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T140V '73 / Being built T140V '73 with T140E '78 engine / Bits in boxes T140V '77
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello Rats

I know there is a lot of information on the web about e.i. systems.

I have a running T140V with Boyer MK3 and mini coils. Starts one kick. .. except when battery is slightly depleted, such as slight drain from USB socket. Then I have to wheel bike back in, abandon planned ride Voltage is still around 12.5v; tested loading with all lights on for couple of minutes and recovers voltage immediately.

I have a 2008 car,off the road, can start it with flat lead-acid battery jumped off a tiny lithium battery, maximum output of lithium battery is 12v.

Why are e.i.s in vintage Triumph's so sensitive to slightly not full voltage?

My battery is a motobatt. Bit old, but this isn't the query. It won't start my bike if it's on about 12.5 volts. I can start a 1.4 litre car (turning starter motor AND firing e.i ) with a handheld battery that is no use at all on my Triumph.

This isn't a battery thread! I want to know if there's a reliable, not FUSSY e.i. system for the 140E bike I'm building.

If not, why not? I don't know, but can't believe Honda owners have this trouble. Actually. .. I owned a Honda. Don't believe I ever saw the battery--the motor always cranked, engine always fired. It just wasn't an issue. That was thirty years ago, so older technology than a new system for a Triumph.

I get the tinkering, tickling, fettling. I don't get the e I. sensitivity. 馃

And, yes I have a battery optimiser, which I often use. That again isn't the question

Thanks!
 

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I鈥檓 having good success with the Wassell/Vape system. The battery has been a bit low and no kicking back occurred.

As a bonus, it appears to be the cheapest electronic ignition and is robustly made.
 

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i have an ancient boyer mark3 that ive run for at least 30 years. it starts the bike all the way down to 10.5 volts, iirc, below that you walk.

something seems wrong to me if 12.5 volts on your machine isn't enough. what is the actual voltage at the control box input wire? at the coil terminals? if you have high resistance in the wires, switches, or connectors you might have 12.5 at the battery but much less downstream.
 

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T140V '73 / Being built T140V '73 with T140E '78 engine / Bits in boxes T140V '77
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
i have an ancient boyer mark3 that ive run for at least 30 years. it starts the bike all the way down to 10.5 volts, iirc, below that you walk.

something seems wrong to me if 12.5 volts on your machine isn't enough. what is the actual voltage at the control box input wire? at the coil terminals? if you have high resistance in the wires, switches, or connectors you might have 12.5 at the battery but much less downstream.
I'll check tomorrow, left bike outside.

I have a handlebar voltmeter. Go down to 11.9V when kicking/not firing, then recovers. With all lights on, about 100W drops to about 12.3v, then recovers to 12.5 after all switched off

But starts if battery is charged to full with optimiser, and I've now charged it. So won't be a proper reading/test--I'd have to leave it a couple of days with USB port connected (no devices in USB port, I'm just assuming that might be the issue, a slow discharge).

You seem to have an exceptional unit? It's all over internet these e.i. don't work below 12V.
 

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My Boyer will work at quite a bit below 12 volt although it is connected to a fire alarm battery which only ever shows 12.2 v when the bike is switched off. The voltage will dip to under 12 volt when running lights at low speed and rise to over 13 v when riding fast. Maybe try a Yuasa NP7-12 battery at around 拢17. My Boyer box is fitted right beside the battery which might keep the voltage up a bit and i keep all connections very clean and tight. I have a USB charger fitted on the handlebars and it drains nothing at all when the bike is parked. It runs my satnav. but for the most part, is a very good charge indicator for the bike as voltage is constantly displayed on the unit
 

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its been so many years since i had any trouble with mine i cant recall for sure the actual voltage at which it gives up. i use a higher wattage alternator and a tiny shorai lithium battery as well, so the voltage is always high.

your handlebar voltmeter tells you what the voltage is at the handlebars. what you want to know is what the voltage is at the white wire going into the black box (if positive ground). unclip the connector at the white wire coming out of the module and test the incoming battery voltage there.

if its good, then test the outgoing voltage at the coils, at the end of the circuit originating at the black wire on the ignition module.

worth a try. if the problem is a corroded ignition switch or high-resistance connectors that are causing a voltage drop, then fixing those might solve the problem. if not, you're no worse off than before.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Maybe try a Yuasa NP7-12 battery at around 拢17.
How do you work around those tab connections? Considered a home security alarm battery, but thought the connections might be unreliable
 

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i have two of these


one in a 1972 T120, the other in a 1970 commando. they weigh a bit over a pound, can be mounted in any position, never leak, are small enough to put in th ebattery box or anywhere else, and don't lose a charge while sitting. my norton is a one-kick start even after sitting for several months.

theyre expensive, but they last. i bought the one in my T120 six years ago and it has never failed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
i have two of these


one in a 1972 T120, the other in a 1970 commando. they weigh a bit over a pound, can be mounted in any position, never leak, are small enough to put in th ebattery box or anywhere else, and don't lose a charge while sitting. my norton is a one-kick start even after sitting for several months.

theyre expensive, but they last. i bought the one in my T120 six years ago and it has never failed.
I'm sure it's good. $90 for the charger. $120 for battery. Don't think I could prise my wallet open for that much... 馃サ

The lithium battery I use to emergency start a car was about 拢20 with charger. (Has usb ports and light too.) It's 1.2Ah. Maximum output voltage is regulated at 12V, I think. I'd use it in my bike, except it won't work, although does crank and fire car... 馃
don't understand why lithium batteries are so expensive for motorcycles, need phenomenally expensive chargers. And although light, are bulked out so no smaller.


I'll check bike wire connections tomorrow. Not sure how, guess checking for low resistance. It's possible I need a new battery, don't know. If I do, 拢17 for a battery smaller than a lithium might tempt me most. It's a tenth of the cost, as I have a charger.

(Although this isn't a battery thread.) 馃槸
 

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these shorais are so small i stuff them in bubble wrap to fill out the empty space in the battery box. $120 over five years is $2 per month of zero hassles and zero maintenance.

do you have a VOM? just undo the connectors and measure voltage at the bare ends
 

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Hi Alex,

Wrong question. All EI available for these old heaps are 12V; battery fitted, a 'good' one should be able to maintain well over 12V (lead-acid-type battery, so including AGM and gel, 12.6V). Volts at the EI input less than 12V for some reason, any EI (except Boyer-Bransden MicroPower and Pazon Smart Fire) is only a switch, it's the ignition coils they switch that supply the HT spark, an EI might switch correctly but no guarantee both coils have charged sufficiently to supply an HT spark.

Lengthy post, because you're clearly labouring under several misapprehensions ... :)

all over internet these e.i. don't work below 12V.
There is a very great deal of electrical bollocks all over the internet ...

Boyer MK3 and mini coils.
:confused: This is not clear; what are "mini coils"? In particular, what is the primary resistance of each one?

Starts one kick. .. except when battery is slightly depleted,
Voltage is still around 12.5v; tested loading with all lights on for couple of minutes and recovers voltage immediately.
have a handlebar voltmeter. Go down to 11.9V when kicking/not firing, then recovers. With all lights on, about 100W drops to about 12.3v, then recovers to 12.5 after all switched off
what you want to know is what the voltage is at the white wire going into the black box (if positive ground). unclip the connector at the white wire coming out of the module and test the incoming battery voltage there.
As @speedrattle Kevin intimated, where is the meter actually connected to the bike's electrics?

Nevertheless:-

. "the white wire going into the black box" is always the supply - connected to battery -ve - nothing to do with "ground" (aka "earth")).

. When testing an electrical circuit, never, never, never disconnect ("unclip") anything and then take Volts readings, they will be useless for diagnosis because there then isn't any load in the circuit. :oops: Assuming standard male-female spade connection, slide an insulator to expose a bit of metal terminal, ignition and kill switches on, connect the meter between the exposed terminal and battery +ve, slide the insulator back fully over the terminal.

voltage
at the white wire going into the black box
good, then test the outgoing voltage at the coils, at the end of the circuit originating at the black wire on the ignition module.
Ye-ea-ah ...

Box Black wire is part of the same ignition circuit as the Box White wire, the Box is just a switch, essentially simply the replacement for the original points.

Be aware B-B (and clones) specifically for twins (and singles) have a 'feature' that's a mortal, royal 馃槚 pita when troubleshooting. Specifically, if shortly after the Box is powered-up, it doesn't 'detect engine movement' - varying Volts and Amps from the "Stator" (the non-moving bit in the old points compartment, not the alternator stator), caused by the Rotor on the exhaust cam moving past the Stator magnets - the Box switches off the Black wire output to the ignition coil(s); the output's restored when either The Box does 'detect engine movement' or if the Box supply is turned off and turned back on again.

Part of the problem is the time between powering-up the Box and it powering-down the coils output varies from Box to Box :rolleyes: (but it's always short). Nothing you can do about it, :mad: all you can do is be aware of it and, when testing Box output to the coils, connect your meter before turning on the ignition and/or kill switch.

Also, do you know if the meter you're using is correctly-calibrated? Some electrical faults show up as Volts differing by a few tenths, so you can't diagnose with a poorly-calibrated Voltmeter.

handlebar voltmeter. Go down to 11.9V when kicking/not firing, then recovers. With all lights on, about 100W drops to about 12.3v, then recovers to 12.5 after all switched off
Not logical. If "lights on, about 100W" causes the meter display to go from 12.5V to 12.3V (btw, the latter on a properly-calibrated meter indicates a half-discharged battery), there is something very wrong in the ignition circuit if just that causes the meter display to go from 12.5V to 11.9V. A different EI will not fix this.

starts if battery is charged to full with optimiser
Fully-charged lead-acid-type battery will measure 12.6V on a correctly-calibrated meter. Any higher meter reading across a recently-charged battery is 'surface charge', dissipates either over a little time or immediately the battery is required to power something.

I have a 2008 car,off the road, can start it with flat lead-acid battery jumped off a tiny lithium battery, maximum output of lithium battery is 12v.
You are confused:-

. Volts are units of potential difference between two places in an electrical circuit.

The lithium battery I use to emergency start a car was about 拢20 with charger. (Has usb ports and light too.) It's 1.2Ah. I'd use it in my bike, except it won't work, although does crank and fire car...
. You aren't comparing like with like:-

.. The fire/burglar alarm @rambo Geoff recommends is 7 Ah, the battery Triumph fitted to your bike new was 9 Ah, etc. Note the difference with "1.2Ah"?

. Modern battery specs. quote "cold cranking Amps" (ccA); that is the measure of a battery's ability to electric-start, nothing whatsoever to do with the long-time current a battery can supply ("Ah"). Note the vast difference between ccA and Ah figures? Educated guess says your "lithium battery I use to emergency start a car" has a high ccA.

Why are e.i.s in vintage Triumph's so sensitive to slightly not full voltage?
Ummm ... actually it's too many electrically-ignorant owners expect components all the makers say are "12V" to work with less. Not sure which bit of "12V" isn't clear? :confused:

That said, some Boyer-Bransden Mk.3 are known to be particularly sensitive to Volts just below 12V - the coils will supply an HT spark but the Box timing goes doolally. :( But Mk.3 was in production for around a couple of decades, you have to be fairly unlucky to get one of these. And, as I've written above, "MK3 and mini coils" is not clear.

My battery is a motobatt. Bit old, but this isn't the query.
The ignition is not magic, the components do not work in isolation. If your meter is correctly calibrated and it's indicating 11.9V when the bike won't start, absolutely the first component you suspect is the battery.

Electrics are logical. Not troubleshooting logically can miss the actual fault(s). Not really difficult, especially on these old heaps.

It won't start my bike if it's on about 12.5 volts.
As I've written above, depends where the meter you're relying on is actually connected - between the battery -ve and battery +ve terminals does not mean an EI supplied from battery -ve through wires, connections, fuse, ignition and kill switches also has the same p.d. between its supply and battery +ve. Standard positive earth, ignition problem, confirm the meter supplying the reading is connected specifically between the B-B Box White wire connection and the battery +ve terminal.

While you're checking, standard 'positive earth':-

. Any B-B or clone (Pazon, Wassell/Vape) Box Red wire should be connected directly to the battery +ve terminal, not to some other random bit of bike.

. Coil +ve - single coil or coil furtherest from the Box in a multi-coil series array - should be connected either directly to the battery +ve terminal or at least into the bike's loom standard Red wires, again not to some other random bit of bike.

. Coils with single HT lead in use, verify electrical continuity between engine and battery +ve - connected to an engine component, e.g. cylinder head bolt/stud.

I want to know if there's a reliable, not FUSSY e.i. system for the 140E bike I'm building.
As I've written above, all EI are 12V components. 12V-15V across all ignition components under all circumstances, they all work 'til they break. Not difficult.

can't believe Honda owners have this trouble.
They do. I've owned Hondas longer than I've owned Triumphs. Japanese bike electrics ageing are wa-aa-ay more of a pita than Britbike electrics. Plus all the Japanese makers did some really dumb electrical stuff ... :rolleyes:

The problem with your Britbike is you aren't clear where the actual problem is; while you aren't clear where the actual problem is, you can't fix it.

battery optimiser
isn't the question
Not very clever to ignore the problems some are known to cause ...

Considered a home security alarm battery, but thought the connections might be unreliable
Same common 1/4" spade connections as elsewhere on your bike. They aren't normally unreliable, are they on your bike? Albeit don't use the red-, blue- and yellow-insulated bodger's terminals.

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
My voltmeter is not calibrated, but is within 0.2V of handlebar voltmeter. So seems both must be reasonably ok. Anyway. ...

Went into garden. Measured following:
Across battery terminals 12.5
At coil black wire 12.5
Switched ignition on--at coil red wire 12.5

So no voltage loss through ignition. No voltage loss overnight.

Kicked bike over. Started first time. In back garden, so gave zero throttle, don't want to annoy people--immediatley died as expected.

Tried again no throttle, just to see if would fire once more. Won't. Only get smoke through carbs, kickback or nothing.

This often happens. If dies on first kick, won't then start.

Turned ignition off, and on at last moment in case coils being shut down.

The red oil light went out briefly when kicking...
 

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How do you work around those tab connections? Considered a home security alarm battery, but thought the connections might be unreliable
I just fit a spade terminal to replace the ring terminal. You can, to keep the ring terminal for future use, just make up short conversion leads. Two ring terminals bolted together and insulated. Used these batteries for many years without problems and rarely top up the charge in the garage when storing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I just fit a spade terminal to replace the ring terminal. You can, to keep the ring terminal for future use, just make up short conversion leads. Two ring terminals bolted together and insulated. Used these batteries for many years without problems and rarely top up the charge in the garage when storing.
That's one thing resolved. 馃憤

Some, 2.5aH are smaller than the lithium too. Don't need the huge cranking power of a lithium with kickstart.

And think they can be laid on side? Bike undergoing assembly won't have side panels, battery will be right under seat pan, protected from shorting of course.

Also, if my battery is okay, not a big outlay.
No new charger...

Positives (no pun intended) keep on coming.
 

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yes

stuart is right to point out that you want to measure voltage with stuff still hooked up.

but you have been able to start the machine. so there is spark. then you get kickback and smoke through carbs? then you still have spark, but it appears to be advanced.

can you keep it running long enough to strobe test the ignition timing?

if nothing else is wrong and the boyer stator and rotor are positioned correctly for static timing, it appears that your boyer box isnt timing your spark correctly.

re-check your ignition timing. see whether the boyer rotor has come loose on the exhaust cam.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
yes

stuart is right to point out that you want to measure voltage with stuff still hooked up.

but you have been able to start the machine. so there is spark. then you get kickback and smoke through carbs? then you still have spark, but it appears to be advanced.

can you keep it running long enough to strobe test the ignition timing?

if nothing else is wrong and the boyer stator and rotor are positioned correctly for static timing, it appears that your boyer box isnt timing your spark correctly.

re-check your ignition timing. see whether the boyer rotor has come loose on the exhaust cam.
Well, I'll have to learn, buy a strobe.

Then ride out somewhere out of the city. Can't really have bike doing 4,000 revs in garden, it's very peaceful here during the day.

Of course, if I mess things up, might not get to ride home 馃槙

Sometimes it's okay though. Why would it sometimes and sometimes not be?

I'll get my screwdriver and check rotar..
 

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That's one thing resolved. 馃憤

Some, 2.5aH are smaller than the lithium too. Don't need the huge cranking power of a lithium with kickstart.

And think they can be laid on side? Bike undergoing assembly won't have side panels, battery will be right under seat pan, protected from shorting of course.

Also, if my battery is okay, not a big outlay.
No new charger...

Positives (no pun intended) keep on coming.
The Yuasa battery can be in any position except upside down. Good practice would be upright though. The battery fits well in the battery box of the oif bikes but is not as high as the standard 9amp.
The Yuasa is valve sealed so no external vent tube fitted. I have previously used a 55/60 halogen front lamp with these batteries without a problem but be wary if running low engine speed as the battery may discharge too much. My riding is in the day now so just use an LED day driving lamp cluster for cars to see me. I still have a normal tungsten lamp fitted now but rarely used.
Note... Some people have fitted lithium motorcycle batteries and have had early failure of the battery. Maybe the nature of the old alternator.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Well, I'll have to learn, buy a strobe.

Then ride out somewhere out of the city. Can't really have bike doing 4,000 revs in garden, it's very peaceful here during the day.

Of course, if I mess things up, might not get to ride home 馃槙

Sometimes it's okay though. Why would it sometimes and sometimes not be?

I'll get my screwdriver and check rotar..
Here's the rotar.
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Alloy wheel Vehicle brake Rim


In position and secure. Trace of oil at bottom, not much..
I thought once e.i. systems set they don't lose timing?

Bike often does start kick, usually I would say.. But sometimes (like now!!!) it has a run of not. It's a warm day. Can't see any difference. No air filters, so plenty of air. Always do same start procedure. Kept in house, no damp
I'll buy a new (but small) yuasa battery, that will eliminate any problems there.
 

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One that got me on my Firebird on intermittant non-starting was that the coils (with rubber boots) would arc between the HT and one of the LT terminals. Rotating the LT terminals fixed it. I could see the arcing in the darkened workshop!
 

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Hi Alex,
Across battery terminals 12.5
At coil black wire 12.5
Switched ignition on--at coil red wire 12.5
As posted, this is wrong ...

. "coil black wire 12.5" to where? "coil red wire 12.5" to where?

Also, you cannot measure from "coil black wire" then "Switch ignition on" ... In my last post, I wrote, "When testing an electrical circuit, never, never, never disconnect anything and then take Volts readings, they will be useless for diagnosis because there then isn't any load in the circuit" ... If the ignition switch is not on, do you not realise every component in the ignition circuit, including the EI, is disconnected from the battery? :oops:

The correct way to test the ignition circuit is:-

. The entire circuit must be complete, everything must be connected throughout from battery -ve to battery +ve, no disconnection anywhere.

. For clarity - battery -ve through the fuse if in the standard position, through the ignition switch, through the kill switch to the B-B Transistor Box White wire, the Transistor Box Black wire to one coil -ve terminal, that coil's +ve terminal to the second coil's -ve terminal,

. As I've posted already, ideally that second coil's +ve terminal is connected either directly to the battery +ve terminal, or at least into the loom's Red wires - connecting it to a random bit of bike, as in B-B fitting instructions, you can never be sure the random bit of bike always has a connection to battery +ve, especially if there's one or more other random bits of bike between the first and battery +ve. Risking labouring the point, circuit not complete, any Volts readings for diagnosis are meaningless.

. Similarly, the Box Red wire should be connected to the battery +ve terminal itself. Red wire's the feed to the Box electronics, really dumb idea to make it easy for other electrical component earths to affect the electronics, by connecting the Box Red wire elsewhere on the bike ... :rolleyes:

. After measuring just across the two battery terminals for reference Volts, ignition and kill switches on; during all measurements, keep in mind the Box disconnecting the coils - and therefore the whole ignition circuit - a certain period after being powered-up:-

.. Measure between the battery +ve terminal and the connection between the bike White/Yellow wire (as standard) and the B-B Box White wire; the meter should display the the same as the reference Volts above.

.. Measure between the battery +ve terminal and the connection between the B-B Box Black wire and first coil -ve; properly-functioning Box, the meter absolutely should display up to 1V lower than the original reference Volts, the loss is across the Box's power transistor. Be suspicious if the meter does still display the reference Volts - the Box has powered-down the coils? :rolleyes: Note the meter's lower Volts reading here.

.. Measure between the battery +ve terminal and the connection between the first coil's +ve terminal (with the link wire to the second coil's -ve terminal). If both coils' primary resistances are the same (still waiting for you to post confirmation?), the meter should display half the Volts it displayed at the previous measurement. Same when you measure between the battery +ve terminal and the connection between the link wire and the second coil's -ve terminal.

.. Finally, measure between the battery -ve terminal and the second coil's +ve terminal, the meter should display the original reference Volts. You can measure between the battery +ve terminal and the second coil's +ve terminal but the meter will (should) display zero Volts, which is the same as no connection ...

.. When measuring Volts between battery +ve (or -ve) and any of the coils terminals, if you want to avoid constantly having to turn the ignition off and on again to repower the B-B Box, :mad: disconnect the Box White wire from the bike White/Yellow wire, connect a temporary wire from the White/Yellow to the same coil terminal as the Box Black wire. (y)

So no voltage loss through ignition.
As you posted your test descriptions and results, fraid you can't conclude this with any certainty. (n)

Kicked bike over. Started first time
gave zero throttle
immediatley died
It will do; unlike almost any other carb. while God's been an adult, Amal carbs. don't have anything except the operator to raise the tickover when cold ... Wonder if your bike-starting problems are rooted in this?

Tried again no throttle, just to see if would fire once more. Won't.
I don't know of any Mk.1-carb'ed Britbike that'll start without some throttle.

If it's started and dies, you have to tickle it again too.

If dies on first kick, won't then start.
While this might be another real problem, if you aren't both tickling it after it starts and dies and opening the throttle a little when you kick it, you're using wholly the wrong technique.

don't want to annoy people
Unless the bike has open meggas and you rev. to 5 thou to warm, a Triumph cannot conceivably "annoy" anyone.

Some, 2.5aH are smaller than the lithium
Don't need the huge cranking power of a lithium with kickstart.
... but you do need more than 2.5 Ah. When engine rpm has to be low, if the bike has a standard RM21 alternator, it doesn't supply enough to power ignition and lights, the battery supplies the difference, to be recharged when you can ride at higher engine rpm (or with a charger). There is a reason at least @rambo and I use 7 Ah batteries ...

can be laid on side?
Yep. Sealed AGM.

Ye-ea-ah ... A Brown wire and a Blue wire moulded into a cover? Who'll give me odds that's a length of domestic appliance flex? :ROFLMAO: (For non-British readers, our domestic AC wiring is Brown = live, Blue = neutral, Green/Yellow = earth, appliances like all-plastic lights don't have to have the earth wire).

It might be working OK now but maybe start an Autosparks or VWP shopping list, put on a couple of metres of Black/White and Black/Yellow in either 9/0.30 or 32/0.20 and some "Japanese bullets (and sockets)" and insulators?

Hth.

Regards,
 
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