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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone out there have facts and figures (or even a theory?) as to whether the Bobber or Speedmaster has a deeper lean angle than the other? I'm curious, because as a new Speedmaster owner who has come from years of riding mostly standard bikes, I'm not 100% sure my lower back is loving the whole forward control thing. But the question I have is this: if I were to swap in the Bobber mid-controls, will I be losing even more of what little lean angle I'm already getting? Or do the Bobber controls give even more clearance? Any thoughts as to how one might go about finding that out? Thanks!!
 

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Does anyone out there have facts and figures (or even a theory?) as to whether the Bobber or Speedmaster has a deeper lean angle than the other? I'm curious, because as a new Speedmaster owner who has come from years of riding mostly standard bikes, I'm not 100% sure my lower back is loving the whole forward control thing. But the question I have is this: if I were to swap in the Bobber mid-controls, will I be losing even more of what little lean angle I'm already getting? Or do the Bobber controls give even more clearance? Any thoughts as to how one might go about finding that out? Thanks!!
You won't lose the actual angle, but the pegs may scrape sooner. :wink2:
I think the reason for that is the front end dives as you slow to enter a turn. Since forwards are closer to the front, they will lower a smidge too.
I don't know if your pegs have curb feelers, but I typically take them off my bikes. The skinny ones dig in the asphalt and upset the bike in the corners. Flat bottomed pegs/boards just make noise and throw sparks. Kinda fun once you're used to it.
The thing about forward pegs is your boot heel will naturally sit on it lower than the peg. If you don't raise it up going into a turn, it'll remind you before you get near the peg.
 

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It's a compromise, for the look and riding position you get over the T120 or Thruxton. Ride a demo to see if you can live with it.
 

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I think the lean angles are the same. The forward foot controls of the Speedmaster would mean that there would be less control in turns than on the Bobber. However the Suspension is better on the Speedmaster so this might compensate a bit.
 

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If you have a look at the “Captain Rambunctious” video on YouTube where they ride the Bobber Black , The Speedmaster and the Tiger 800 , you will find them talking about this issue going through roundabouts. The comments are mixed in with the Captain’s usual exuberance and larking about, so you will need to listen pretty closely. Their conclusion is that the mid mounted Bobber Black has “more” clearance than the forward mounted Speedmaster. It’s an interesting bit of chat that pops up a couple of times in the video. At least it’s real world on the same road at the same time. The chap who was troubled by the Speedmaster pegs scraping certainly seemed happier on the Bobber Black in that department. The Captain didnt seem to care either way since he just shifted his weight around more with the forward peg set up. The comparison is pretty relevant since the Speedmaster seems to be basically the Bobber Black with two up suspension and a tail. Whether that difference holds up with a passenger and load I have no idea. Having looked at the two bikes on their side stands, the forward mounted pegs look lower on Speedmaster than the Bobber Black. The pegs also seem to be mounted at a wider part of the bike on Speedmaster than where they are mounted on the Bobber Black. So “more” clearance seems to make sense.

It would be nice if there was a lean angle standard comparison for Bikes hey? Something along the lines of a standard radius and speed flat turn with a standard rider weight sitting centre seat ?
 

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It would be nice if there was a lean angle standard comparison for Bikes hey? Something along the lines of a standard radius and speed flat turn with a standard rider weight sitting centre seat ?
Even those aren't going to mean much. A heavy guy with the preload wound out is going to get a lot less clearance than a light guy with it dialed in. And once you've scraped a peg a few times, it won't bother you and the bike will go around the corners just fine. They fold right up. Personally, I take the curb feelers off my footpegs for extra clearance and because the skinny ones dig in and can upset the chassis.
The real issue is where hard parts deck as they can lift the rear tire and things will get ugly if you don't recognize and correct for that quick. That's usually a pretty good lean after you feel the footpegs scape. So the scraping can actually be a very handy measure of feedback to tell you when you need to back off and widen your line up some.
I have highway pegs on my Versys. They are probably an inch higher (at least) than my mid mount control pegs. I attached a pic. In it, they are folded up as I was dicking around on the Gap. Normally, I don't fold them up. And even them being that much higher, they still scrape before the mid mounts. Telescopic forks dive as you deceleratate into corners. Without the feelers, my mid control pegs on that bike have very little wear from scraping. The highway pegs OTOH are sanded flat.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
If you have a look at the “Captain Rambunctious” video on YouTube where they ride the Bobber Black , The Speedmaster and the Tiger 800 , you will find them talking about this issue going through roundabouts.
Super helpful...thanks! I will try to find that video. In addition to the lean angle question, I'm beginning to notice a little lower back discomfort while riding my Speedie that I haven't had to deal with since my last forward-controls bike, which I sold perhaps 10 years ago. Since then, my feet have always been right below my hips (FJR, '07 T100, CB1100). I might have to consider moving my controls aft for more than one benefit.
 

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I had another look at my Triumph dealer at the Bobber Black and Speedmaster. While leaning on their side stands the lower side peg is roughly 1cm lower (measured from floor to tip of the feeler) and 2cm wider. (measured from connecting rod to end of peg) on the forward mounted Speedmaster versus the mid mounted Bobber Black, so that seems to fit the theory that you get more lean angle on the Speedmaster by mid mounting the pegs.

Having said that I agree with Saddlebags comments on all this. I’m no engineer haha ! Re Saddlebags comments I noticed for instance that the forward mounted peg has a much longer feeler that will quickly grind down, though the extra width will remain a constant. I asked Captain Rambunctious about this on his site and he was the one who noticed the width point.

I had a test ride on the Bobber Black a few weeks back to try to get a feel for the available lean angle on a mid mounted Speedmaster and found it pretty good (though obviously less than my Thruxton 1200S ). I also enjoyed that the gear lever seemed to have a shorter movement required than on my Thruxton. I imagine that is a function of the arrangement being closer to the gear box than on the more rear mounted Thruxton because I think the transmissions are the same (?).

I’m not sure how well the Beach Bars on the Speedmaster will work with the mid mounted pegs. I have a Speedmaster with the mid mount pegs on order so will let you know when I get it. I also wonder if your back issue with the forward mounted pegs is also linked to the beach bars and what that does to how upright your spine ends up. I quite like the riding position on the Bobber Black with the flat bar / mid mount peg combination. The same flat bar is an option on the Speedmaster so that will be next for me if the Beach Bars make things a bit cramped with the mid mount pegs.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks Taffty. Replies like this are why I keep coming back to these forums. Super helpful. Please do let us know how the mid controls feel with the beach bars...I'm thinking it would be just about perfect for me.
 

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No probs kvdv!

Well my Speedmaster with the mid foot controls has arrived! I could detect no difference between my Bobber Black test ride and riding my mid mounted Speedmaster with (various 2 up accessories fitted) in terms of available lean angle. In short - it’s pretty good and makes me wonder why on earth Triumph didn’t provide some mid mounted Speedmasters for all the launch rides. Pretty much every “first ride” video out there from the journos points to available lean angle as the Speedmaster’s “Achilles heel” while it’s rarely mentioned in the Bobber Black reviews.

So for anyone wanting to check out the lean angle for a Speedmaster with mid foot controls, I can confirm that taking a Bobber Black for a test ride is a good way to do it!


I’m still making up my mind about the Beach Bars and the hand position (my hands want to be straighter ) but the overall riding position I am finding very comfortable and not cramped due to the Beach Bars. This is good because unlike the Bobber Black, you cant adjust the seat height on the Speedmaster. I’m 6’1 btw.

Once I get my box of bits from the dealer containing the forward mount control set, it should be possible to actually work out the precise available lean angle difference between the two sets of controls (via a big sheet of Masonite and a bit of geometry)!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Good stuff, Tafty -
Based on everything I've been able to find out, your comments, and the fact that the forward-controls thing is definitely hurting my low back, I placed an order for the mid-controls kit today. I have a bike trip coming up in just under two weeks, Seattle to Glacier Nat'l Park and back. If everything gets to me in time, I plan to have the mid-controls and a Dart Classic flyscreen in place before leaving. Those small tweaks should have me smiling all the way! I'll report back on that, and if I can notice a difference in how early the pegs scrape. - KvdV
 
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Good stuff, Tafty -
Based on everything I've been able to find out, your comments, and the fact that the forward-controls thing is definitely hurting my low back, I placed an order for the mid-controls kit today. I have a bike trip coming up in just under two weeks, Seattle to Glacier Nat'l Park and back. If everything gets to me in time, I plan to have the mid-controls and a Dart Classic flyscreen in place before leaving. Those small tweaks should have me smiling all the way! I'll report back on that, and if I can notice a difference in how early the pegs scrape. - KvdV
I had no idea there was such a thing. It should be standard and the foot forward be the option. Trip sound great.
 

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I had no idea there was such a thing. It should be standard and the foot forward be the option. Trip sound great.
I believe the mid mount control kit for the Speedmaster is part number A9770116. I have posted a photo of my Speedmaster with the mid mounted controls in a gallery attached to my Username. (Could not work out how to upload the photo to this thread even though I reduced the file size as required!)

I gather that for the Bobber Black there is a kit that allows you to go from mid mounted controls to forward mounted as well.
 

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Hope it all works out! That trip sounds great ! I would be interested to see the fly screen once it gets fitted too.
 

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You won't lose the actual angle, but the pegs may scrape sooner. :wink2:
I think the reason for that is the front end dives as you slow to enter a turn. Since forwards are closer to the front, they will lower a smidge too.
I'm sure you are absolutely right and the front suspension dive is a key reason for the difference in available lean angle between the two set ups, particularly for people who use trail braking deep in to the turn in and as a result keep the front forks compressed a bit longer.
 

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I'm sure you are absolutely right and the front suspension dive is a key reason for the difference in available lean angle between the two set ups, particularly for people who use trail braking deep in to the turn in and as a result keep the front forks compressed a bit longer.
Even if you do it with rear brake or engine braking. When the back tire decelerates, the front of the bike wants to spin around it counter clockwise, compressing the forks. Just the opposite effect than if you accelerate which makes the front end want to spin around the rear tire clockwise and wheelie you down the road.
 

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Even if you do it with rear brake or engine braking. When the back tire decelerates, the front of the bike wants to spin around it counter clockwise, compressing the forks. Just the opposite effect than if you accelerate which makes the front end want to spin around the rear tire clockwise and wheelie you down the road.
Whenever you load the front end you unload the back end and VV. The trick is to balance it out with gears, throttle and braking. One amazing this BMW worked out is the single shock in from in a yoke and one in rear on the arm. it has no dive in most any situ.
 

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Whenever you load the front end you unload the back end and VV. The trick is to balance it out with gears, throttle and braking. One amazing this BMW worked out is the single shock in from in a yoke and one in rear on the arm. it has no dive in most any situ.
It's because conventional forks have rake. Thus the force gets a component of force in the vertical as well as horizontal direction when the front brakes are applied. BMW's front end keeps front braking force in the horizontal direction directly thru the frame. Mostly up and down forces move the BMW Telelever's spring i.e. bumps and dips. Stomping on the rear brake will still cause dive in the front end though, since that causes the front to rotate around the rear, it will apply a downward force on the Telelever and compress its spring.
The design of the BMW's rear suspension is to mitigate shaft jacking.
 

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Hi All. Thank you for the explanation about clockwise and anti-clockwise forces and what that means for the front suspension compression. Makes a lot more sense to me now!

I have attached 3 photos that show you the difference between the forward mounted and mid mounted controls on the Speedmaster.

I jremounted the forward pegs temporarily to enable a visual comparison. You can see how much wider the forward pegs are in the first two photos.

I think the third photo is probably the most revealing. I traced a chalk line on the ground from the outer edge of the front tyre to the outer edge of the back tyre. From there I got my phone as close as I could to ground level at the front tyre. Then I took a metal rod and held it against the bottom of the forward peg feeler with the other end against the chalk line on the ground.

I think this gives a pretty reasonable reflection of the plane of available lean angle for the forward peg. As you can see in the photo I had to lift the forward peg quite a long way before the bottom of mid mount peg appeared in the same plane.

Basically i think the photo proves you get quite a lot more lean angle with the mid mount controls.

I couldn’t work out how to also add in the effect of front suspension compression, as I was struggling to get the shot as it was. I am sure the difference would have been even more pronounced !

Cheers all !
 

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