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Hi Andy,

several of the pinions had slightly different part numbers on them - usually by one or 2 numbers. Is this another example of the parts book?
Depending whether the "slightly different part numbers" are cast or stamped, it's often the "part number" of the original casting or an intermediate stage in manufacturing between original casting and 'finished' part.

"Part numbers" were used to track work-in-progress during manufacturing. So a part that started out as, say, a casting will have a "part number" cast on to it, that was of the raw casting. Then, if the part underwent, say. machining and then hardening, another "part number" might be stamped after the machining stage. The "part number" in a parts book is only for the part ready to be used.

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #82
Hi Stuart - the numbers on the pinions are stamped - they are the same as the parts book part numbers, or one or 2 numbers different.

Unwrapped my new LF Harris 7.4:1 +40 pistons today. Tried the gudgeon (wrist) pins in the small ends - perfect.

Fitted the compression and oil control rings in turn into the tops of the bores and levelled them up with a new piston before checking the ring gaps. One or two of the compression rings are right at the minimum given in the Workshop Manual, similarly for one oil ring, but the other oil ring is 0.5mm, well within the range of 0.25 to 1.0mm. I've never had to take anything off a ring to get the gap within spec, and glad I don't have to now.

I'll have a brave pill in the morning and fit the barrels. IMHO, the worst job in rebuilding an engine. You can just hear those brittle rings protesting as they are squeezed into the bores.
 

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Discussion Starter #84
Have made progress on the piston rings, following advice provided by this forum and will update shortly. In the interim, and whilst sourcing brave pills in order to fit the barrels, I took all the black bits to the powder coaters yesterday.

Then had a look at the plastic side panels - the rectangular parts that bolt onto the airboxes and cover the air filters. Both in in good condition, a bit scratched, but otherwise intact after nearly 50 years of use. Good going for plastics I'd say.

I intended to paint these and bought a rattle can of Rustoleum, Straight to Plastic gloss black. Thoroughly cleaned off the remnant old black paint with Nitromors paint stripper, then rubbed down with wet and dry 380 grit, then 800 grit to get a nicely smooth but keyed surface. The surfaces are now fine, but show 50 years of oxidation and are far from acceptable as they are.

Tried a few light coats of paint. Total failure. There are a number of small scuffs and tiny dings which would be fairly noticeable once painted. But, these obviously must have remnant oil/grease in them. Despite the paint stripper, and thorough washing in detergent, and then wiping thoroughly with acetone, there's no way the paint will stick in numerous areas. Indeed, the paint migrates away from these areas to those presumably that are clean, to leave a strikingly mottled effect. No good at all and totally unacceptable.

I can buy new panels from LP Williams, but I'm going to try polishing, with Autosol or T-Cut and a very soft wheel on my bench polisher, and a lot of care - these things are only original once. I've stripped the panels again back to the smooth but lightly keyed surface and I'll try further abrading with say 1200 and then 2000 grit wet and dry, before resorting to the polisher.

I'll be back..............
 

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Discussion Starter #85
Progress. Significant progress.

I gapped the rings to the formula advised by Peg and Don, using a home made jig to mount the rings securely and squarely to my Dremel. I can't claim the design but isn't YouTube a wonderful resource? I used the larger cutoff wheel that's available, and lightly ground one end of each ring on the same side of the cutoff wheel. This wheel is very thin and so it's a bit flexible and even using only light pressure the disc deflected slightly such that I had to eyeball the grind square to finish off.

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Whilst I was gapping rings I ordered some brave pills and a bucket of patience off eBay, and they arrived this morning. I'd run out of excuses.

I'd already made a ply piston mounting plate:

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The barrels fitted in the normal way, I haven't any suitable ring compressors (I know, I know.......) but with a wrap of stiff plastic from a bottle to cover the rings, and a couple of large Jubilee clips on each piston, I was easily able controllably to compress the rings. I was worried about the oil ring as I've not seen that type of spring before - it's a continuous spring with a sliding joint. No worries, it all compressed very easily.

With 2 coats of WellSeal on the top face of the crankcase, I fitted a new base gasket, then applied a coal of WellSeal to the top of the gasket, and a coat to the underside of the barrels, having remembered to finally check the oil way to the exhaust tappets (yet again), and then fitted the tappets back their original positions, holding them in place with a couple of rubber bands.

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Thoroughly oiled the bores (yes, I know, there are 2 schools of thought here) and the barrels slid on with a minimum of fuss, needing only very light persuasion with a rubber mallet to get them to drop down over the base studs. Simples.

Cleaned up the excess WellSeal with acetone, and I'm now having a very unusual (for me) Sunday afternoon beer in celebration.

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For me, that's the scary job out of the way on this re-build. I now await the return of the frame parts.

NB: AutoSol and T-cut didn't do a very good job on polishing the plastic side panels, so I've ordered this:

 

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Discussion Starter #87
Thx GPZ! I have form on this so I expect to get away with only a couple of attempts.

In other news, I now have a problem; the black bits are back:

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I have, however, just lodged a query with the powder coater - a one man business in Telford, here in the UK. I want to know where he found a brand new frame with my frame number on it. That cannot be my frame. Can it? Inevitably, the photos cannot do the workmanship justice. Outstanding. £240 all the black bits done, and the 2 chrome footpegs which were peeling..

The frame was chemically stripped. The guy then warms the frame up in the oven and coats it with a zinc primer powder coat, then heats that up to bond it. While it's still warm he then coats it with the black and puts it back in the oven, so the primer is well stuck to the bare metal, and the black well stuck to the primer. I suspect this coating will see me out.....

The wooden stand I made for my T100R restoration, but I've now put it on castors - moving the Daytona around when nearing completion was a lung-busting job. Now it rolls at the touch of a finger.
 

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Discussion Starter #89
Yes, first job is to clean it out - it was a bit tight anyway. I'll use a length of wooden dowel with a strip of emery cloth at the end - when spun in a drill it acts like a flail and will remove any muck and powder coat inside the bore. Done this before - works a treat.

I'll also go over all the holes and threads at the same time, and the seats for the steering head bearings.

Quite looking forward to this build - it was a scruffy, oily bike, but now it should be fairly oil tight and shiny! I hope!
 

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Interesting read. Looks like you are getting close!!! I'm getting ready to do a similar rebuild on a motor I got with some frames and lots of boxes of parts. The motor turns over fine but when I took the drain plug out, filled it with diesel, rolled it around and dumped it out it had a small amount of metal flakes in it so I'm not taking any chances of trying to fire it up without a tear down first.
 

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Hi Andy,

Did you post earlier about reuniting frame and engine? I've re-read previous posts but can't find the reference; if it's because I'm confused (not hard), apologies in advance.

However, if I'm not losing the plot, given a bare frame, I prefer to fit the frame over the engine, rather than try and fit a heavier engine into a frame risking new powder-coat or paint - I roll the engine on to one side on some flattened cardboard boxes then lower the frame over it, fit the mounting bolts, studs, spacers, etc. finger-tight then roll the combination back upright. If the combination then needs to be moved on to any sort of bench, ime it's easier for two people to pick up a frame/engine combo. than trying to manoeuvre an engine into a frame.

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #92
Stuart - I lost the plot years ago. If you find it, send me a pm.....

I was aware of the frame-on-its-side method of re-uniting frame and engine, but never had the opportunity to try it -until now.

Laid out a thick piece of old rug on the garage floor and laid the engine on its timing side (so no big shafts sticking out), and then manipulated the frame over it. Not easy to get the main bolt (underneath the engine) through the frame so it took me an hour or so of sweating to get it all to line up. With the front bolt in place eventually resorted to holding the frame inverted and the engine moved just enough for the main bolt to slide home by hand - but without the spacers.

Having then slept on it, I loosely fitted the two rearward engine plates so everything would be more or less in the right place, turned the frame upside down again on the rug, slid out the main bolt and re-fitted it with the requisite spacers. No real problems, just a bit of thought as to the best sequence of fastener insertion to give the minimum amount of lugging about of big and heavy bits of metal. On my own, inevitably.

Was easily able to lift the re-united frame and bottom half of the engine back onto my purpose made, castor-mounted dolly.

Then fitted the newly-re-bushed and line reamed swinging arm, with a new pivot bolt and 2 new steel bobbins. Getting those (new) rubber rings that cover the joints was a bit of a faff, but once you know the trick, all good.

So, the big bits are back together, in the right place, and no chips of my new powder coat. Looks good.

And I remembered to fit the oil junction pipes before I fitted the engine into the frame. Double coats of Wellseal either side of the gasket, taking care not to get any goo in the oil ways.

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Discussion Starter #94
Ah! I understand that people like to see pictures of shiny Triumphs! So here's a few more:

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Fitted the forks (not without a struggle), and having forgotten the dust cap on top of the top bearing, I had to do it all over again. New taper roller bearings. In doing so, rounded (a bit) the hex drive hole in the new top nut (bought earlier last year) so having persuaded it out, bought 2 new Harris nuts. One went in easily, the other would not start - so re-used the good old one, which starts easily. At £11 each, you'd expect these to be good, but no. Did remember to add 190cc of 7.5W fork oil to each leg though. I didn't powder coat the yokes, because the top yoke has new rubber bushes for the 'bars, and these are the ones that hold the 'bars stiffly, and they don't flop about all over the place. Only fitted these a few months ago so didn't feel like wrecking them just to powder coat the yokes. So they are painted with a tough enamel I used on my r/c model aeroplanes; if they survive glow fuel, they'll survive anything.

Fitted the timing wheels and the crank pinion, using the marks I made when I took it to bits a few weeks ago. It was running fine, so it should be good to go. Torqued the crank nut up to 40 ft/lbs because that's the torque given for the rotor nut. Seemed OK to me. Fitted a new Morgo pump, having filled it with oil first.

Fitted the newly powder coated airboxes, just for show, and the side panels. Tried polishing the plastic air filter covers with a plastic polishing kit, but no success yet - I need a) more practice, and b) more knowledge,

Fitted the cleaned up rear mudguard. This is a bit battered and has some holes where not needed, but the battered bits don't show and it does fit at the front bottom mount and also the brace across between the tops of the shockers. It fits where it touches, but the holes are not quite right. The grab rail fits though. I've a piece of 0.5mm thick stainless sheet on the way to tidy it up a bit. This could be a repro m/g for the original T120 frame, but it looks like it'll be OK. I did have a look for a new T140 chrome rear m/g, but no-one has stock, anywhere, but I could have bought both front and rear from India, with the stays and brackets. Anyone have any experience of these? The front m/g fits, but is not correct, and I don't have the stays anyway. The Indian supplier had everything for £300. Still might buy the whole lot and have the 'correct' mudguards. What I have will be fine for now though. Any thoughts anyone?
 

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Discussion Starter #95
Well, I'll go to the foot of our stairs.... (For the non-UK readers (or even UK readers who live down south), this means "That's a surprise", or, "I'm glad about that").

I knew that the T120R frame I have (had - it's now in the shed) was the early high seat version. That meant that the airbox was sitting higher than it would on a later frame, say the T140, or indeed the correct 1973 TR7RV frame (aka a 73 T140). A corollary of that was that the single carb inlet was about 20mm lower than the oval hole in the airbox and hence the rubber boot between the two would not fit - and it was obvious to anyone who knows their Triumphs that something was not quite right.

Now I've got a proper 1973 T140 frame, made just 2 weeks before the Tiger engine, i.e. the same frame design as it would have had when left the factory, carb and airbox now meet up. What a relief!

The head's only sitting there on its studs, without a head gasket, and the inlet manifold and carb are nor screwed on, but the rubber boot lines up. I had to split the airboxes to get the boot into its hole, but it all goes together.


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This is a huge win for me - the bike will now look like it all belongs together, even if there's a numeric discrepancy of a mere 647 between frame and engine numbers. This mismatch has been on my mind for a year, and now it's sorted.

This calls for a pint in celebration at tonight's Vintage Motorcycle Club meeting!
 

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Hi Andy,

did have a look for a new T140 chrome rear m/g, but no-one has stock,
Did you try Autocycle Engineering?

could have bought both front and rear from India, with the stays and brackets.
Ime and mho, wherever you buy from, don't use the '73/'74 front 'guard mounting, '75-on ('76-on the twins?) still isn't super-brilliant, but the bracket between the sliders at least keeps 'em moving up and down together. The '73/'74 arrangement was a hasty cobble-up from the pre-'71 drum-brake mudguard mounting. after a US 650 owner won substantial damages from Triumph when his '71/'72 OIF front 'guard fractured all four mountings and went under the front tyre ...

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #97
Hi Stuart,

No - they must have been the only possible supplier I didn't try - but they don't seem to list one anyway.

This is what's fitted now (as I took delivery of the heap of bits):

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Not sure what it is, but don't think it's Triumph. However, the fork brace is fairly stiff and the forks work OK, as far as I can tell, with no twisting or bending, although my fairly sedate riding style may not test them very much.

I'd prefer to fit a front m/g and stays that look the part and I take your advice about fitting parts that assist in keeping the forks under control.

I've been able to fettle the rear m/g so it looks presentable, so I'll probably leave that as it is, but it would be nice to get the front looking like it belongs to the rest of the bike. I'll have to get a later parts book and see if I can find the later parts.
 

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Discussion Starter #99
When all else fails, RTFM. Gearbox reassembly.

I'd re-assembled the 5 spd gearbox when I had the engine on the bench on the drive side. However, I was not convinced I'd got it right - it all seemed to turn, but I couldn't really check the selections without it being in the bike and me having a chain to pull on. In particular, I was not convinced that I'd got the two selectors with the big pip that fit into the cam plate the correct way around. According to the parts book they were, but I had my doubts. So I waited until the engine was in the frame, and I'd run out of other things to do, pending the odd part arriving (like new pushrod tube wedding bands).

So. Gearbox. Should be simples. Fitted the chain to give me something to pull on to turn the box. Except after a few inches of chain pull, the box locked up. Puzzled the issue for an hour before deciding to empty the internals out again.

This time read and re-read the manual, and a light came on. Amazing what you miss. The 4th gear selector fork is not supposed to have a cutaway, which is not what the parts book shows. The PB is lying. Again.

Took me about 40 minutes, assembling in neutral as the manual says, to get everything in place and test fitted the inner cover. Would not fit -the layshaft and mainshaft were slightly too far apart, which suggested that something was not quite right, so I pulled it all out again.

Followed the manual, to the letter, yet again, and this time it took me about 4 minutes, and the inner cover slipped right on. Pulled it off again, moved the cam plate to 1st gear, and re-fitted the inner cover, this time moving the operating quadrant just a tad to get the bottom tooth engaged. Fitted a couple of the bolts and then loose fitted the outer cover and tried the shifter. Perfect. Lots of notchy clicks and changes, and lots of clattering from the internals - there's no oil in there yet. The gearbox is dead easy to assemble, once you've done it a couple of times. I use the selector shaft when I'm inserting the forks, just to help guide the forks into place, removing it once the first and then the second forks are in.

Pulled the inner cover off again, and after 2 coats of WellSeal on both surfaces, giving them 5 minutes between coats to go tacky, re-assembled, hopefully for the last time.

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And, just for completeness, you can take the oil junction pipes off with the engine in the frame, I've just done it. I didn't think that you could, but you can. One of the pipes was a bit deformed and was pressing on the underside of the gearbox, which would make it tricky to get the rubber pipe on later - so I took the junction pipes off, adjusted the bend and re-fitted.
 

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Hi Andy,

Is this the brace you have in mind?
(y)

Looks like a fairly hefty section used.
Mmmm ... as I say, it's better than the hoops at keeping both sliders moving up and down together. Regrettably not so good (but still better than the hoops) at keeping the sliders parallel with a single disc when that's working well. :rolleyes: For the latter , you need one of Norman Hyde's fork braces ...

Does it fit in addition to the stays?
Uh-uh different mudguard entirely, bolts to that "brace" with three bolts. If the 'guard is long, only uses the same 'rear' hoop (between the axle clamps and the two bolts at the bottom rear of the 'guard) as the '73/'74 'guard. If you pull up some images of '76-'78 twins, you'll see what it looks like.

Another possibility you might want to consider for looks is a T140D/TSX front 'guard and mounting?

Hth.

Regards,
 
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