned warm enough to spend some time in the garage so I'm back working on the bike. Per the original thread title it's a '76 Bonneville, T140V. I have removed the clutch assembly, the rubbers inside are oozing black goo so I am assuming they are shot. I cannot seem to separate the outer clutch basket from the inner hub. I have Glenn's book, online videos and searches, as well as the shop manual. They all seem to say that they slip apart. They seem pretty well held together to me. How do I separate the inner assembly in order to replace the rubbers?
 

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they sometimes slip apart - as you have found ; not always - easiest way as you have it off the bike is to support the outer drum flat on a bench but lifted on a few narrow blocks of wood -- then you can drive the clutch centre through with a suitable drift and a hammer
 

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Hi Rick, I've found all the T140 type bikes the inner hub tends to be quite tight in the cush hub spline.

I usually mark the splines as they are now. It seems to go back together easier to keep them matched. I've last few been using a "puller" arrangement to remove the center Using a threaded rod, spacers, nuts. This way you don't need to drive it out. It really makes it easier to assemble though. A press makes the job very easy. I posted some photos not long ago on the threaded rod tool. I did a detailed photo shoot a few years back on replacing the rubbers also.

After you get the hub & basket apart you'll see the hex heads for the bolts that hold cush hub together. Looking at the front side, you see the ends of these bolts, which look something like straight slot screws. That is swaging the factory did to keep bolts from coming loose. This swaging MUST be 100% ground off or the threads will be damaged in the cover plate during removal. I use cut off wheel in Dremel to grind it. You'll need to replace the 3 bolts. I simply peen the bolt ends to keep them from coming loose. I use a drop of Loctite 273 on the threads as well.

The thrust washer will often be worn so plan on getting a new one along with the rubbers.

From the photo I might be seeing some wear on the grooves in basket & hub?? Or is it just sludge build up. If the wear is minor I feel it worth filing them smooth again. If wear is bad, you should replace the entire unit. I filed bad wear on mine, but it never really works properly if the grooves are too wide. Also the spider inside cush hub wears on sides & the bores in cover plates wear & allows too much play. This can allow the inner cush drum to cant & not allow perfect pressure on plates, leading to slipping.

Check your old emails, I sent the clutch rubber replace photos to you 10/19/18. If they are lost I can resend.

Please post a detailed photo of the grooves on basket & cush hub.

Don
 

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Discussion Starter #34
I used a deep socket as a drift and separated the center hub from the basket, all is good. I have attached a couple of pictures, the rubbers seemed to be turning to mush. I plan to replace the basket, not that I want to throw parts at it but I don't want to do this multiple times and it is well grooved. The primary drive chain was adjusted to the limit so I am replacing that as well. Does this require that I also replace the drive sprocket? Pics attached of that as well. I'm interested on feedback on the condition of the center section, to me it looks good.

Don, I do not have access to a press, not readily anyway, I am searching for the thread with your threaded rod tool but haven't found it yet. If you can point it out I'd appreciate it.
 

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That basket looks good to me. I’d deburr it and use it. That basket has less wear than the ones on any of my bikes. If you use a Dremel or die grinder with a stone bigger in diameter than the width of the slot and run it down each slot it will take that edge burr right off.
 

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Hi Rick, The photos still don't show the exact wear of grooves in my eye. From my experience if you just deburr it will work, but not really release properly as it should. The wear in bottom of grooves is important also as the tangs will tend to catch on those as well. You have about the same grooving I had from what I can see in photos.

If you can afford it, I would replace both the basket & inner hub. Price it out. A complete assembly may be less costly. That will give you a good 20k miles of trouble free operation later. I find the plates & tangs wear faster after filing the grooves.

I would file the inner flat if you decide to reuse it. Replacing basket & filing inner is not bad as it cures half the problem. In any case any wear whatsoever on thrust washer causes drag on clutch release due to play that allows basket to move sideways.

I can't say exactly why, but wear on all these parts won't show up for the first several miles on road test. But after 40+ & the motor/cases get fully heat soaked the drag & other issues show their ugly head. With all new parts this hot issue is greatly reduced.

Regarding engine sprocket it looks ok to reuse from what I see in photo. If slipper is still thick I would probably reuse it also. The chain wears 3 grooves in it. That is fine. The rollers then make contact & wear pretty much stops. But estimate how much plastic is left in bottom of grooves in worn part & then decide.

This would be a perfect time to install 7 plate kit & 650 springs. Either Hyde or Aerco. They really work well.

Grease thrust washer & rollers to hold them in place. Don't forget the spring bolts. Hold them with rubber bands. Draw parts together. Before home tight verify thrust washer is still properly setting on it's shoulder & spring bolt square heads are properly located. The flat head should be locked into the hub recess. You'll feel it. Look at all the parts before assembly so you understand how they fit.

The tool is just threaded rod, 2 nuts & 2 flat washers sized to fit just right. One on the back that will hold splined hub, the other to fit on the outside. Really works treat & doesn't tend to displace thrust washer or rollers. Driving can do that as well as dent the hub.
I used an old water pump hub on top, but a washer works also.

Don
 

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Rick, This is my basket & hub before filing. I couldn't find file at the moment on the after for basket, but I took all the grooving out of side of slots & about 50% of grooving out of bottom of slots.

I was doing it as an experiment really to see the side effects. I replaced rubbers & thrust washer, plates at same time. I was disappointed with the end results. I used new 7 plate Hyde on assembly. Old plates were Hyde 7 plate & was catching on grooves. That caused both slip & drag.

We each decide what we will do depending on budget & expected results. There is no only one way to do this. For sure if you file grooves it will work better than now.
Don
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Dammit I just need to be more careful and organized. I pressed the center on with threaded rod only to look down and see the bolts sitting on the workbench. I never do anything once but by the time I finally get it right I could do it all over again so much more easily because I've just done it three times.

I greased the hub, put the bearings and thrust washer on and put it in the freezer. Then used a heat gun to warm up the other pieces. It was still a tight fit but I think that may have made it easier. The threaded rod draws them together nicely.

Once again thanks for the help here.
 

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Hi Rick

Originally posted by: Rick Lyons
I never do anything once but by the time I finally get it right I could do it all over again so much more easily because I've just done it three times.
This could be the opening line of my biography.

Regards
Peg.
 
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