[djw]

Out for a spin on the Trident and I think the ignition pick-up finally decided to go out after about 15 min. down the road.

Never did that before. Cut off like a switch thrown, no warning at all. All other electrics working fine. Tip-top battery. Just like a kill switch.

Rolled a couple hundred yards to an empty lot. Cranked great, but absolutely no indication of wanting to start until about 30 min of cool down. Then I could only make it maybe 3 min then it died again.

The only tools I had on me was a cell phone and AAA card Best bike tools I have ever purchased

The bike didn't fall off the truck like LRH's a couple of weeks ago, but "I" did much to my embarrassment and amusement of passers by, wasn't wearing any gear either.

I presume it is the pick-up as I have not had a chance to test until daylight tomorrow.

Anyone ever come up with a definitive test for confirming a heat-related failure? Got 13 years out of it.

I have a spare pick-up but it would be great to confirm the existing part is wonky without stranding myself again.

Was bored waiting for the cool down (takes a while in Tx), so I took a pic of the sleeping Trident for something to do. The pizza place was closed, sun was fading fast.

I think I'll start carrying a spare.

 

[daytona 750]

it definately sounds like everyone elses explanation of a pickup coil failure.i dont know how you could test it off the bike, unless you put it in the oven or something?

 

[MickMaguire]

it definately sounds like everyone elses explanation of a pickup coil failure.i dont know how you could test it off the bike, unless you put it in the oven or something?

Oven might work, but also might melt it, you could try boiling it and testing resistance - kind of like testing a thermostat.

 

[daytona 750]

yes, that would work better!
do you have a digital thermometer? if so ride it until it dies, see how hot the casing is over the pickup, and that will give you an idea of the heat range you will need to check it at, obviously it would be slightly higher inside the casing, but it gives you an idea of what range you need to get to to start testing it

 

[andrewb]

Oven might work, but also might melt it, you could try boiling it and testing resistance - kind of like testing a thermostat.

Bring it up to temp in a oil bath, don't use water. Pot of motor oil on a electric heater, not gas.

 

[djw]

Definitely pick-up the tests confirm.

Think months, not miles on these things.

 

[djw]

All fixed

Ok, here's the results.

The old original (mfg 4/94) and new pick-ups are definitely a different construction. Both are manufactured by Gill. You can tell which version (at least on mine) without pulling the cover because the black plastic sheathing can pull back from the crankcase grommet on the old version to expose the wires. The new one's sheathing is glued into the grommet. This may not be an absolute test, you might have to pull the right crankshaft cover to check the pick-up to be sure.

Pictures below show the old style on the left and new on the right.

Internally the new model is potted and has a single fabric/coated inside lead, the old one is not potted (you can see internal wires looking in the back) and has two separate leads between between the sensor and the grommet and the date is stamped on the mounting lug.

Resistance of the "bad" one begins at about 530 ohms at ambient tx temp (spec says good = 530 +-10%). The bad/old one tests in-spec with a good pulse initially, when it fails there is no pulse at all. The new one, oddly enough, is "out of spec" according to the manual at about 615 ohms.

After about 10 minutes of idling the case temp shows rh crank cover at 140F on an IR gun and the old pick-up fails tests and shows the is completely shorted. Surprisingly low temp.

I pulled the old one and repeated the test inside in the kitchen oven at a similar low temp and it shorts within a few minutes, and returns to 530 ohms as soon as it cools down.

It is such an easy fix on naked bikes that it sure seems to make sense to check if you have an old one and replace it as a preventive maintenance item. On Daytonas/Trophys as soon as you have the right fairing off next time. That is unless you have an easy means to retrieve a dead bike. At my cool down rate it would have taken me 3 cycles and about 2 hours to make it a mile.

I was rather shocked at the pick-up failure because my Trident has relatively low miles, not my primary bike and I don't ride it all that much.

 

[KitNYC]

Do you know for sure that the sheathing was not originally glued on the older pickup? I had always assumed the sheathing could ride up 'cause the glue failed over time...

Cheers,
-Kit

 

[daytona 750]

as with most of the electrical failures on t3's, it appears to be more effected by its age in years than it age in miles, if that makes sense

 

[djw]

Do you know for sure that the sheathing was not originally glued on the older pickup? I had always assumed the sheathing could ride up 'cause the glue failed over time...

You're probably right - I can't say that for sure, it's only that way on my sample of 2. The other bike is the same way and has an old pick-up.

To be 100% you'd probably have to pull the camshaft cover and look at the pick-up design. And a big presumption on my part that the new pick-up is immune to future heat failure, but I have no evidence yet of anyone with a new pick-up has had the same problems.

 

[KitNYC]

My Trident definitely had the new-style pickup, & the sheathing definitely rode up. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the part that failed on me, though. Alas.

Cheers,
-Kit

 

[djw]

Anyone know if this is can be had on on other makes?

Standard Engine Position Sensor

http://www.gill.co.uk/products/digital_ignition/eng_sensors.htm

Looks exactly like the OEM part except for the color.

Would be nice if one could source locally at 1/2 the Triumph price.

http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/p12-...ts-for-motorcycles-electrex-world-7276-0.html

 

[daytona 750]

hmmm, does look VERY similar.i guess we need a guinee pig to buy one and try and fit it!

 

[djw]

I'll be guinea pig if I can find one (at less than $56). I've got the old one in hand and another bike to do.

 

[djw]

I got a couple of emails back and apparently the Gill part is often in stationary engines, i.e. gensets and the like.

Other motorcycle applications are on much less common machines for example Hesketh (I had no idea what a Hesketh is/was until now). Triumph is the only mass market user.

The price I got from a distributor of the part for stationary engines was $65+ship so it's no savings from the Triumph price.

There is also an equivalent PVL part for this, but I have no idea how to order it specifically from Triumph. Trev from sprint manufacturing has some so I ordered one as they are similarly priced. I may check with PVL later to see if there is any other bike application for their pn unless someone's Deutsch is better than mine and can check.

 

[djw]

I stand corrected

Ok, here's the results.

The old original (mfg 4/94) and new pick-ups are definitely a different construction. Both are manufactured by Gill. You can tell which version (at least on mine) without pulling the cover because the black plastic sheathing can pull back from the crankcase grommet on the old version to expose the wires. The new one's sheathing is glued into the grommet. This may not be an absolute test, you might have to pull the right crankshaft cover to check the pick-up to be sure.

Pictures below show the old style on the left and new on the right.

Internally the new model is potted and has a single fabric/coated inside lead, the old one is not potted (you can see internal wires looking in the back) and has two separate leads between between the sensor and the grommet and the date is stamped on the mounting lug.

Resistance of the "bad" one begins at about 530 ohms at ambient tx temp (spec says good = 530 +-10%). The bad/old one tests in-spec with a good pulse initially, when it fails there is no pulse at all. The new one, oddly enough, is "out of spec" according to the manual at about 615 ohms.

After about 10 minutes of idling the case temp shows rh crank cover at 140F on an IR gun and the old pick-up fails tests and shows the is completely shorted. Surprisingly low temp.

I pulled the old one and repeated the test inside in the kitchen oven at a similar low temp and it shorts within a few minutes, and returns to 530 ohms as soon as it cools down.

It is such an easy fix on naked bikes that it sure seems to make sense to check if you have an old one and replace it as a preventive maintenance item. On Daytonas/Trophys as soon as you have the right fairing off next time. That is unless you have an easy means to retrieve a dead bike. At my cool down rate it would have taken me 3 cycles and about 2 hours to make it a mile.

I was rather shocked at the pick-up failure because my Trident has relatively low miles, not my primary bike and I don't ride it all that much.

Upon closer examination the older part is actually the PVL part 1290009, the Gill part is 1290022.