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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all, I have a 1960 5ta that i built into a bobber. I installed electronic igntion and am running batteryless. Everything runs great except if the headlight is on it will die at idle. I can run it with taillight but if both lights are on it will die :/. Do i just turn the idle higher until it wont die with the lights on? How fast should idle be for batteryless? Thanks!
 

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What sort of EI? BB needs a minimum of around 10.5 volts to run, but is happier on +11 volts. I would suggest you opt for and LED headlight 'globe' and taillight. The draw goes from 50/70 watts to less than 5 or something like that [depends on your final setup etc]. Your tail light setup will draw up to 25 watts, this will drop to under 3 with an LED setup.

https://www.classicbritishspares.com/search?q=LED+headlight+bulb
 

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Hi,

1960 5ta that i built into a bobber.
Do i just turn the idle higher until it wont die with the lights on?
Short answer: no.

Longer answer: if you do that, the idle will be so high, it'll be difficult to to get neutral at a stop, and you'll 'crash the gears' trying to get it back into gear to pull away; raising the idle is treating a symptom, not the cause; the cause is the alternator doesn't produce enough at idle to run even just the ignition on its own, never mind lights as well.

Does the bike have LED 'bulbs' in the lights; if not, as "tridentt150v" posted, their low current consumption compared to normal incandescent bulbs will lower the rpm where the alternator is spinning fast enough to generate enough to power both ignition and LED 'bulbs'.

What alternator is on the bike? 3-phase high-output will produce the most at low rpm.

But the bike's problem is trying to run it on public roads entirely batteryless, Simply unnecessary at the end of the second decade of the 21st century.

EI? BB needs a minimum of around 10.5 volts to run,
Not necessarily. While most Mk.4 will usually run 'normally' at lower Volts than Mk.3, any given figure isn't guaranteed. It's 12V electrics, not some imaginary figure somewhere below 12V.

Plus, again, it's trying to 'fix' the problem by 'treating' just one of its symptoms. The problem is the alternator doesn't produce enough Amps at tickover/idle to run both ignition and lights. That's why Triumph fitted a battery with DC electrics, to power the electrics when the alternator can't.

Your tail light setup will draw up to 25 watts,
:Huh You're thinking of an incandescent stop/brake lamp/filament, which consumes 21-23 Watts (~2 Amps). I suspect the OP doesn't ride around with the stop filament illuminated all the time (or, if he does, that's part of the bike's problem). Incandescent tail filaments consume 5-6 Watts (~0.5A).

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #5
What sort of EI? BB needs a minimum of around 10.5 volts to run, but is happier on +11 volts. I would suggest you opt for and LED headlight 'globe' and taillight. The draw goes from 50/70 watts to less than 5 or something like that [depends on your final setup etc]. Your tail light setup will draw up to 25 watts, this will drop to under 3 with an LED setup.

https://www.classicbritishspares.com/search?q=LED+headlight+bulb
Hi, I have a Pazon electronic ignition, led tail light and incandescent headlight. Can the headlight bulb be replace with led ?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi,

1960 5ta that i built into a bobber.
Do i just turn the idle higher until it wont die with the lights on?
Short answer: no.

Longer answer: if you do that, the idle will be so high, it'll be difficult to to get neutral at a stop, and you'll 'crash the gears' trying to get it back into gear to pull away; raising the idle is treating a symptom, not the cause; the cause is the alternator doesn't produce enough at idle to run even just the ignition on its own, never mind lights as well.

Does the bike have LED 'bulbs' in the lights; if not, as "tridentt150v" posted, their low current consumption compared to normal incandescent bulbs will lower the rpm where the alternator is spinning fast enough to generate enough to power both ignition and LED 'bulbs'.

What alternator is on the bike? 3-phase high-output will produce the most at low rpm.

But the bike's problem is trying to run it on public roads entirely batteryless, Simply unnecessary at the end of the second decade of the 21st century.

EI? BB needs a minimum of around 10.5 volts to run,
Not necessarily. While most Mk.4 will usually run 'normally' at lower Volts than Mk.3, any given figure isn't guaranteed. It's 12V electrics, not some imaginary figure somewhere below 12V.

Plus, again, it's trying to 'fix' the problem by 'treating' just one of its symptoms. The problem is the alternator doesn't produce enough Amps at tickover/idle to run both ignition and lights. That's why Triumph fitted a battery with DC electrics, to power the electrics when the alternator can't.

Your tail light setup will draw up to 25 watts,
<img src="http://www.triumphrat.net/images/smilies/huh1.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Huh!" class="inlineimg" /> You're thinking of an incandescent stop/brake lamp/filament, which consumes 21-23 Watts (~2 Amps). I suspect the OP doesn't ride around with the stop filament illuminated all the time (or, if he does, that's part of the bike's problem). Incandescent tail filaments consume 5-6 Watts (~0.5A).

Hth.

Regards,
So where do you recommend I start in fixing it ? Led headlight ?
 

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Hi,

So where do you recommend I start in fixing it ?
Pictures of your bike would be useful.

As @Tritn Thrashr posted, fit a battery. Doesn't have to be an original-size one; certainly here in GB, the batteries fitted to domestic alarm systems are small (~5 Ah), sealed (can be fitted at any angle without leaking) and are replaced after a certain time (so can be had cheaply second-hand although they usually have several years' life in 'em).

Which alternator is fitted to the bike?

LED headlamp 'bulb' might help but bear in mind the ignition coil(s) draw ~3.5A over most of the engine's rpm range, including idle. Firstly here, what do you need the lights for? If it's only because the law says they have to be on in daylight, and you never ride at night where there aren't any streetlights, LED pilot lamp will be cheaper and just as effective - @rambo has previously suggested "Eagle Eye" LED available on Ebay, there are at least a couple that fit in a standard pilot bulb hole in the headlamp reflector.

If you do need to ride at night where there aren't any streetlamps, what headlamp bulb fitting does the bike have? Original BPF:-



... P43t:-



... or P45t:-



Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hi,

So where do you recommend I start in fixing it ?
Pictures of your bike would be useful.

As @Tritn Thrashr posted, fit a battery. Doesn't have to be an original-size one; certainly here in GB, the batteries fitted to domestic alarm systems are small (~5 Ah), sealed (can be fitted at any angle without leaking) and are replaced after a certain time (so can be had cheaply second-hand although they usually have several years' life in 'em).

Which alternator is fitted to the bike?

LED headlamp 'bulb' might help but bear in mind the ignition coil(s) draw ~3.5A over most of the engine's rpm range, including idle. Firstly here, what do you need the lights for? If it's only because the law says they have to be on in daylight, and you never ride at night where there aren't any streetlights, LED pilot lamp will be cheaper and just as effective - @rambo has previously suggested "Eagle Eye" LED available on Ebay, there are at least a couple that fit in a standard pilot bulb hole in the headlamp reflector.

If you do need to ride at night where there aren't any streetlamps, what headlamp bulb fitting does the bike have? Original BPF:-



... P43t:-



... or P45t:-



Regards,
heres a shot of my bike. I’m only slightly hesitant to add a battery because I’ve already painted the bike and “finished” it. I do plan on riding at night so lights are necessary. I’m not sure wht alternator is in there ( 3 phase or not). Would a 3 phase help? And also I didn’t put a new rotor in (magnet) and heard this is the key to a good batteryless system. Would I want to try that? I appreciate all your help thank you!
 

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Not to change the subject, but while I am not a chopper guy (my '97 HD FXDWG is as close as I get), your bike is about the sweetest, cleanest, most beautiful chopper I've ever seen! And one I could live with! The simplicity and white really knock it out of the park! There's even something in it that seems to say, "Pure Triumph" - at least to me!

I absolutely love it! I've never seen anything like it.

KUDOS on your build! :bighand

:Mexican wave

:welldone

GN
 

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Ah, the picture definitely makes it pretty clear what level of minimalism you're going for.

I'm assuming that when you went for electronic ignition you also ditched the original charging control for something more "modern" like a podtronics unit? The DC power on the bike is probably a lot dirtier than you imagine. Incandescent lights and coil ignition don't care that much, but all these leds and the pazon sure do. I can't imagine not having any capacitive element (like a battery) to even things out. Gotta be somewhere you can hide a small battery on there.
 

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heres a shot of my bike. I’m only slightly hesitant to add a battery because I’ve already painted the bike and “finished” it. I do plan on riding at night so lights are necessary. I’m not sure wht alternator is in there ( 3 phase or not). Would a 3 phase help? And also I didn’t put a new rotor in (magnet) and heard this is the key to a good batteryless system. Would I want to try that? I appreciate all your help thank you!
I think you can forget about running this without battery, unless you want light and brake switches to also be kill switches. You can hide a battery the size of a cig pack anywhere, its enough for idling with the lights on. 3-4Ah is all thats needed.
And yes, the original rotor from 1960 is going to be down on magnetism by now.
 

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Not necessarily. While most Mk.4 will usually run 'normally' at lower Volts than Mk.3, any given figure isn't guaranteed. It's 12V electrics, not some imaginary figure somewhere below 12V.

Plus, again, it's trying to 'fix' the problem by 'treating' just one of its symptoms. The problem is the alternator doesn't produce enough Amps at tickover/idle to run both ignition and lights. That's why Triumph fitted a battery with DC electrics, to power the electrics when the alternator can't.


:Huh You're thinking of an incandescent stop/brake lamp/filament, which consumes 21-23 Watts (~2 Amps). I suspect the OP doesn't ride around with the stop filament illuminated all the time (or, if he does, that's part of the bike's problem). Incandescent tail filaments consume 5-6 Watts (~0.5A).

Hth.

Regards,
Stuart...I did say happier above 11...I think I covered that!!

I also said the taillight will draw UP TO 25 watts.

I agree that he wouldn't ride around with the stop light on, but then again if he is riding around I doubt he will have any problems either, the alternator would be producing enough power.....It is when he is stopped and the bike is on idle that he will have issues. And what do you use as you come to a stop??? brakes and so brake lights. If he is pulled up at a set of traffic lights he just might have his brakes applied so he doesn't roll, the bike will definitely die. I used short answers because ICBF writing a novel about every scenario ever to be encountered throughout history. The OP has a very nice bike that he has obviously built or had some major input in, I'm sure he knows what was meant.

The usual place for a battery is in a s/s box under the oil tank and in front of the rear wheel, you can actually get away with a small battery and some electrics in that s/s box.

In days of yore the solution was a Joe Hunt magneto.
 

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If you don't want a battery, have you considered a large value capacitor? Something of the order of 10,000 micro farads with a working voltage of 25V should be a big help in maintaining a minimum voltage for the bike between the fluctuating pulses from the alternator at low rpm. You may have room for this under the tank.
 

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Hi,

I did say happier above 11...I think I covered that!!
John Healy has related certainly on BritBike, and I've also seen, certain Boyer-Bransden Mk.3 coupled to a dud battery, meter across the battery initially shows above 12V, switching on B-B draws the battery Volts just (and I mean literally "just") below 12V, B-B sparks a plug continuously 'til the cutout switches off the B-B, battery Volts rise back above 12V, when the B-B switches on again ... repeat ad nauseam ...

However, the point is academic as the OP has since posted the bike has a Pazon.

Regards,
 

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Hi,

:bighand

:Mexican wave

:welldone

GN
:agree Very pretty.

only slightly hesitant to add a battery because I’ve already painted the bike and “finished” it.
The usual place for a battery is in a s/s box under the oil tank and in front of the rear wheel, you can actually get away with a small battery and some electrics in that s/s box.
:nod My thought too. Then any extra wiring to the rest of the bike could be sheathed in a piece of black plastic tubing beside the frame tube behind the gearbox?

Interesting though the front frame loop is '67-on and the engine timing cover is '62-'68 - circular compartment for points is '62-on, '69-on had an oil pressure switch in the front edge.

alternator
Would a 3 phase help?
Generally yes, because they're more powerful than almost all single-phase and they produce a greater percentage of their rated power at low rpm.

didn’t put a new rotor in (magnet) and heard this is the key to a good batteryless system.
Yes and no.

Rotor with good magnetic strength only ensures the stator's producing as much as possible at all engine rpm. However, if the stator matches, say, the period of the timing cover, it's an RM19 rated for about 8.5 Amps (100 Watts) @ 5,000 rpm ... Otoh, the high-output 3-phase is rated for 14.5A/180W @ 5,000 rpm with the same new rotor ...

not sure wht alternator is in there
Risking telling you something you know already, alternator's inside the primary chaincase. There should be a thick Black cable emerging; if you follow that to its end, you should see two or three thinner wires; post how many wires (two or three), their insulation colours, whether they're connected to a rectifier with a separate Zener diode or a combined reg./rec. and, if three wires, how they're connected - separately or two one terminal, one to the other terminal.

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Ah, the picture definitely makes it pretty clear what level of minimalism you're going for.

I'm assuming that when you went for electronic ignition you also ditched the original charging control for something more "modern" like a podtronics unit? The DC power on the bike is probably a lot dirtier than you imagine. Incandescent lights and coil ignition don't care that much, but all these leds and the pazon sure do. I can't imagine not having any capacitive element (like a battery) to even things out. Gotta be somewhere you can hide a small battery on there.
I do have a podtronics unit yes. I bought it a long while back and the markings on the side completely wore off so I don’t know if It’s one with a capacitor for sure! I assume it is, and it runs great, just not with the headlight ?
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Risking telling you something you know already, alternator's inside the primary chaincase. There should be a thick Black cable emerging; if you follow that to its end, you should see two or three thinner wires; post how many wires (two or three), their insulation colours, whether they're connected to a rectifier with a separate Zener diode or a combined reg./rec. and, if three wires, how they're connected - separately or two one terminal, one to the other terminal.

Hth.

Regards,
My thought too. Then any extra wiring to the rest of the bike could be sheathed in a piece of black plastic tubing beside the frame tube behind the gearbox?

Interesting though the front frame loop is '67-on and the engine timing cover is '62-'68 - circular compartment for points is '62-on, '69-on had an oil pressure switch in the front edge.
It is a 1960 5ta that i converted to side points (or EI0) and removed the dizzy on. The frame is a 72 t100 i believe, never really looked into how to read the markings

No risk ;) The only reason i don't know if its a 'special' alternator is because when i rebuilt and bought a new one i didnt know there was anything but the one! Its 2 wire, both green with yellow stripe and i have them hooked to the two yellow wires on my podtronics rectifier
 

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Discussion Starter #19
If you don't want a battery, have you considered a large value capacitor? Something of the order of 10,000 micro farads with a working voltage of 25V should be a big help in maintaining a minimum voltage for the bike between the fluctuating pulses from the alternator at low rpm. You may have room for this under the tank.
Like the sparx battery eliminator? This is separate from the capacitor that should be inside the podtronics rec?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I think you can forget about running this without battery, unless you want light and brake switches to also be kill switches. You can hide a battery the size of a cig pack anywhere, its enough for idling with the lights on. 3-4Ah is all thats needed.
And yes, the original rotor from 1960 is going to be down on magnetism by now.
Do you have a specific brand/model number? Im willing to go this route if it really is that small. Thanks!
 
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