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Well it might get ugly interesting articles over on rideapart.com

K
Check the "Norton trouble" thread over at accessnorton. There are quite a few people who have personal experience and quite a few links concerning this. And it is ugly.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Pieman (Triumph Twin Power) is in Bournemouth!
That is actually quite reassuring to know, I am a bit of a technophobe, not really because I can't understand it. For me it's always been down to cost I would rather try and sort something out for pennies as apposed to throwing money at a problem, saying that though my wife changes her car every couple of years for new one, and although she does have breakdown cover she has never had to use it, touch wood, (not literally) and cars have got massively 'technical' in recent years with all the electronics and the like. She's only got a Fiesta but even that's got rain sensing wipers, a reversing camera and loads of other gizmo's, it's right up her street though.
So what you are saying is that it's as basic as transferring a computer file to the bikes ECU, as if you would transfer a computer file from one PC to another, and these files are quite easily obtainable. Is there a USB port somewhere on the bike to plug into? I really am out of touch with this sort of thing :rolleyes:
 

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Indeed if this system were to be able to prevent 'tank slappers' then it would be a good thing but there are already 'fixes' out there for this issue though. For BMW to say that a rider wouldn't need to wear a helmet is a mad statement surely, I was taken off by a van last year o_O,he pulled out in front of me, so I can't see how a self balancing bike could have prevented that from happening.
I don't know enough about this future tech to be able to say what accidents could be prevented, but this stuff is out right now and can't be unlearned. It will surely make its way into mainstream sooner or later. There are surely situations where this tech can save lives though, so personally I'm all for it, as long as it doesn't encroach on my riding experience. Here'sa video about both Honda and BMW systems. The Honda system is not a new bike, but a front end that can be retro fitted to any model, whereas the BMW system goes full-on Tesla. BTW, I just love the way that the Honda looks both ways before proceeding through the door. :LOL:

 

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Discussion Starter #44
I just love the way that the Honda looks both ways before proceeding through the door.
That is rather 'unique' almost scary. Interesting though that the Honda system can be retro fitted. It's all becoming a bit like driver less cars, but with a bike you'll no longer be a rider merely just a pillion. Not sure if I could trust that.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Well it might get ugly interesting articles over on rideapart.com

K
It seems a sad fact of life that if you want to do well in business then you have to be a bit corrupt in some way, but perhaps that's how to get ahead in the business world. On this occasion though that nice chap Stuart Garner has fallen flat on his face, which I think is a good thing. Hopefully it will happen to a few others!
 

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She's only got a Fiesta but even that's got rain sensing wipers, a reversing camera and loads of other gizmo's, it's right up her street though.
I drive a Fiesta diesel too, and that has all the same except the camera. Must say that I find the powerfold mirrors and voice commands most useful. The wipers and headlamps are just left on auto.

So what you are saying is that it's as basic as transferring a computer file to the bikes ECU, as if you would transfer a computer file from one PC to another, and these files are quite easily obtainable.
Yes, on all counts. But first off you would need to learn how to use TuneECU. No biggy, its just like any other Windows program. Everything is done in that program.

Is there a USB port somewhere on the bike to plug into? I really am out of touch with this sort of thing :rolleyes:
You can get the cable from Triumph Twin Power. One end has a USB plug, to go into the computer (you would need an adapter for a tablet since the USB port is smaller), the other end is quite large because it contains a chipset. That end plugs into the bike's diagnostic connector (OBDII) under the seat. If memory serves, mine came from Lonelec and cost about £15.
 

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Discussion Starter #47 (Edited)
I drive a Fiesta diesel too, and that has all the same except the camera. Must say that I find the powerfold mirrors and voice commands most useful. The wipers and headlamps are just left on auto.



Yes, on all counts. But first off you would need to learn how to use TuneECU. No biggy, its just like any other Windows program. Everything is done in that program.



You can get the cable from Triumph Twin Power. One end has a USB plug, to go into the computer (you would need an adapter for a tablet since the USB port is smaller), the other end is quite large because it contains a chipset. That end plugs into the bike's diagnostic connector (OBDII) under the seat. If memory serves, mine came from Lonelec and cost about £15.
At the time I bought my carbed America I just about had enough money to get an early EFI bike, after reading some threads on forums here and there I discovered that the earlier EFI's could be a bit 'troublesome' on the electrics side which steered me towards an earlier carb bike. I'm not sure what the later Triumph EFI's are like I couldn't quite stretch to one.
I know the OBD connector is to plug into the ECU, I've never touched one in my life though, I just look at them sometimes wondering what magical things they are capable of doing. Can you also get diagnostic software for a PC, or do you need a specific piece of equipment for this?

I'll just add, I wasn't sure whether bikes had a separate USB port as well as an OBD connector.
 

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There is the issue of the bike outliving the ECU. I had to replace my ECU on the '98T595 with a used unit of course. The electronics can last a long time, but unlike the vast amount of used ECU for cars, there is a limited supply for old bikes. I only hope that my replacement old ECU outlasts me.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
There is the issue of the bike outliving the ECU. I had to replace my ECU on the '98T595 with a used unit of course. The electronics can last a long time, but unlike the vast amount of used ECU for cars, there is a limited supply for old bikes. I only hope that my replacement old ECU outlasts me.
This is true, I tend to be a bit make do and mend and like you say a used ECU for a car can be easily found for cheap money where as a bike ECU can be harder to come by. I assume though if you don't mind the cost you can still get a new ECU from a dealer if need be, or do manufacturers make them obsolete after a certain amount of time?
 

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"The 122-year-old brand – famed for roles in the Che Guevara memoir The Motorcycle Diaries and the James Bond film Spectre – had fallen victim to an assortment of overwhelming forces ranging from Brexit, a punchy HMRC pursuing the firm for £300,000 in unpaid taxes, and tough international competition that made it impossible for Norton’s traditional bespoke approach to succeed."

"Brexit" "Che Guevara"

The Guardian, eh! What are they like? :)

At least they didn't blame Norton for the "climate emergency" and "global heating", I suppose.
 

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At the time I bought my carbed America I just about had enough money to get an early EFI bike, after reading some threads on forums here and there I discovered that the earlier EFI's could be a bit 'troublesome' on the electrics side which steered me towards an earlier carb bike. I'm not sure what the later Triumph EFI's are like I couldn't quite stretch to one.
There has always been some problems with electricals, but that's been mainly down to the bean counters at Triumph. For example the wiring harness on later EFI twins (those with the LCD speedo) has 5 crimped connections inside that tend to break or corrode. These are in totally the wrong place, just as the harness passes the steering head, so movement in the steering causes metal fatigue in the wires. Add to this that the harnesses are made in the Far East by people working for little more than a bowl of rice a day. But at least they are cheap for Triumph. They could solve all these problems by bringing certain manufacturing stuff back in-house, but work like that is always outsourced. JCB are just the same, lots of parts are bought in from other companies - since I've been there, we have had at least one death by crushing on the assembly line, due to the hydraulic control valves bought in from outside sources, and really bad hand injuries caused by cheap hydraulic hoses and adapters that have let go when under pressure - 43,000 psi. At those pressures a pinhole sized jet of hydraulic fluid cuts like a knife.


Though what I think you are talking about is the bad starting and rough running with the first EFI models. This was found to be due to the air gap of the crank position sensor (pickup coil), which originally was 1.0 mm. A couple of years later Triumph instructed their dealers to reduce the gap to 0.8 mm and the problem went away. From all my time on these forums I don't think that any component has been as troublesome as the pick up coil, but also the ignition switches must come a close second. But for all of its faults the Bonnie is the best bike in the world IMO.

I know the OBD connector is to plug into the ECU, I've never touched one in my life though, I just look at them sometimes wondering what magical things they are capable of doing. Can you also get diagnostic software for a PC, or do you need a specific piece of equipment for this?
TuneECU is the diagnostic software, it allows you to do many things that otherwise only a shop/dealer could do. Its like a car, if the engine develops a fault, the fault code (a.k.a DTC) gets stored in the ECU memory and the engine light comes on. You then use either an OBDII scanner (these cost about £7 for a decent one) or TuneECU to read the code which will tell you what the problem is. The difference is, that TuneECU can delete these codes when you've fixed the problem and extinguish the engine light whereas the scanner can't. It also has a full diagnostic screen that tells you throttle body balance, sensor voltages, intake pressure (as in vacuum gauge) and many more things. You can also use it to adjust the rev limiter or set the idle speed if you don't have a tach.

I'll just add, I wasn't sure whether bikes had a separate USB port as well as an OBD connector.
Some bikes do, and there's a connector on our bikes to fit one, but these are for phone charging or GPS. They are nothing to do with diagnostics.
 

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This is true, I tend to be a bit make do and mend and like you say a used ECU for a car can be easily found for cheap money where as a bike ECU can be harder to come by. I assume though if you don't mind the cost you can still get a new ECU from a dealer if need be, or do manufacturers make them obsolete after a certain amount of time?
I cannot buy a new ECU for my '98 Daytona and I would guess for any older FI model. The factory only has to make parts available I believe for maybe 7 years after the model line has ceased production. Even the manufacturer of the ECU, Sagem would not be able to supply a new ECU. Assuming Sagem is still around. I believe they have merged to become Safran and only deal with aeronautics and security. Sagem made ECU for Peugeot I believe as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #53 (Edited)
I cannot buy a new ECU for my '98 Daytona and I would guess for any older FI model. The factory only has to make parts available I believe for maybe 7 years after the model line has ceased production. Even the manufacturer of the ECU, Sagem would not be able to supply a new ECU. Assuming Sagem is still around. I believe they have merged to become Safran and only deal with aeronautics and security. Sagem made ECU for Peugeot I believe as well.
So would this not make your Daytona unusable in the event of not being able to get hold of one? I'm not trying to be thick but I've never owned a bike with an ECU. CDI's were about as modern as I ever got, and I'm not to sure on the reliability of them either, or though I must say I've never had one let down.
 

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Yes, unless I could find another manufacturer that could duplicate the blueprint of my current ECU. That would probably be rather expensive or at all possible. Never looked into it. CDI are less of an issue. I did have one go south after nine years on a Suzuki. Anything electronic can "wear" out. A defective regulator that causes a battery overcharge can take out a CDI as well. Not sure about ECU. There is nothing like the simplicity of a fully mechanical device. I'm glad my Daytona only has FI and nothing else. Not sure that I could convert to carbs with the design of the gas tank.
 

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So would this not make your Daytona unusable in the event of not being able to get hold of one? I'm not trying to be thick but I've never owned a bike with an ECU. CDI's were about as modern as I ever got, and I'm not to sure on the reliability of them either, or though I must say I've never had one let down.
Well there aftermarket ECUs available for racing and other than OEM engines that can be programmed for what ever your application. How much money do you have?

Or you could get a more modern unit and make it work. This might be an option where emissions testing is nonexistent.

Of course there is always the fallback option of carbs. A sprint with three Mikuni flat slides would be interesting.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
Yes, unless I could find another manufacturer that could duplicate the blueprint of my current ECU. That would probably be rather expensive or at all possible. Never looked into it. CDI are less of an issue. I did have one go south after nine years on a Suzuki. Anything electronic can "wear" out. A defective regulator that causes a battery overcharge can take out a CDI as well. Not sure about ECU. There is nothing like the simplicity of a fully mechanical device. I'm glad my Daytona only has FI and nothing else. Not sure that I could convert to carbs with the design of the gas tank.
It's a shame really, going on what you have said most bikes with ECU's will eventually end up in a breakers yard unless you can get one remapped to suit as Gabriel says, but unless you are a true enthusiast I don't think most riders would bother. I'm not sure what it's like in the US but that's whats happened to the car market over here, they have become disposable which makes me think it is possibly an inbuilt thing just to get people to buy new vehicles, just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
Well there aftermarket ECUs available for racing and other than OEM engines that can be programmed for what ever your application. How much money do you have?

Or you could get a more modern unit and make it work. This might be an option where emissions testing is nonexistent.

Of course there is always the fallback option of carbs. A sprint with three Mikuni flat slides would be interesting.
Well all this talk makes me want to stick to the old ways of CDI's and the like. I think though inevitably I'll will end up buying a bike with an ECU.
 

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Self balancing, no thanks. Just like how I'm dreading the eventual shift assist and LCD display.
Self balancing will cause more riders to ride closer to the limit with less skill
 

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It's a shame really, going on what you have said most bikes with ECU's will eventually end up in a breakers yard unless you can get one remapped to suit as Gabriel says, but unless you are a true enthusiast I don't think most riders would bother. I'm not sure what it's like in the US but that's whats happened to the car market over here, they have become disposable which makes me think it is possibly an inbuilt thing just to get people to buy new vehicles, just a thought.
Well in time there may be a market for this sort of repair. There already is a small cottage industry of people who repair the “video game” displays of cars built in the 80-90s.
 

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Discussion Starter #60 (Edited)
Self balancing, no thanks. Just like how I'm dreading the eventual shift assist and LCD display.
Self balancing will cause more riders to ride closer to the limit with less skill
Isn't shift assist pretty much the same as what Honda were fitting to their cub 50's years ago, basically a semi auto gearbox in other words, a lot of buses use them don't you know.
I'm with you I think a lot of this tech stuff will dumb down riders. Perhaps it's the way forward, as mentioned in another thread humans are basically still apes. Maybe in the future everything will be bright and rosie and everyone will be travelling around as passengers using self driving bikes and cars. I can't see it though not for a long time yet.
 
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