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99 daytona oil full of water

4K views 46 replies 6 participants last post by  StainlessNiel 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi guys, back again lol
She's a 99 reg 00, 955i daytona custom lol (speed triple mode)
52k regularly serviced and used daily since May 2019

I was getting the bike ready for mot and noticed the water was low ( I wasn't worried as its happened in the past as the header tank has been known to leak at the connection seal on the tank)
So popped off the metal cap filler under tank flap and after 3 jugs knew Sompting was wrong.... So I looked around the pipes for leaks an nothing coming from the bike, turns out all the water had breeched into the engine oil.

Now my instant thoughts are....

Head gasket ( even though bike runs sweet) obvs not been run since water breech yesterday)

Someone mentioned the cylinder sleeves have a seal but I can't locate it on any schematics or parts lists

I'm gonna be doin the chain an tensioner an headgasket, I'll also wanna do the valve shims too. 1 thing that does worry me is the oil has been quite fuely the last 2 changes and am I likely gonna be doin rings aswell as sleeves?

Is there anything else you would recommend to do on these engines whilst open?

And by chance am I really lucky and is it just a daft valve that has something to do with oil an water lol ( wishful thinking)

I've asked a few questions there and any help will be greatly appreciated as I love my tona.... I'd only replace her for a new 1200 monster R lol
(even then I wouldn't part with her lol)
 
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#2 ·
If the water was flowing into the oil as you poured it in I can't see it being a head gasket, surely something that leaky would show up when riding.

A compression check will let you know if the rings are worn.

Another thing to check is the water pump shaft seal. That might be your leak point.
 
#3 ·
Thanks shifty, I had a thought on that but having replaced it last year, to my understanding they have a weak point between two seals, either the oil seal goes or the water and if either do go it usually leaks off out the bottom of water pump, That's how I spotted the leak last time. Unusual for both to go and not the weak point. Please Someone correct me if I'm wrong lol
No I never notice any problems while riding which only means it's not blown across the cylinders but then there may be a crack in the head or even the block but honestly couldn't tell you how long it's been out of water, I check weekly but can do 200 mile a day sometimes (plus been parked up in shed since december. I guess it's tear down time although I will check the pump first just to rule it out
 
#4 ·
The liners don’t have a seal that can be replace, theŷ pushed into place with a bead of sealant round the bottom. They don’t usually leak unless they’ve been disturbe but maybe after a long time...
if coolant is going straight into the oil and it runs ok, I’d say that rules out the head gasket.
and you can pull the water pump out of the side of the motor with the hose still connected, top up coolant and see if it leaks there.
 
#7 ·
That’s a pain guess it’s head gasket, liner seal or (unlikely) crack in head.
The head should come off without lifting the liners so you can pour liquid between the liners and see if it leaks away. If it doesn’t then there’s something awry with the head.
If the liners lift then they have to be done any way.
 
#11 ·
The sealing itself is pretty simple, clean off the old sealant with a wooden scraper etc, run a bead of Threebond 1215 round the shoulder and install the liner, let it cure. Installing the liner over the piston without trapping oil rings is very very fiddly, have a read of my "parts bin special" thread on the speed triple forum for my account of getting it wrong repeatedly.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Tbh looking back she has got noticeably slower, I put a lot down to losing the fairing an adding 2 of the flattest headlights you can get lol (s3's)
And a puff of white smoke between high load changes (after talking with some of my wingmen) mabey it's just the gasket between the chain and liner jackets (as it still ran lovely, been garaged all winter but a 5 min tick over once a week to keep her from goin stiff) other than that it is like you say a crack or liners.
How common are the liners to go with a headgasket failure?
After a thorough read of my Haynes, the liners look a ball ache for 3 smears of gloop lol

Anyway, engines out now as of tonight, and head off tomorrow..... Fingers crossed is just a head gasket..... Any tips tricks to splitting the head without disturbing the liners??? Lol
 
#20 ·
Any tips tricks to splitting the head without disturbing the liners??? Lol
Just spotted this, sorry. You don't need to worry about disturbing the liners while taking the head off. Nothing in the head removal /installation process involves turning the engine over so you're good. Just don't turn the engine over (even by hand) once the head is off.

Sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs but don't reuse your head gasket even if it looks fine.
 
#31 ·
Hi SN, hope your project is going well?
I currently have the head off my ‘97 T595 and have asked a few questions on this post that I think you might be able to help me with?
I sent my head off for pressure testing and it came back with more threads showing on one of the oil gallery plugs, as per my image.
So...
1) I’m just wondering if the threads showing on the two plugs in your old head appear at different heights too? This may be normal I don’t know?
Also...
2) I was just wondering whether I could ask a really MASSIVE favour of you? Could you maybe progressively tighten your two with a torque wrench to find out at what setting they finally tighten some more, and let me have the last setting used before they move? I frustratingly cannot find any information on these plugs anywhere, so would equally be curious, as they’re a crush fit, whether there is any different between the torques for both plugs?

Hope that makes sense and that you still have your old head?

Have a great evening,
Stuart
 

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#17 · (Edited)
Looks like a massive crack in the head above a combustion chamber to me? Ouch.

I believe the heads are the same for the same generation engine (i.e. Pre-2002 955) between Sprint/S3/Daytona apart from whether it's painted or not. The cams are different and you likely have stronger valve springs as well, I cba to look at the parts diagrams to confirm but I'll be bored at work tomorrow...
 
#21 ·
It's all good. I am actually a truck and car mechanic,, my questions are more for pice of mind with you guys obviously knowing more about these specific motors I knew I was in good company for the info I needed.

As for the damage I can only assume it went on my last ride home in late November ( it was dark raining and foggy) and I can only assume she's lost her water and heat stress has caused it with the fact the engine has prob lost water and been battered for 50 miles home. One thing that does concern me is the dummy lights should have flashed up with a fault of at least no water so I'll have to look into that although the weather was that bad I may have not noticed.

Either way that's some heat to cause that to crack like that.
I've seen a few threads in here when I comes to coolant systems and one guy made a good point about the header tank system..... I'm wondering if I can implement one in somehow and do away with the tank in the rear as it's needed new seals for a while I think on the elbows that come out the top as if I top up too much I comes out the lower seal.

I did have to fit a water pump 12000 mile ago as the water seal had popped on 1 of my first months of owning it.

Is there a possibility with the header tank seal shot it may have transfered water into the tank and then not drawn it back in once cooled? Is that even a thing lol
 
#26 ·
I've seen a few threads in here when I comes to coolant systems and one guy made a good point about the header tank system..... I'm wondering if I can implement one in somehow
Not sure what you mean here, you've already got a header tank so I don't understand what you're proposing.

Is there a possibility with the header tank seal shot it may have transfered water into the tank and then not drawn it back in once cooled?
If the seal is shot then it could well have leaked when the coolant travels either way through the tube. I think this would only happen to the point where there's not enough coolant to reach the overflow line on the thermostat housing though, and since the housing is above the head on your model that still leaves a pretty full coolant system. You mentioned some rust on the water pump impeller earlier, do you use proper antifreeze in your coolant? If not then it may have frozen in the snow you mentioned and blown the water jacket in the head.

+1 to @DonTheMan said, although the drain plug is on the side of cylinder 1 on this vintage of 955.
 
#24 ·
In all the years of head gasket Ive seen it a few times with freezing...... And tbh you have a very valid point that I never thought of ( it snowed for 2 weeks here in Jan) ....its logical with the material being so thin in bikes I imagine it can happen easily with them.... Although the oil had mixed with the engine whilst running as there is creamness in the oil as you would get with a head gasket.

My personal thought is its been run dry of coolant and over heated to do that, what else could cause that from there and not damage the ports side of the head as there's no cracks on the combustion side just between oil and water!! Guess I'll never know now but to keep a keen eye in the future.

Also I've stood the engine block upright andface level and poured fresh water up to the tops of the liners(water side, not piston side lol) while I wait for my parts to come. I'm I correct in thinking if these are indeed sealed then the water level shouldn't drop?? ( I've blocked the pipe up at the rear of the block, so I'm assuming that's the only other legit way out for the water to flow other than out the top)
 
#27 ·
If your referring to the 10mm bolt in the block around the water jacket for the cylinder then mine has this yes but its sealed and OK. The water hasn't dropped over night but I'll leave it to see how it goes cause I suppose cold water sitting is very different to hot water under pressure tbh I'm going to just bite the bullet and do the lot fellas.......
I've decided that what I can't see is bugging me and I know how fed up I'll be if I do the head and get her running to find water dissappearing again. For the sake of it I've half way stripped it down, it's only on 50k but I'm never getting rid so may aswell rebuild the lump fresh while it's apart.

One thing is making me curious tho I've been inspecting the cams and after some reading hear realise the numbers aren't infact part numbers but from what I've notice even these differ from inlet to exhaust...... Mine has a pair of 1140345 cams although not identical other than a Grove in the inlet. The inlet has a no 1 in the cast and the other has a no 11.
How can I be sure these are the right ones
 
#28 ·
The pump was second hand and was bought like this but I'm thinking your right, especially as its blown into th oil like expanding water would do!

The liners are gonna bug me if I don't do them, and I love bikes but don't wanna fix it twice lol

I'll just do the lot.
Time for a pen an paper and list my parts 😢

:unsure:are racecomp still doing the turbo kit.(joke)
Me to the wife:
Nowt I can do love, the turbo that's on it needs replacing (haha)
 
#29 · (Edited)
I've done a fair amount of looking at various cams from the 955 and 1050 engines for my project. My personal theory is the number stamped into the camshaft is for a 'blank' camshaft which hasn't had the lobes machined to a profile. Once they are machined then they have a different part number but the stamp remains. For example, I have an exhaust camshaft from a 2004 Sprint (at least it was sold to me as such) which also has 1140345 stamped on it but is definitely a different cam to either of yours.

I haven't found a surefire way to know which cams you have tbh, but it's likely they are the correct ones as people swapping cams about is fairly uncommon. The long duration of the 1st gen 955 Daytona cams means if you measure the lobe width and height with callipers you won't get the actual lift figure because the clearance ramps increase the width of what you would assume is the base circle, giving you a falsely low lift figure. I built myself a cam measuring bench to compare profiles and even then the lift figures can vary drastically from the specification. The same Sprint cam I mentioned earlier is specced at 8mm 7.45mm lift but I measured it at 7.43mm using my bench and I can't explain the difference.

If you want you can post me your cams and I'll run them across my bench to give you the measurements, but I haven't measured any other Daytona cams to compare, and I can't guarantee they'll match the spec in a way that would give a warm feeling to what they actually are. Have a look at my project thread for more discussion on the cam lift figures etc.


EDIT: Turns out the Sprint cams have a different spec (amended above) to the Speed Triple and they match the actual spec very well. I incorrectly assumed they were common across the Sprint and Speed Triple.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Sorry to revive this but I've struck gold.i think.
I haven't had time to do the tona since I had to build the workshop to do it first.anyway luck would have it that I won with the only bid on a 10k daytona lump, and tbh it looks in very good condition apart from a grotty clutch casing. Although this one has a big bolt going into the side of it(looks factory) ..... The only difference between them in fact. I didn't manage to get the vin or the reg to know exact year.
I've seen a few threads here but is there any main visual differences between the 595 an 955 engine to look at?
Have I bought the wrong one in my giddiness lol?
Engine number l054772.
Compared to l108106 on my blown one.
I have a feeling I made a boo boo here haha
Anyway, I imagine it's the same as a speedy engine so will go ahead an install it with the speedy map for now.
Bonus is its a, just about run in motor to thrash in the meantime....summer without a bike sucks big time.
-20hp or not ill be happy to be out on her again for now lol
 
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