Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner
  • Hey everyone! Enter your ride HERE to be a part of this month's Bike of the Month Challenge!

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
224 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm posting this because I am running out of options and not sure what to try next. I recently installed a complete Lucas bolt-on light kit and have been blowing the 10 AMP fuse in position 7 on my 08 Bonneville T100 since. So far I have checked all the cables in the rear assembly to make sure nothing was pinched or shorting out anywhere. I have done the same in the light bucket. I’ve checked all the connectors to make sure everything is plugged in firmly. I’ve also gone through 4 fuses, including a couple from a new batch I got from Wal-Mart.

Yesterday I was out for a long ride and decided to fill the tank before going home. Everything was working fine until I stopped to fill-up. When I took off again the fuse had blown. This really stinks because it means you lose your turn signal, brake light and horn :eek: I’ve been carrying some extra 10 AMP fuses with me just in case but didn’t bother to stop and change it this time because thankfully I was just a few blocks away from home. The same thing happened Friday night but luckily I was very close to home so I turned around and headed back.

I have a Kisan signalMinder with the full running light feature hooked up and tailBlazer. I’ve had this setup since I got the bike and never had a problem with it and the stock lights.

After thinking of what else to try last night I decided to check out the bulbs that came with the Lucas kit. When I opened the signals today I noticed that the bulbs are stamped 12V23W. When I checked the specifications section in the owner’s manual I noticed that it calls for 12V10W (and interestingly enough 12V21W for the Thruxton - I wonder why but that's a different topic). After seeing this I’ve replaced all the bulbs with the ones from the stock setup hoping this will make a difference considering the ones that come with the kit are more than twice as powerful.

I took the bike out for about an hour today and tried to turn the signals on and off as much as possible. I even kept the hazard and escort features that are available with the Signal Minder on for a while as I was cruising through some desolate back roads. So far so good and keeping my fingers crossed.

If the fuse blows again I’m not sure what to try next and I’m concerned about this happening while on the highway or at night. I’m hoping some of you electrical gurus out there can give me a few pointers on what else I should check in hopes of getting to the bottom of it and reducing the guessing work on my part.

Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,588 Posts
I am not familiar with that kit, so anything I say may have no application. One thing I have noticed is that the stock signal lights are isolated from the frame on most of Triumph bikes; therefore, both the hot and ground (earth) wires run to them. Because of this isolation, it doesn't matter which wire goes where, AND, on both my '03 Bonnie and '07 Tiger, I have found a couple of the signal lights with the hot wire going to the ground side and vice-versa. Remember, the colored wire goes to the hot side and the black wire goes to the ground side--regardless of which way it was wired when you received it.

If the Lucas kit does not isolate the signal lights from the frame grounding, then this may be one of your problems IF you have any of the signal light wires reversed.

Good Luck,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
i say with the other bulbs you were running a higher current.
Watts=VI
23w=12 x ?
I = 1.91 amps for the ones in the kit. The standard ones comes in at 0.83 amps.

So i'm taking a stab in the dark that the running lights means they are on full time so just by looking at that it will be running about 8amps with just them then you have the other loads on it so i say it was to much current then the fuse was rated for.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,629 Posts
Both responses are good yellow. May indeed be a polarity issue. You have a lot going on with your setup. A better description of what lights you are running would be helpful...single or dual filament?...plastic or metal bodied, where polarity matters as mentioned.

In any event you are hedging a bit too close to the wattage rating of your fuse at 10a. You can check what wattage you are pushing by measuring amps and each side of that fuse btw when you are running everything...with the new bulbs. You may even have a rectifier issue that is allowing too much current to flow through the bike but my guess is it is an interaction of all the aftermarket electronics that aren't getting along too well. Run turn modules are persnickety when it comes to bulb wattage. How is your flash rate? Fast or slow? Is the illumination uniform for each signal? Is there a discernible difference in intensity level between running light function and turn signal brightness when flashing?
George
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
224 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for all the replies fellows....

I am not familiar with that kit, so anything I say may have no application. One thing I have noticed is that the stock signal lights are isolated from the frame on most of Triumph bikes; therefore, both the hot and ground (earth) wires run to them. Because of this isolation, it doesn't matter which wire goes where, AND, on both my '03 Bonnie and '07 Tiger, I have found a couple of the signal lights with the hot wire going to the ground side and vice-versa. Remember, the colored wire goes to the hot side and the black wire goes to the ground side--regardless of which way it was wired when you received it.

If the Lucas kit does not isolate the signal lights from the frame grounding, then this may be one of your problems IF you have any of the signal light wires reversed.

Good Luck,
RedBird The rear brake light and signals are connected via a harness that plugs into the stock wiring. I'm not sure if they are grounded to one of the mounting bolts internally as I have not taken this apart yet. The front signals, on the other hand, are grounded to the frame. I was careful to mark everything off during the installation to make sure I wasn't crossing anything but I will double check to make sure I've connected them as you've suggested above.


i say with the other bulbs you were running a higher current.
Watts=VI
23w=12 x ?
I = 1.91 amps for the ones in the kit. The standard ones comes in at 0.83 amps.

So i'm taking a stab in the dark that the running lights means they are on full time so just by looking at that it will be running about 8amps with just them then you have the other loads on it so i say it was to much current then the fuse was rated for.
tub51, this was exactly what I thought when I saw the bulbs in the kit were rated at 23W and the spec in the Owner's manual calling for 10W. I'm hoping putting the stock bulbs back will address the issue but I'll have to wait and see what happens.

A better description of what lights you are running would be helpful...single or dual filament?...plastic or metal bodied, where polarity matters as mentioned.

In any event you are hedging a bit too close to the wattage rating of your fuse at 10a. You can check what wattage you are pushing by measuring amps and each side of that fuse btw when you are running everything...with the new bulbs. You may even have a rectifier issue that is allowing too much current to flow through the bike but my guess is it is an interaction of all the aftermarket electronics that aren't getting along too well. Run turn modules are persnickety when it comes to bulb wattage. How is your flash rate? Fast or slow? Is the illumination uniform for each signal? Is there a discernible difference in intensity level between running light function and turn signal brightness when flashing?
George
biker7 the lights/bulbs are dual filament just like the stock ones. With the Kisan signalMinder running lights hooked up they are on all the time at a low intensity and when I turn the signals on they go into full brightness mode while flashing. I'm assuming this is what dual filament means. The signal housings are plastic. The rear is one piece and has an OEM type plug which connects to the stock harness under the seat. The front comes with a cable that has a ring attached to it which fits around the threaded end where the nut is screwed to hold it to the headlight bracket and then connected to the ground cable in the light bucket as per the installation instructions.

The flash rate seems normal, about one flash per second. The illumination seems even on both sides, front and rear.

Finally, there is a definite difference in intensity level between running light function and turn signal brightness. The running lights are low intensity illumination while the signal mode appears to be at full power/brightness. Below are two pictures showing the lights in running light mode and the second one with the right turn flasher on.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,629 Posts
Yellow...dual filament means there are two filaments in each bulb...not what you have. You have single filament bulbs which is why you need your signalMinder for run turn functionality. Sounds like it is working perfectly. I believe it is hooked up properly because run turn modules and turn signal function is not forgiving if hooked up improperly. Sounds as though your signalMinder has a certain level of current draw. There are a couple of ways to look at this. If you downsize wattage, you will give up a level of illumination. What I would do is measure amperage draw across the fuse in question (back right location as you know) with the new bulbs and then plug in the old bulbs and measure the amperage with a multimeter. If the new bulbs draw noticably more current than that is your culprit. Next option? Run a 15a fuse in that spot with the new bulbs so you can have your cake and eat it too.
Hope that helps,
George
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
722 Posts
The fuse you are blowing is there for a reason and that is to protect the circuit IE; the wiring & related devices from damage in the event of an overload or a short.

In theory, the fuse blows before the wiring melts. I would think twice about using a higher amperage rated fuse on a circuit that is not designed to take the load. Make sure that the wiring and everything else can handle it.

You have more than doubled the wattage of your lamps and are simply packing too much load for the fuse/circuit.

You wouldn't slug the circuits on your house panel, would you? Because if you did and overloaded them, or developed a short somewhere inside your walls, you could have a fire.

I find it amazing that these folks sell these "upgrade" packages without warning about the consequences and/or related work that will have to be done.:confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,629 Posts
'08...while what you write in principle is correct...your thinking about "selling these packages" is...um...not. Slugging a fuse box and running one size up fuse in a motorcycle for lighting isn't even in the same hemisphere. The OP has a lot of interactions on his bike...very different than running 12/23W bulbs which are a mainstay on motorcycles throughout the world. The issue for yellow is the interaction between his run turn module and the lights he has chosen. It isn't close to an indictment against the component suppliers who can't possibly entertain all the interactions. Improving performance many times involves treading on the margin. OE designs don't do this because design intent usually involves an ample safety tolerance for design stack up. Yellow will likely be fine with lower wattage bulbs but if he removes his SignalMinder which he likely wouldn't, there would be no foul with running 12V/23W turn signals on these bikes. I have them on my new bonny right now. Simple math suggests a single 23W bulb @ 12V will draw just shy of 2 amps. Turn all running lights on at the same time and then store a pulse of current and deploy it aka turn signal will tread on a 10a fuses' margin...especially if the Signalminder draws some current off this circuit. Throw on the modulator on the bike and you get intermittent blow fuses. A 10W turn signal bulb on a motorbike is weak. Kind of like looking at a 10W bulb in your house. For being seen out on the road I prefer a 23W bulb. To improve lighting or really all aspects of design, generally safety margin is reduced. The key is within manageable guidelines...which also includes taxing headlight wiring when going to a fractionally higher wattage bulb to improve lighting.
George
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
224 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
George, I measure the amps difference (hopefully correctly) between the setup with the stock bulbs and the bulbs in the kit. I used an Ideal clamp style meter which I put around the red cable with green stripe coming out of the fuse location.

First row is stock bulbs and second the kit bulbs. Steady represents nothing applied like signal or brake, just running lights. The Signal On number is the fluctuation while the light is flashing.

Signal On -/- Steady -/- Brake Applied
.67-.90 -/- 1.41 -/- .52
1.56-2.00 -/- 3.31 -/- 1.24

I was able to get another ride in today for about an hour and no fuse problems so far (still on the stock bulbs which I put back after doing the above comparison). The bulbs from the kit are definitely brighter and I would like to be able to use them but not in favor of giving up my signalMinder as you correctly guessed above. Would an LED type bulb like this one work?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,629 Posts
Good sluething yellow. I like that you do your due dilligence...what stops many in their troubleshooting tracks. A suggestion is contact the fine folks that sell the LED's for 1156 incadescent replacement and ask them for a baseline comparison in lumens between an incadescent 23W 1156 and their LED surrogate. You picked the right one. Also..before you order...measure the height of your bulb and see if it is less than 46mm in length or so. Packaging can be issue behind the lense.
Other than that...LED's are popular upgrades but the reason for a lumen comparison is they aren't always brighter...so something to look into first. I have ordered from those guys and they are reputable...for LED cluster lights.
The thing you will ultimately have to ask yourself...if the stock bulbs continue to work...is if you are willing to upgrade your fuse. This will have to be your call at the end of the day. What is unclear is...since you seem to be running a good safety tolerance for current based upon your numbers is...why are you exceeding the threshold of current to blow a fuse? It maybe your Signalminder doesn't like the wattage of those bulbs. You could send an email to them and ask for their input. The other interaction of course is your modulator. You are asking that circuit to do a fair amount. It is still unclear why your fuse is blowing when you measure well underneath the threshold current for the fuse.
Cheers,
George
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
224 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
George, thanks so much for all your help, it is hugely appreciated. This has been a good learning experience for me. I'll keep at it and see where it leads. I did think about the upgrade on the fuse (which sounds like you have experience with) but I'm just concerned about frying something. I might try that as my last option. For now it looks like the stock bulbs are not tripping that threshold but I would sure like to have those brighter bulbs in there. Thanks again, Rod
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
722 Posts
'08...while what you write in principle is correct...your thinking about "selling these packages" is...um...not. Slugging a fuse box and running one size up fuse in a motorcycle for lighting isn't even in the same hemisphere. The OP has a lot of interactions on his bike...very different than running 12/23W bulbs which are a mainstay on motorcycles throughout the world. The issue for yellow is the interaction between his run turn module and the lights he has chosen. It isn't close to an indictment against the component suppliers who can't possibly entertain all the interactions. Improving performance many times involves treading on the margin. OE designs don't do this because design intent usually involves an ample safety tolerance for design stack up. Yellow will likely be fine with lower wattage bulbs but if he removes his SignalMinder which he likely wouldn't, there would be no foul with running 12V/23W turn signals on these bikes. I have them on my new bonny right now. Simple math suggests a single 23W bulb @ 12V will draw just shy of 2 amps. Turn all running lights on at the same time and then store a pulse of current and deploy it aka turn signal will tread on a 10a fuses' margin...especially if the Signalminder draws some current off this circuit. Throw on the modulator on the bike and you get intermittent blow fuses. A 10W turn signal bulb on a motorbike is weak. Kind of like looking at a 10W bulb in your house. For being seen out on the road I prefer a 23W bulb. To improve lighting or really all aspects of design, generally safety margin is reduced. The key is within manageable guidelines...which also includes taxing headlight wiring when going to a fractionally higher wattage bulb to improve lighting.
George
George, thanks for the lecture, but I already understand electric theory. Iv'e been in the field for 32 years. I'll have to disagree with you on the people who sell these kits. And also, with your sending the OP chasing his tail with long winded advice on dual filament bulbs, rectifiers, flashing sequence of the signalminder etc. etc.

When the real answer is simple; he OVERLOADED the circuit.

They (the vendors) should include a caveat for those people such as the OP who in my estimation, judging by his original post, did not have a clue as to why his 10A fuse was blowing after he added too much load to the circuit. *That additional upgrades may be reqiured.*

If you want to run all these extra bells & whistles that the system was not designed for in the first place, then you have to start from the ground up. You don't just stick a bigger fuse in there and hope for the best. If we ran our electric transmission & distribution system that way, you would have the reliability of India. Or some other third world country.

He was ok with the one added load to the system but, then he added more with the higher wattage bulbs.

My example of slugging a circuit and sticking a higher rated fuse in there was just for him to understand the possibility that that may not be a good idea. Sorry if I stepped on your toes.:) Actually, I'm not really, it was a bunch of BS what you said, AFAIAC.

By his last post, he seems to understand that. (sigh)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
224 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
08... without getting all grumpy on me like you did at George above and with another couple of swipes aimed my way :D below are the amperage readings I posted earlier which I got this morning when comparing the load on that circuit with the stock 10W bulbs and then with the 23W ones that came with the kit. (BTW you are correct I didn't have a clue they were 23W, I expected them to be the same as stock) Could you please enlighten me on what would be considered "overloaded" on a 10 AMP circuit? Would it be 3, 6, 9 AMPS?

Thanks in advance.

Signal On -/- Steady -/- Brake Applied
.67-.90 -/- 1.41 -/- .52
1.56-2.00 -/- 3.31 -/- 1.24
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
722 Posts
08... without getting all grumpy on me like you did at George above and with another couple of swipes aimed my way :D below are the amperage readings I posted earlier which I got this morning when comparing the load on that circuit with the stock 10W bulbs and then with the 23W ones that came with the kit. (BTW you are correct I didn't have a clue they were 23W, I expected them to be the same as stock) Could you please enlighten me on what would be considered "overloaded" on a 10 AMP circuit? Would it be 3, 6, 9 AMPS?

Thanks in advance.

Signal On -/- Steady -/- Brake Applied
.67-.90 -/- 1.41 -/- .52
1.56-2.00 -/- 3.31 -/- 1.24
Anything that blows the fuse under normal running conditions, meaning; no short circuit.

No swipes your way. If ya don't know, ya don't know. No disparaging going on here.

I just don't like to see bad or unqualified info being dispersed to an inquisitive mind....

I am not getting all "grumpy" here. What happens when you run the added wattage lamps? I don't care what your meter shows you as far as amps is concerned. Basically, there is a safety factor built into all fusing. What that threshold is, you have to find out for yourself.

It appears by your experience in this thing, that you have found it.

I'm just telling you that you cannot run more stuff than the circuit is designed for. That includes the wiring, and ALL the associated devices. Whether it be a 12KV electric distribution line, or your 12 volt DC battery and associated circuitry. You don't just plug in a bigger fuse and expect all to be well. That was BAD advice.

Good luck!:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,629 Posts
'08...If you don't understand why the tolerance in terms of EMF a rectifier puts out doesn't affect how the OP could be blowing his circuit than you are in the wrong field. You must wire homes for a living aka your example.:p Further...if you don't understand why I asked about the configuration of aftermarket lights the OP had to understand his circuit...than you are just a simple man.
In any event, your comments are uncalled for and you still don't have a clue about the vendors that sell the electronic components they do and why.
Yellow...good luck with your bike.
George
Putting high power lighting on motorcycles...much stronger than the modest 23W bulbs with run turn and modulator....with the existing wiring harness is as common as milk. '08 you really need to get out more...lol.
http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?p=1950603
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top