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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone know why is my bike (T120) running way better after the adaptations are reset? I am not talking slightly but night and day, no throttle snatch, no hesitation, smooth as butter. Then after a few hundred miles, all goes down the drain? Is there a way of "locking" the ECU as not to use these adaptations? In the end, what exactly are these?
 

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How did you reset the adaptations? I thought it was locked to doing anything except reading sensors. The ecu will adapt to ambient temperature and pressure after riding it. If you were able to reset adaptations to the factory defaults using software, the next step would be to let it idle for 12 min after the fan comes on. This would adapt to local ambient conditions. After a while, the O2 sensors tend to lean it out in closed loop. You may be feeling this.
 

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I once saw a document directly from Triumph; can’t remember if it was from the service manual or elsewhere.

I know it said that you start it without touching the throttle and allow it idle until the fan comes on, then allow it to idle a further 12 minutes. Then shut off the throttle and you’re good to go.

There was/is a PDF somewhere on this forum that had this info. I’d even like it to see it again if someone know the location of this document.
 

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Until the fan comes on is all that is required I would never run it for another 12 minutes.

The ECU is adapting to a riding style?

Time to wind it up?
It will adapt if you let it run for 12 min. The 12 min tune is a real thing.

https://www.triumphrat.net/the-rocket-science-forum/12120-12-minute-tune.html#/topics/12120

The instructions for loading a tune with TuneECU were to load the tune, reset the adaptations, and do the 12-min tune. I loaded a lot of tunes into my Rocket with Tuneboy without letting it idle for 12 minutes because it will adapt as you ride it. Waiting for the fan to come on doesn’t do anything. I didn’t say it would adapt to riding style. It adapts to ambient pressure and temperature. What does “time to wind it up mean”?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The bike ran almost perfect like 200-300 miles after the adaptations were reset and then it started doing the snatchy/jerky throttle again. Keep on resetting the adaptations every few days sounds stupid to me...
 

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The bike ran almost perfect like 200-300 miles after the adaptations were reset and then it started doing the snatchy/jerky throttle again. Keep on resetting the adaptations every few days sounds stupid to me...
I always have the snatchy jerky thing, mainly at the top of 1st. How did you do the reset adaptation?
 

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I can't understand why an 'adaptation' at idle (in closed loop) for 12 minutes after the cooling fan comes on has anything to do with a snatchy, jerky thing mainly at the top of first.

When a change is made to an exhaust (for example) the ECU will adapt the closed loop correction over time when at idle but this adaptation is not in the open loop area and I don't believe the ECU can adapt much in open loop at wot.

wind it up - forget the idle closed loop adaptation and just ride it hard.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Strange thing is not all T120 have the "snatchiness" which is weird. Or maybe people are not that bothered and get used to it. Whilst there have been numerous solutions suggested (decat, booster plug, power commander, o2 delete) I wonder how effective are they in the long run? I wonder if the ECU will not always try to "adapt" and basically be continuously fighting back these changes. I guess one solution would be to have a Bluetooth dongle always on and just reset adaptations using the TuneECU app before each ride... Used to be quite happy with my T120 but this is driving me nuts to the point of thinking to part exchange it against an R NineT.
 

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Strange thing is not all T120 have the "snatchiness" which is weird. Or maybe people are not that bothered and get used to it. Whilst there have been numerous solutions suggested (decat, booster plug, power commander, o2 delete) I wonder how effective are they in the long run? I wonder if the ECU will not always try to "adapt" and basically be continuously fighting back these changes. I guess one solution would be to have a Bluetooth dongle always on and just reset adaptations using the TuneECU app before each ride... Used to be quite happy with my T120 but this is driving me nuts to the point of thinking to part exchange it against an R NineT.
Accelerating slowly in 1st at about 2500-2700 rpm, waiting to shift, it starts to buck or miss. I note that the throttle is barely open. On my bike, there is a lag of less than a second between opening or closing the throttle and when the fuel kicks in or turns off. The snatchiness may happen when the throttle goes into this lag space. I think something is f’ed up with or this may be a characteristic of the electronic throttle. I never noticed this with a cable throttle. The Booster plug didn’t cure this and it isn’t enough of a problem to do anything about. This doesn’t happen under anything harder than gentle acceleration.
 

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As you open the electronic throttle the ecu moves through the sections of the fuel chart.

Could it be that sections of the fuel map are corrupt and may need a re-flash?

If this is the issue it would be more noticeable when opening the throttle slowly.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
As you open the electronic throttle the ecu moves through the sections of the fuel chart.

Could it be that sections of the fuel map are corrupt and may need a re-flash?

If this is the issue it would be more noticeable when opening the throttle slowly.
It does make some sense, but then why is this happening to so many people? Could it be a batch of corrupted images/ECU?
 

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As you open the electronic throttle the ecu moves through the sections of the fuel chart.

Could it be that sections of the fuel map are corrupt and may need a re-flash?

If this is the issue it would be more noticeable when opening the throttle slowly.
I’ve had it serviced three times. I believe if a new map is available, it gets loaded when they connect the dealer tool. I hate dealing with my dealer. This issue would only involve the first 1 or 2 columns of the MAP fuel table where the pressure is lowest. Maybe the MAP sensor tubes are leaking.
 

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As you open the electronic throttle the ecu moves through the sections of the fuel chart.

Could it be that sections of the fuel map are corrupt and may need a re-flash?

If this is the issue it would be more noticeable when opening the throttle slowly.
It does make some sense, but then why is this happening to so many people? Could it be a batch of corrupted images/ECU?
I think it’s a design flaw. If it was just a problem with the fueling, assuming they know about this, they would have fixed it.
 

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As you open the electronic throttle the ecu moves through the sections of the fuel chart.

Could it be that sections of the fuel map are corrupt and may need a re-flash?

If this is the issue it would be more noticeable when opening the throttle slowly.
I think it's just a huge twin. People fit a BoosterPlug to "fix snatchiness" in the same way as you might add a rubber-band to your throttle cable. The snatchiness is because the bike reacts instantly to tiny changes in throttle. If people don't like it, use rain mode, as that just applies a logarithmic response curve so hand movement has less effect on the ECU set butterfly valve angle.

One person's snatchiness is another person's responsiveness. I like the fact that a 1mm movement is the difference between cruise and acceleration, and I find the constant complaints about it a bit bewildering. Most sports bikes don't have the issue because they have no torque at 3Krpm when you're in traffic. Ride one with the revs anywhere with decent torque and you'll find any well-tuned sports bike will be "snatchy" in the same way.
It's true that fly-by-wire is a bit finicky, but that's because there are a limited number of steps on the sensor, but I don't find it an issue at all and no better or worse than any other bike I've ever ridden, and I ride every day in heavy traffic. I had a couple of VTR-1000 in London, and a DynoJet jet kit made them "snatchy" in the same way simply because they were better tuned and more responsive.

So if you don't want that, either buy a 900 with less torque, or fit a BoosterPlug to over-richen your mixture and remove the responsiveness (i.e. to reduce the torque).
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I think it's just a huge twin. People fit a BoosterPlug to "fix snatchiness" in the same way as you might add a rubber-band to your throttle cable. The snatchiness is because the bike reacts instantly to tiny changes in throttle. If people don't like it, use rain mode, as that just applies a logarithmic response curve so hand movement has less effect on the ECU set butterfly valve angle.

One person's snatchiness is another person's responsiveness. I like the fact that a 1mm movement is the difference between cruise and acceleration, and I find the constant complaints about it a bit bewildering. Most sports bikes don't have the issue because they have no torque at 3Krpm when you're in traffic. Ride one with the revs anywhere with decent torque and you'll find any well-tuned sports bike will be "snatchy" in the same way.
It's true that fly-by-wire is a bit finicky, but that's because there are a limited number of steps on the sensor, but I don't find it an issue at all and no better or worse than any other bike I've ever ridden, and I ride every day in heavy traffic. I had a couple of VTR-1000 in London, and a DynoJet jet kit made them "snatchy" in the same way simply because they were better tuned and more responsive.

So if you don't want that, either buy a 900 with less torque, or fit a BoosterPlug to over-richen your mixture and remove the responsiveness (i.e. to reduce the torque).
Rain mode doesn't have any effect (at least not on mine). There are plenty of bikes with similar torque that doesn't have this "feature", take BMW R NineT for example. Even better in Triumph's own courtyard, Speedmaster, same engine no issue. Scrambler 1200 same engine no issue. All with ride by wire which gets blamed alot. As it was said above, it's definitely a fuel management/ECU issue. Triumph is just lazy or not interested in fixing the map for T120 as it will most likely cannibalise their products. To be honest, I am not sure if there was ever a new map released. Unless I'm missing something, for the past 3 years the version quoted on each of the service inspection sheet reads Calibration number 030029. If there was a new version should this not appear somewhere. Checked with TuneEcu and got the same.
I just don't understand it having the same engine and detune it for some of their models. Essentially, T120 got the worst map for this engine compare to Thruxton, Scrambler 1200 and the new Speedmaster. Ah, and the BoosterPlug, although I haven't fit one myself from what I have read (and there are hundreds of posts already including on other forums) it appears that it's just a temporary cure, too many people reporting that the ECU somewhat "adapted" and the whole thing runs leans and jerky again (to some extent). One day the vendor will receive a wake up call to pay attention to things like that but it'll likely be too late. It's unacceptable to have the technology and the solution and simply not to put it in practice. And don't get me started that's related to emission and eurocrats as I'll come up wit the previous examples again. >:)
 

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My 1700 T-Bird and both Rockets had way more torque. Neither had FBW. The issue for me isn't controlling the torque smoothly on take off. It happens when holding the throttle stock still while slightly open. Some minor popping in the pipes under these conditions suggests that it’s going lean, on and off. This could just be the response of the FBW, as you say.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
My 1700 T-Bird and both Rockets had way more torque. Neither had FBW. The issue for me isn't controlling the torque smoothly on take off. It happens when holding the throttle stock still while slightly open. Some minor popping in the pipes under these conditions suggests that it’s going lean, on and off. This could just be the response of the FBW, as you say.
I guess you mean RBW or is it Fly By Wire?:grin2:
 
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