[StainlessNiel]

Hi guys, back again lol
She's a 99 reg 00, 955i daytona custom lol (speed triple mode)
52k regularly serviced and used daily since May 2019

I was getting the bike ready for mot and noticed the water was low ( I wasn't worried as its happened in the past as the header tank has been known to leak at the connection seal on the tank)
So popped off the metal cap filler under tank flap and after 3 jugs knew Sompting was wrong.... So I looked around the pipes for leaks an nothing coming from the bike, turns out all the water had breeched into the engine oil.

Now my instant thoughts are....

Head gasket ( even though bike runs sweet) obvs not been run since water breech yesterday)

Someone mentioned the cylinder sleeves have a seal but I can't locate it on any schematics or parts lists

I'm gonna be doin the chain an tensioner an headgasket, I'll also wanna do the valve shims too. 1 thing that does worry me is the oil has been quite fuely the last 2 changes and am I likely gonna be doin rings aswell as sleeves?

Is there anything else you would recommend to do on these engines whilst open?

And by chance am I really lucky and is it just a daft valve that has something to do with oil an water lol ( wishful thinking)

I've asked a few questions there and any help will be greatly appreciated as I love my tona.... I'd only replace her for a new 1200 monster R lol
(even then I wouldn't part with her lol)

 

[Dr.Shifty]

If the water was flowing into the oil as you poured it in I can't see it being a head gasket, surely something that leaky would show up when riding.

A compression check will let you know if the rings are worn.

Another thing to check is the water pump shaft seal. That might be your leak point.

 

[StainlessNiel]

Thanks shifty, I had a thought on that but having replaced it last year, to my understanding they have a weak point between two seals, either the oil seal goes or the water and if either do go it usually leaks off out the bottom of water pump, That's how I spotted the leak last time. Unusual for both to go and not the weak point. Please Someone correct me if I'm wrong lol
No I never notice any problems while riding which only means it's not blown across the cylinders but then there may be a crack in the head or even the block but honestly couldn't tell you how long it's been out of water, I check weekly but can do 200 mile a day sometimes (plus been parked up in shed since december. I guess it's tear down time although I will check the pump first just to rule it out

 

[DonTheMan]

The liners don’t have a seal that can be replace, theŷ pushed into place with a bead of sealant round the bottom. They don’t usually leak unless they’ve been disturbe but maybe after a long time...
if coolant is going straight into the oil and it runs ok, I’d say that rules out the head gasket.
and you can pull the water pump out of the side of the motor with the hose still connected, top up coolant and see if it leaks there.

 

[StainlessNiel]

The liners don’t have a seal that can be replace, theŷ pushed into place with a bead of sealant round the bottom. They don’t usually leak unless they’ve been disturbe but maybe after a long time...
if coolant is going straight into the oil and it runs ok, I’d say that rules out the head gasket.
and you can pull the water pump out of the side of the motor with the hose still connected, top up coolant and see if it leaks there.

That's a good idea to test pump... Thanks
So it unlikely the liner seals are broken and that leaves the pump or a cracked jacket in there somewhere unless you or anyone could suggest anything else

 

[StainlessNiel]

Tested the water pump and it perfect bar a little light rusting to the blades which is normal but it hold water no problem.
Teardown mabey tomorrow so I'll update with some pics.
Cheers

 

[DonTheMan]

That’s a pain guess it’s head gasket, liner seal or (unlikely) crack in head.
The head should come off without lifting the liners so you can pour liquid between the liners and see if it leaks away. If it doesn’t then there’s something awry with the head.
If the liners lift then they have to be done any way.

 

[RampantParanoia]

If you have the head off, don't turn the engine over without finding another way to secure the liners. They are held in place by the head and the pistons can lift the liners without it and you'll need to pull them all and reseal them.

 

[StainlessNiel]

Cheers guys I'll update as to what I find and I can always look at it like..... I wanted it powder coated anyway

 

[StainlessNiel]

If you have the head off, don't turn the engine over without finding another way to secure the liners. They are held in place by the head and the pistons can lift the liners without it and you'll need to pull them all and reseal them.

Are they a pain to seal, I'm thinking it might be worth it seein as I'm in there anyway

 

[RampantParanoia]

The sealing itself is pretty simple, clean off the old sealant with a wooden scraper etc, run a bead of Threebond 1215 round the shoulder and install the liner, let it cure. Installing the liner over the piston without trapping oil rings is very very fiddly, have a read of my "parts bin special" thread on the speed triple forum for my account of getting it wrong repeatedly.

 

[StainlessNiel]

Excellent, cheers

 

[StainlessNiel]

Tbh looking back she has got noticeably slower, I put a lot down to losing the fairing an adding 2 of the flattest headlights you can get lol (s3's)
And a puff of white smoke between high load changes (after talking with some of my wingmen) mabey it's just the gasket between the chain and liner jackets (as it still ran lovely, been garaged all winter but a 5 min tick over once a week to keep her from goin stiff) other than that it is like you say a crack or liners.
How common are the liners to go with a headgasket failure?
After a thorough read of my Haynes, the liners look a ball ache for 3 smears of gloop lol

Anyway, engines out now as of tonight, and head off tomorrow..... Fingers crossed is just a head gasket..... Any tips tricks to splitting the head without disturbing the liners??? Lol

 

[StainlessNiel]

I

 

[StainlessNiel]

That will be the culprit lol. New head time an I right in thinking the heads are the same apart from camd?

 

[PaulM]

That will be the culprit lol. New head time an I right in thinking the heads are the same apart from camd?

Sorry but what are we meant to see broken/cracked can't se much please explain.

 

[RampantParanoia]

Looks like a massive crack in the head above a combustion chamber to me? Ouch.

I believe the heads are the same for the same generation engine (i.e. Pre-2002 955) between Sprint/S3/Daytona apart from whether it's painted or not. The cams are different and you likely have stronger valve springs as well, I cba to look at the parts diagrams to confirm but I'll be bored at work tomorrow...

 

[StainlessNiel]

That's great mate thanks, tbh I'll transfer everything I can from my head to the donor.
I feel better now I can see the problem especially knowing it still ran fine and gasket was OK and liners seem fixed as they should so. Again I'll let you know how things go!!

Sorry but what are we meant to see broken/cracked can't se much please explain.

Sorry, I assumed the pic told the story...... Yes the (what I would call) core plugs as my background is cars, have been blown out with the cast still attached to them so in short.... Head was cracked... Very badly between water an oil section's... Not cylinder, so it's a head change!!

 

[RampantParanoia]

Curiosity got the better of me, the valve springs are common between 1st gen 955 S3 and Daytona heads so you don't need to worry about swapping them, just the cams.

I'm curious what made the water jacket blow out like that!

 

[RampantParanoia]

Any tips tricks to splitting the head without disturbing the liners??? Lol

Just spotted this, sorry. You don't need to worry about disturbing the liners while taking the head off. Nothing in the head removal /installation process involves turning the engine over so you're good. Just don't turn the engine over (even by hand) once the head is off.

Sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs but don't reuse your head gasket even if it looks fine.