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Discussion Starter #21
Hi everyone. Thanks for your invaluable input so far. OK, my next question is: I have the carbs off for cleaning. Past experience has shown me that this is horribly difficult with varnished carbs as the passageways are so small and inaccessible. so far I've tried soaking in cola, brake cleaner, sonic baths, with limited success. I think I've dropped lucky here as Peg said, the fuel in the bike did not contain ethanol, but nevertheless there is brown oily sludge there.
So my plan is to take everything off them and soak all the metal parts in acetone which is a truly wicked cleaning agent, but which will attack rubber and plastic. When I strip the carbs are there any hidden rubber or plastic bits I might miss? Is my plan sound? I also have access to compressed air for blowing through the various holes. Any advice most welcome, and again thanks.

Lee
 

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Hi,
Floats and float needle tips, cold start plunger , overflow pipes, carb top cap. Adjuster screw O rings. That is all I can think of.
Did you find the cunningly hidden pilot jets deep in the float bowl?
Regards
Peg
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Hi,
Floats and float needle tips, cold start plunger , overflow pipes, carb top cap. Adjuster screw O rings. That is all I can think of.
Did you find the cunningly hidden pilot jets deep in the float bowl?
Regards
Peg
Hi Peg

Thanks. I have the carbs off but nothing stripped yet so I've yet to find the cunningly hidden pilot jets lol. At least I know where to look. Will keep you posted and fingers crossed I don't wreck anything!
 

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My carbs are earlier than yours ('72-73 Concentrics, so can't comment on how to clean your MkIIs (?)) but I've had success in carb cleaning using the Putoline Carb cleaner. It allegedly dissolves the varnish - not sure that brake cleaner does the same job. Maybe buy a bottle rather than an aerosol and try soaking the carbs in it?
 

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Discussion Starter #25
The cold start enrichers will be in poor condition and leaking after 8 years sitting under spring pressure, unless the Previous owner had the sense to lift them before he laid the bike up. The original units have too high spring pressure that distorts the sealing rubbers, modern redesigned enrichers have much lighter springs and last a lot longer. I expect that you will need to replace them.
OK, so to save time I will get some new ones. Any do's and don'ts here? Can you recommend a good place to buy this stuff from? I also want the gaskets and O rings out of the carbs I guess. To update, RHS carb is apart and soaking in acetone for an hour or so. I did find the pilot jet Peg! It would have taken me a lot longer without your help. Another question, are these Mk 2 Amals 2000, 2600, 2900 or smoothbore?
 

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OK, so to save time I will get some new ones. Any do's and don'ts here? Can you recommend a good place to buy this stuff from? I also want the gaskets and O rings out of the carbs I guess. To update, RHS carb is apart and soaking in acetone for an hour or so. I did find the pilot jet Peg! It would have taken me a lot longer without your help. Another question, are these Mk 2 Amals 2000, 2600, 2900 or smoothbore?
30mm carbs are in the 2900 series. I think (but I am not certain) that they are different castings that can be bored out for a range of throat sizes, when the throat size exceeds the castings capabilities, then you move to the the next casting size or series.


 

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I order all my Amal carbs and spares on line from Hitchcocks ( they are Enfield specialists but list all Amals and parts )
always found them to be quick to deliver - parts are genuine and keenly priced
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Thank you all, your help is much appreciated and I'm enjoying myself hugely delving into this new territory. Of course this might change when I cant start it or it breaks down etc. Anyway, next question is, re oil filters, it seems there are a couple of options. Some of you have advised me to fit one, so either a paper element that sits on the sump plate in place of the original gauze, or an external filter. How do each fit and which is the best?
Lee
 

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There are two schools of thought for the OIF machines it seems: the 'Charlies' type, which sits in the sump and filters oil before it goes to the pump, and the Norton type, which filters oil on its way back from the pump.

There are pros and cons and I'll let the better-qualified expound on these. Some people (aka me) have them in both feed and return, for no better reason than I bought one, and then thought I ought to have the other, and ended up fitting both to my '73 TR7RV. AIUI, people have looked at the implications of filters in either line, and some have determined that the filter does not adversely impact circulation, flow rates and pressures. All I wanted to do was to avoid a future crankshaft sludge trap clogging having spent a lot of money getting it cleaned out.

The sump one is a direct replacement for the original flat sump plate, and has a pipe out of it which connects to the feed side of the pump. Unless you have an early OIF, it's a direct fit. The early OIFs have a pump feed a couple of inches up the side of the spine tube, that needs to be removed and blanked off. Oil therefore drains from the spine tube, through the filter and out to the pump via the pipe out of the sump plate. LPW sell these kits, for example..

Paul Goff sells a range of filter kits to go in the return side. The filter on my Tiger 750 sits just behind the gearbox on the timing side and is fairly unobtrusive - it bolts to one of the rear engine mounting bolts.

EDIT: Found a photo of the return side filter mounting.

20200118_195438.jpg


(runs off to pull up a chair and get tin helmet.....)
 

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Hi Lee, A few thoughts. Try white vinegar to clean carbs. Only 30 min. soaking at a time. Submerge well & make sure vinegar gets inside all the tiny passages. Rinse well with hot water. Makes carb look new. Original aged color will return in month or so. It is an acid so don't leave in vinegar for hours. I've use vinegar pretty much exclusively for 7 years now. It's amazing.

Regarding oil filter, your brake hoses etc. may be a factor. The frame sump plate type is straight forward no brainer. Tricor filter is compact & mounts to rear fender tabs on backbone. If it will fit..??

Does not matter in frame or return line. Brand doesn't matter. They all work equally well & clean oil equally well. Get the one that you like the looks of & gives best fit. Should you choose a return line filter, remember you still need to clean frame screen. The in frame sump filter replaces screen so you kill 2 birds with one stone. I like my in frame Motao. Easy to replace filter. Don't need to disconnect oil hose. Just remove 4 nuts & plate drops down. Remove filter stem nut & replace filter. Replace gasket & put plate back on. I grease gasket so it doesn't stick. No scraping gasket.
Don
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Hello again. I just wanted to say thank you again for your input. TR7RVMan thank you for your thoughts. I will try the vinegar on a pair of very varnished Mikunis i have off of a Yamaha. Meanwhile I'm hoping the acetone did the trick on these Amals, which are now back together with new o rings, seals and choke plunger assemblies. Gearbox has fresh oil.
Primary oil had no bits in it which is good news, so that is all back together and oiled as well.
I bought a sump plate filter assembly and fitted it. I think that all i need to do now is fill the oil tank, put the freshly charged battery back in and the spark plugs, put some petrol in and kick away...? Have i missed anything? Just to double check, should i prime the oil pump or not?
Next question is fuel. Dave M suggested swilling the tank with shell V power. Should I use it to run the bike too? As far as I know the engine hasn't been modified for use with unleaded, but the previous owner ran it with what I can only describe as a net bag with 3 silver smartie - shaped bits of metal dangling in the petrol. I assume this is some sort of additive to make the petrol less harmful to the engine. Thoughts on this issue anyone?
 

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Hi RedLee,

In advance of Don's more expert reply, I have a few suggestions - albeit not for your specific Bonnie - but I suggest that the basic principles apply..

The net bag is, I think, a device intended to boost the octane rating, whether or not it works I cannot say.

I run my classic Triumphs (73 TR7RV, 72 T100R) on 97 RON, partly because there's less possibility of pinking, but more because in most parts of the UK (Scotland and the SW excepted IIRC) it should have no ethanol, unlike 95 RON which does. However, we should expect to have ethanol in 97 RON soon throughout the UK

Re: priming the oil pump, in my rebuilds I tend to fill the crankcase as full as I can with the oil I'm going to use (via the timing mark access hole behind the barrels), and with plugs out gently kick it over as much as I can for a day or so. Put a few squirts down the pushrod tubes too to get oil to the tappets and the cam lobes. Leave it all for a couple of days.

That way the oil will get into the bottom of the barrels, the primary, the cams, the tappets and the crank bearings and big ends. It should also find its way into the oil pump. Take the oil pressure relief valve out and wait for oil to dribble out of here too. Once you see oil there, you've got oil in the pump and passageways - or at least that's the best that you can do.

Re-fit the oil relief valve, and then drain the oil out of the crankcase sump. Remove the primary tension adjuster plug and drain the oil out of the primary (could take overnight). IME, there's no need to remove the chain tensioner - but it will take a few hours for the oil to drain past the tensioner nut. Once it's dry, put the plug back in and add the recommended volume of oil into the primary.

By now, you should have little or no oil in the crankcase sump, the recommended oil in the primary, and oil in the pump and galleries. Fill the spine tank to the recommended level, add the spark plugs and fuel, and give it a kick.

Once its running you should see oil return to the tank within a minute, and hopefully the oil light will go out too! If neither happen, investigate. The oil light will probably go out before the oil return to the tank can be seen.

IMO, the way I do it gives me the best chance of there being oil where it needs to be when the engine first fires, and the pump the best chance of quickly sending oil to the big ends, and being scavenged back from the crankcase sump.

I've first-started 3 engines in the past year or so, and none have gone on to give any indication of oil starvation issues in subsequent running.

Others with far more expertise than me will no doubt have further suggestions.
 

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No problem. That's what has worked for me, and it seems logical to be as sure as you can that oil is where it needs to be. Don will be along soon though (he's a few hours behind us) and he'll have a more expert view.

I may be excessively cautious, but provided the crankcase is empty when you start it, I can't see any harm being done.
 

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Hi Lee, Very welcome! A few thoughts. I've started many bikes & cars after extended storage. I've seen many started that I just observed. There is the thread about waking the sleeping beast. What I've observed is after carb is cleaned, verified for spark. Many just start it up. Truth be told, I've not observed obvious damage from this. I personally do more conservative route by lubing all I can before start up.

Regarding bores, I've seen several struggle to start motor until oil was squirted into bores. The rings were dry & could not make good compression. Needless to say I expect they took some scratches during the failed starting attempts.

Oiling bores is very important. Cam/tappets is next. However, they get oil quickly after motor is started. Cam bushings are also splash oiled.

I got lots of free oil from work. I filled oil to the level of valve covers & put lots of oil on top of pistons. Let set overnight. This filled primary also through main bearing. I could see oil through primary filler hole until it filled & I put plug back in.

Drained primary & motor sump next day. Put 350cc oil in primary (too much!!). Now I do correct 150cc amount. Put 120cc oil in motor sump through exhaust valve cover. Put valve covers back on. Changed oil in frame & cleaned frame screen. Filled frame 2" lower than bottom of filler neck. Turned motor pistons up & sucked oil from spark plug holes. Kicked motor over several times to expels excess oil from top of pistons that couldn't suction out. Put spark plugs back in. Cleaned points & verified spark while kicking. Static checked spark timing point cam locked at full advance. Carb had already been taken apart & cleaned. Set mixture screw 1.5 turns out.

Installed new spark plugs. Tickled carb well. Put on full choke. Gave hard kick & started first kick. Smoked bad for a few moments. Then minimal smoke. Went on road test down the block. When exhaust started to warm, all the excess oil from cylinder oiling started burning in mufflers it smoked really bad. Within 10-20 min all oil was burnt from exhaust. No more smoke. This has been my experience. My rust ring was visible for many thousands of miles, yet used no oil. Just to day these bores & pistons covered 34k miles. Still doesn't use oil.

Again I did the very best approach with free oil. A good friend's bike cleaned carbs, points. Changed oil in tank. Drained motor sump. Added 120cc through TDC plug. Oil into plug holes. A few kicks. Plugs back in. Good tickle. Started right up. Went for road test & soon no smoke. Put about 8k miles on motor, then started leaking at rocker boxes. Tear down showed no damage to cams, rockers, valves, big in shells, crank journals.

My bike had slight rust ring in cyl from where rings had sat 34 years in dry spare rook. Other bike had substantial rust ring at where pistons had sat. Light rusting above piston. Rust ring was visible for thousands of miles. Light rust gone after first road test.

So don't stress too much it should be fine. If you do not put oil in motor sump it will take at least 50-120 seconds to see oil coming out return tube in frame. Scary long, but normal. I never add during routine sump filter cleaning. I always add 120cc on fresh build or bringing from storage.

Oil pressure light should go out within 10-15 seconds after start up. Most often will go out in 2-3 seconds. You do not need to prime oil pump. It will self prime nearly instantly.

Oil pressure light out means you have a few PSI pressure. Not "good" pressure. Still I'd not worry about that. I not seen a pump fail to pump enough oil on start up after storage. Not saying it's not possible, but the pumps work really well.

The oil pump is 2 pumps in one. Feed & return (scavenge). Even though they share the same casting, the only common point is The drive block. Other than that they are stand alone pumps that must be thought of separately.

One thing though if you have no feed, eventually you'll have no return because there is no oil in sump. So what's wrong? That's my point. You don't really know. The oil light is a good clue. If oil light goes out, you know pump is at least moving some oil. If you suspect pump problems you need oil pressure test gauge & vacuum gauge for testing.

Again, don't worry about it if light goes out keep it running. One thing that gets me every time is often the sump empties quickly before feed pump catches up. So you'll see return in frame, then it stops. My heart stops too! In a moment the return comes back. Still gets me every time.

I've started a few thousand motors in my years. Never get over the butterflies before start up! Such a big moment.

I'm working on learning to post videos. I'll post some when I can. Not learning too fast though, little steeper learning curve than I expected.
Don
 

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Discussion Starter #36
  1. Wow. Most comprehensive. You guys should put out your own manuals on the subject - so knowledgeable. So now I know how to do the oil and petrol, I have belatedly discovered that the battery is FUBAR. it was putting out 4 volts and not even trying to light up the dash. So new battery and you guys talk about the motobatt. Can I get one off the shelf today or are they online only? I googled the equivalent Yuasa and got this: YT12B-BS maintenance-free battery. Would this fit, and would it do the job? I am impatient to get her going!
 

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Hi RedLee,

Both of my Triumphs have the bog-std, no frills, Yuasa YB-9B, lead acid. Halfords stock them on the shelf.

No doubt there are better batteries on line, but this one fits perfectly. I've got a Genius1 maintenance charger too - also from Halfords. That keeps it topped up if the bike is standing for a while.
 

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I'm sure there are better batteries, but that one should be on a shelf for ~£35, it fits, and it'll work.

At least you can go to Halfords, look at it and they may have a fancier battery of the same size on the shelf. You know what size fits then.

Let us know how you get on.
 
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