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Sheep

Part of the problem with our country is that we have too many sheep. That is why the Bush administration was able to get by with blantant lies, deception, and exploitation of our country for their own personal agendy. I have and will always support defending our country and I support all those that put their lives on the line to do it. What I will not support is killing our young men and women, alienating ourselves from the rest of the world, being the neighborhood bully, just because someone says "if you don't support me you must be anti-American and you don't love God?. I respect of office of President but when the person holding that office doesn't then he shouldn't be there and we should not support him. This country became a country because we refused to be sheep but somewhere along the line we have lost that. We have lost the ability to have independent thought and to recognize B.S. when we hear it and refuse to accept it.

I hold our military in the highest regard for doing their duty. That is not a question. My fault is with the people that have put them in harms way without just cause. No I don't buy the "fightem there so we don't have to fightem" here B.S. We were not fighting them at all until we invaded their country. What ever happen to that "OTHER GUY"? Does anyone remember the big tall fellow that was behind blowing our stuff up and killing all of the Americans? Were we supposed to be trying to find him? I supposed we got too busy in Iraq to worry about him. I thought that was a very worthwhile and just cause. Oh yeah, we had to go find those WMD's in Iraq, that were already confirmed to "NOT BE THERE". Oh that became a humanitarian mission. How is tourturing innocent people and violating the rights of our own innocent citizens in our own country humanitarian?

Do you remember the man from Seattle(A Native Born American Citizen with no criminal record) that was wisked away and held captive by our own government for about 3 months? No arrest, no legal representation, no communication with anywone to tell them what had happened to him for months. His crime was that he traveled back and forth to Spain on business. He had done nothing wrong and was not in contact with any terrorist group. That could have been me. I was traveling back and forth to Spain at the same time he was on business. Why do I have to fear my own government when I have done nothing wrong.

So if you want to call me Un-Patriotic for not being a mindless drone that will fall in line without questioning what it is that I am doing, I thank you and will take it as a compliment. After hearing what so many people call patriotism these days, I don't want to be included. I still love and support my country and I am want the country to be the great nation that it was before our "Patriots" did their numberr on it.


Pops

Pops
 

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Jeff when it comes to these discussions you seem to take great delight in making things very personal. But hey that's your modus operandi so as you noticed by now, I'm playing.;)

You might notice that I laughed at the begining of the previous post. I tend not to take myself too seriously. Though I absolutely do believe that my take is rather more balanced than yours. I'm afraid I do agree with pops. You can support the chaps who are doing the fighting whilst completely disagreeing with the reason they are there.

As for the guys they are fighting, interestingly many of the British troops seem to have a fair bit of respect for their enemy. At the end of the day I'm not to keen on the Taliban or their tactics as I'm sure they aren't either. Its the whole religious mania thing that realy scares me about those bearded be turbanned misogenists. but at the end of the day they are in their own land and as they see it defending it. We after all are not. We are over there. We're not even defending our empire anymore. Well the British anyway. Maybe US forces are trying to create their govts new empire?

I'm guessing you're a military man or ex military as you seem to rather like belittling those non fighting people like us. Interestingly I do know a few chaps in the Army and guess what, they aren't fighting for freedom, or the politics of your government or ours. They fight because they signed up to a job and they do what they are told to do and if that means going to Afghanistan they go, and when they are there they fight for their mates not UK or US foreign policy or even Queen or country.

Infact a couple of chaps I know are so pissed off with the whole thing that there are getting out and as soon as they can even if it means getting out into a recession.

So I'm sorry Jeff me old mucka your mum flag apple pie and the evil muslim enemy stuff doesn't wash with me. I'm more in sympathy with a chap like pops on this issue. One who doesn't just follow the star spangled herd.

If you are a military man and your attitude is indicative of the way US military personel feel about their allies, I'd recommend to our gov and men that we pull out and leave you to the whole rotten mess you're govt's created. Why waste even more British lives supporting people who have an attitude like that? Sadly we lost three more of those chaps the other day! :(

Oh sorry of course I should end this with the statement "you are wrong"

Thing is you're not wrong you're just expressing a point of view. Doesn't make you wrong just that its a point of view that I and many others don't think is entirely balanced but its your right to have it. That's Freedom. Shouting down loudly those who don't share your view is kind of opressive.

Oh and by the way they wouldn't have me in the army even if I offered. I'm too old and unfit to enlist! more likely to get a place in Dads army these days, though we don't need a home guard as there's no body actualy threatening to invade the UK right now. So I guess my contribution is neither wanted or needed by the armed forces.

This isn't WW2 all over again its a war that our Govts stupidly created for themselves. Its neither honorable nor glorious. The only honorable thing about it is the chaps over there fighting dutifully for each other without complaint for a cause very few that I have the pleasure to know, believe in. But they still do their best. Behave extremely proffessionaly and show great courage and bravery and integrity. and for that I applaud them even if I disagree about the reason they were sent there.

The real sadness is that we are not more free because of their efforts, our Govts are actually making us less free using anti terror measures to curtail many of the freedoms we once held dear. One of those is the freedom to protest. Witness what was happening at the G20. Some of the Metropolitan and City police tactics looked more like those of the repressive regimes we used to criticize or these days, overthrow.

Now then when we've stopped arguing are you going to have that drink with me yet? Or are you still on the wagon and praying to god and trusting in smart weapons or whatever.;):D
 

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The Iraq war in a nutshell

Naturally, the common people don't want war. But,they can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. Tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and endangering the country. It works in every country.

Who knows who the author was?-------------James.
 

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The Best of the Best

Actually Nick, your right about one thing. I am retired soldier and belong to one of the most elite Special Forces in all four branches of the US Military, I'm a PJ (Para Rescue). Our Motto "That Others may Live" is not just a sign of our willingness to put ourselves in harms way but also that we posess the special skills of saving lives. Not just our own soldiers but those of our allies.

We are a very elite unit with 186 strong. I can't begin to tell you how skilled and the specialized our training is and what we have had to endure. I just don't think you could comprehend. We are expert rescue swimmers, Para Jump Masters, linguists, experts in all types of firearms, expert in armed and unarmed Combat tactics, , expert Snipers and trained PA's capable of repairing field injuries and stabilizing soldier for transport. We are trained in covert operations as well as combat operations and as explosive experts. We are expert scrub divers but are main mission is to go into Combat situation conduct recon evade detection, extract wounded and RTB. I've personally made over 2800 jumps of which 450 were halo (25,000 ft +), served in four separate conflicts and many more covert actions. I've been to places that you would never imagine and would never want to go. I spent my entire career of 22 years in this service and turned down a promotion to stay on the ropes. So to say I'm speaking from a position of experience would be an understatement.

What kills me about you Nick is, you've never once humbled yourself enough to admit that someone else has a great deal more knowledge then you do about this. You've insulted my combat brethren with your benine, arrogant, unfactual claims of which you have no understanding. What you call arrogance is a driven spirit which has no fear of death and is willing to put it all up on the line for what he believes in, something your not willing to do, even when the opportunity presents itself. Nick we've got 60 year olds serving in the military now, are as tough and rough as they come and you say your to old. What, your early 40's maybe. Nice dodge, but it doesn't play out or wash with me. You couldn't hold a candle to them. So don't try to come across as an intellectual in military strategy, tactics or viewpoints, especially with me. You don't have the stones for it and never will.

Besides this Nick, you or Pops still haven't answered the ultimate question. Are you willing to put it all on the line for what you believe? Don't worry Nick, I'll let you off the hook as you've already answered that question which is unequivocally "No"! That doesn't make you a bad person or someone I wouldn't like to know. Just someone with a liberal ideology I couldn't count on in the clinch.

Your two mates aren't soldiers, they were just looking for a job that looked interesting. I hear this all the time. When it gets tough, they find excuses to run away and hide. My mates don't ever run, and we never leave a fellow soldier behind, inadvertently!

In conclusion, you opened your big mouth and spouted about how much more thrifty and efficient the British Army in the region was and you got your foot stepped on, didn't like it, won't except it and still doesn't wish to comprehend. Anytime you'd like to butt heads regarding anything military, or political military strategy, just stick you noodle out and I'll be happy to straighten it out. Go back and reread the discussion and ponder it's conclusion.

Now I'm done with the discussion! I will always place God above all other things. I still don't drink and haven't since I was 18 of free choice but I'll have a coke and a smile with you!:D


Cheers

Jeff:motorbike2:
 

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Jeff
The Truth is usualy found between two opposing view points. Therefore there's probably a bit of truth in your view and in mine and somewhere in the middle is the whole truth. I'm open minded enough to realise that as I'm sure you are too. No body has a monoply on the facts even if they claim they do.

You're right I pushed a bit and made a couple of deliberately controversial statements. Called being the Devils advocate don't ya know. Just for the record I don't claim they are or were meant to be statements of fact just a stick to poke up the nest and see what comes out. You're the only hornet in there it seems. I kind of like you for that though. At least you bothered to chip in. And Pops of course.

Now truly your a brave chap. Truly I doubt I could do the things you do or have done. And Yep that's admirable and I respect you for it.

Accusing anyone who hasn't served in the armed forces of cowardice is a bit strong though. I may be wrong, I sometimes am, but I'd bet that you're views are maybe coloured by all that special forces training. So you see just as your life experience has formed your views, so maybe might mine, and others of us that disagree with what our political masters (though they should be servents) are doing.

Oh and for the record yes I am in my early 40s and No the British Army does not recruit people my age. The maximum age to join the Armed Forces as a private soldier it is offically 32 but if you have past service or are a specialist such as a doctor or nurse or even a pilot you can join at your previous rank up to the age of 43.

So Please don't accuse me of cowardice because I'm too old to Join up or don't have the relevant experience. And Don't accuse me of being a coward because I chose not to become a soldier when I was younger. Clearly you don't really think all of us who don't choose the Armed forces as a career are cowards.

Oh and I'm pretty sure that whatever your political views if we were in fox hole together You might be suprised that you could count on a lilly livered liberal. None of this means a thing when people are trying to kill you. You probably wouldn't want my unfit incompetent scrawny 40 year old frame in the hole anyhow as even if you could count on me I'm not sure I'd be any use. :D

And You'd be surprised at how well read I am on millitary history and strategy. Come take a look at my book shelf some time. Nope I haven't lived it quite true but I'm not yer usual average ignorant joe when it comes to military matters and am far more understanding of the stuff you talk about than you might imagine.

Anyhow lighten up a bit huh? You don't know all the answers and neither do I but bottom line is that the freedom you say you're fighting so hard to protect means the freedom to have a different view. If not then that freedom don't exist my friend and you become an oppressor.

You know one of the things I like about this place on the net is that a lilly livered liberal nay socialist, like me and an ex military man like you can have a good old fashioned argument. In the real world you'd find me much more interested in what you have to say and much more ready to listen than it sometimes seems in here. I'll stand you that coke but don't mind if I sup my ale whilst I listen. But don't be suprised if I have the balls to voice my views either.

My Views on the whole war thing remain though and I still reckon it doesn't cost big bucks to be effective as a fighting force. History proves me on that one. Its much cheaper to buy soldiers proper equipment and to train them more effectively than to build atomic dinosaurs and I'd bet there might be a few military men who'd agree with me on that one.:p;):D
 

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Fair enough and I agree. I express my views based upon factual experiences and knowledge. I fight just as hard with an argument as I would in battle. No, I don't believe for one minute that everyone is a coward but they aren't soldiers. There are all types of courage that's demonstrated everyday. From a child with cancer who refuses to give up. To a cripple who must live with their affliction everyday. We all have a threshold for fear, you just don't know until you are put to the test. I've watched so call strong men cower in fear of their life when it came time for the test. I've also seen many men bravely face an enemy even unto death. Such a waste war is but it's a necessary evil. I think often of those who have been lost but I always seem to remember how they lived in the face of their demise. They are honorable and deserve our support even to our own death.

Nick, I don't ask for your respect or admiration just a common ground. You forget, I believe in those inalienable rights and freedoms so that others may enjoy the fruits of their labor. I will always fight for them and for those that are unable. I will stand till I can no longer and hope that in my stand that someone will take up the yoke for future generations. Bravery is fleeting and courage expedient. What sustains us is our stead fast belief and vigilance in Liberty.

I wish I could see the day when men could coexist for nothing but their peace and development. I wish war would disappear forever. But until that time I will stand my watch and pray to God for that peace. One of these days we maybe worthy of it.

Drink up my friend till our next engagement!;):D

Cheers
Jeff:motorbike2:
 

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Jeff,

You are to be commended on your service to your country. I have always supported our military and hold them in the highest regard for putting their lives on the line to protect our country. Yes I know that it is their duty to serve without question and I respect that as well. These are not at debate with me and I agree 100% with your view of our armed services. I guess that is one of the reasons it bothers me so much when they are used carelessly.

Would I put it on the line for what I believe in? Yes I believe I would have and still would if needed. The week of my 18th birthday I registered for the draft and would have proudly have answered the call if it had come. I am not sure what use I could be in defense of the country now but I would still step up to do what I could. I have a 15 year old son and when discussing future career oportunities I put the military in the mix as a good and honorable option. If he chooses that direction I will stand behind him 100%. The fact that I did not serve does not mean that I have any disrespect for those that have or do.

I think agree on most of these things and can agree to disagree on the others.

Pops
 
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