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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Thx chaps for the advice, but the stator is open circuit, so rather than attempting to find the break and maybe dig out potting, and then find the rotor is weak, I'll go for a complete new alternator and have done with it.

So, single phase or 3 phase?

Goffy does a complete kit 3 phase (green box "Lucas"), as does LPW (don't know the make).

TMS and others supply the single phase 47239 RM23 stator and a new Lucas rotor all for about the same price.

I already have the green box Lucas single phase reg/rec, so I'm supposing I could simply buy a new RM23 stator and a new rotor, and use the existing (2 yo) reg/rec. I don't ride that bike at night, the pilot light is a diffused LED which I use as a DRL, and the tail light is LED, so the main current draw is the Boyer system.

Any reason not to stay single phase and re-use my existing reg/rec? Rambo says his single phase is fine, Stuart seems to suggest that the high output RM23 (47239) is fine.

Assuming that the green box Lucas reg/rec will handle the 180W output from the RM23 stator I can stay with the reg/rec I have.

Anything I've missed/misunderstood?
 

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Hi Andy, given you have the daytime lighting covered and don't ride at night then yes I think you could stay with single phase, you'd save the cost of the reg/rec assuming it's ok with the RM23. One thing I'm not sure about is whether the RM23 is just higher peak output or whether at lower revs it also puts out more than the RM21. I know one of the advantages of three phase is that output is higher across the rev range so if you're just putting about with the lights on the battery is still being charged.

I'm in a different position preferring to keep the incandescent lamps so can’t really ride with the headlight on during the day, come replacement time I’ll change everything to three phase.

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Hi Chris,

I use one of these : LDT10DWH (or a previous version) from Paul Goff:


It plugs into the pilot bulb hole and fully illuminates the whole reflector. From a distance it looks like the headlight is on.

Gives me a lot of confidence that I'll be seen by a cager.

Doing a bit more research I think my existing reg/rec is max 160W so not sure if I need a new reg/rec or not. Goffy sells a 200W reg/rec to match the high output stator.
 

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At the end of the day the choice is yours as to which way you go. Like you and many others, I ride only in daylight.
I have a DRL that I made from 4 x 22mm Eagle Eye LED's (Fleabay) mounted on a short length of aluminium angle discretely mounted under the headlight. Rather than a beam, these project over a wide area and being very bright are easily visible even in sunlight. Incidentally, I get the impression that car drivers seem react better to this type of light, possibly because it looks more like the DRL's they are becoming programmed to expect. Others may prefer a bright replacement LED headlight bulb or in your case a diffused LED pilot light. All of these options consume less or minimum current and the standard alternator is more than up to the job of keeping the battery charged.

Consequently I decided to stay with the standard 120 Watt single phase RM21 when I replaced my alternator.

Once I'd fitted it, I did some measurements with a H4 55/60 Watt headlight bulb and found that the system was quite adequate with that, probably because generally a Daytona engine tends to be turning over quite a lot faster than the bigger 650/750 bikes. Using a 35/35 Watt headlight bulb gives and even bigger margin and the performance even though it is a lower powered bulb running at full voltage is surprisingly good. Since I don't tend to ride at night (pot holes) this is rather academic though :)

The point being that if the alternator, regulator and wiring are up to scratch, the basic system is more than adequate.

754011
 

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Andy,
I went for the full 'Lucas' kit: 3 phase stator, new rotor and their reg/rect unit (all from Feked). With my 18W LED main headlight, normal tail light, LED instrument lights, plus Boyer MK3 ignition, the output just balances that load from about 1500 rpm, so almost from idle speed. It briefly shows 2 to 3 amps charging after you have been sitting at the traffic lights for a few minutes. At higher rpm it still indicates essentially zero on the ammeter and does not overcharge the Motobat MB9U battery. I feel the extra output of the 3 phase unit it gives me plenty of margin should I want to return to a 60/55 halogen headlamp bulb.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Brian,

Goffy's 3 phase kit (on "offer" for stator, rotor and reg/rec) is about the same price as his RM23 stator, rotor and reg/rec, so that complicates matters! I have an LED headlight on the Daytona which is bright but a bit useless as the lens does not provide a beam with that LED, but I rarely use it anyway, but the 3 phase would be handy if I went back to a halogen filament bulb - unlikely.

Back in the late 70s I was most days commuting into London on a 68 Daytona, which would have been a 120W RM21 stator. I had a halogen headlight on it and a Boyer, and never had a problem, but then most of the commute was on the M4 from Reading at 60-70mph, so I suppose that was sufficient to keep the battery charged when in the traffic along the Embankment and around Victoria. I must have been mad - how I survived I'll never know.

Price-wise there's nothing in it with Goffy's kit.
 

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Goffy's 3 phase kit (on "offer" for stator, rotor and reg/rec) is about the same price as his RM23 stator, rotor and reg/rec, so that complicates matters!
Maybe it makes things simpler Andy?

If you want to upgrade the single phase and three phase option costs are similar. Alternatively if you’re happy with everything as it is replace like for like and save the cost of the reg/rect (£50 inc VAT and p&p?).

I was in a similar boat two weeks after buying my bike, I discovered a fried stator. Being green and not knowing anything about the bike or who’s advice to follow on the forum I panicked and replaced it with another RM21. I wish I’d upgraded to three phase at that time, it just gives you more options in the future.

Chris
 

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LED lamps everywhere. The BSA is a single white eagle eye. The indicator warning in orange is a very bright 9watt eagle eye and one for each side. The strip of 5 white lamps cost £8 on ebay. The red ones are 3 watt and i also use them for additional brake lights on the modern bikes.
The strip light of 5 LEDs is enough to ride in the dark but probably not legal. It is connected to the pilot lamp wiring so i can still use the main filament lamp.
All very low cost parts from China.
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HI Andy, If the single phase was working fine before the problems started, new single phase will be same.

Where you'll get in a pickle is you buy single phase stator, get it installed, then find out the rectifier has also failed... I got into that pickle a while back. So that's something to think about.

In my case I got SPARX single phase stator. Before buying rotor, tested stator output with the 1 ohm 100w resistor. Was good, so reused rotor. Then testing charging system was overcharging. Then installed Lucas single phase regulator. This was lowest cost option. Bike has covered several hundred miles since to good results. Has BPF LED headlamp bulb, LED pilot bulb, LED instrument bulbs. Stop bulb is normal, turn bulbs, warning bulbs are normal. Main beam is used all day when riding.

This was lowest cost repair which brought bike to original standard. But was it best repair? As was stated you decide that. End of day, so long as the single phase meets your needs it really doesn't matter. If needs change like bright modern headlight wanted or extended city riding, you'll need the 3 phase.

The most conservative way is don't replace rotor until it proves bad after new stator installed.

Question. Why did stator go open circuit? In my case stator didn't go open circuit. It partially melted. Was still charging though. Looks like in my case failed Tympanium regulator ruined stator.

I know these decisions are not so simple. If we were rich, we'd just get the best & put it on.
Don
 

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Hi Andy,

TMS and others supply the single phase 47239 RM23 stator
Anything I've
misunderstood?
Just TMS supplies NOS 'original Lucas' RM23. "others" supply 'Wassell Lucas' "RM23"; Wassell alleges these produce "16A" but have always declined to publish the rpm at which these extra Amps are produced ...

If you're going to buy 'Wassel Lucas', imho buy their high-output 3-phase.

Goffy does a complete kit 3 phase (green box "Lucas"), as does LPW (don't know the make).
Goffy's 3 phase kit (on "offer" for stator, rotor and reg/rec) is about the same price as his RM23 stator, rotor and reg/rec
Absent "Made In England/UK" and NOS 'original Lucas', they're Wassell.

The "complete kit" (stator, rotor, reg./rec.?) will be all Wassell; personally, I wouldn't want three separate chances for Wassell's legendary 'quality control' to get me ...

You're stuck with Wassell for the rotor, (n) you have few choices for the stator :( ... but ...

think my existing reg/rec is max 160W so not sure if I need a new reg/rec or not.
... "160W" is less than stator "180W" ...?

There are plenty of non-Wassell reg./rec. ... however, I would buy one of only four:-

. Ebay Chinese knock-off Honda is by far the cheapest with a good long-time reliability record;

. if you're dubious about paying that little, A Reg 3 from Al Osborn, Podtronics 3-phase from TMS or latest-technology MOSFET from Tri-Spark;

. the Ebay Chinese knock-off Honda shows how cheaply old-tech transistor electronics are being made; for what would anyone pay more for equal lack of backup if anything goes wrong? :confused: If you're going to pay extra, pay for backup if required?

If you're still keen on a "kit", Tri-Spark does one of Wassel rotor 'n' 3-phase stator plus the MOSFET reg./rec.). LPW stock other Tri-Spark stuff, check whether they plan to/already stock any of this, to save p&p from Oz?

One thing I'm not sure about is whether the RM23 is just higher peak output or whether at lower revs it also puts out more than the RM21. I know one of the advantages of three phase is that output is higher across the rev range so if you're just putting about with the lights on the battery is still being charged.
For clarity, the quoted Lucas stator outputs are not "peaks", stator Amps output continues to rise above 5,000 rpm, just more slowly than at, say, 1000, 2000, 3000 rpm. There might've been a reason the original Lucas company chose 5,000 rpm. as a comparison point; if there was, afaik 'fraid it's lost in the mists ... :( As an aside, Norton for one seems to have quoted Amps @ 6,000 rpm., so you can find old Norton publicity quoting "11A @ 6,000 rpm." (RM21) or "15A @ 6,000 rpm." (RM23) ...

So, while the RM23 rpm-Amps curve is the same shape as the RM21's, to reach 14.5A @ 5,000 rpm. vs. 10.5A @ 5,000 rpm., the RM23's curve intersects higher Amps at the same rpm. (y)

The point being that if the alternator, regulator and wiring are up to scratch, the basic system is more than adequate
With respect, "the basic system is more than adequate" for @Shippy Terry's riding style; as you've had to fit LED with "the basic system" on your bike, clearly it isn't "adequate" for your style?

Fwiw, ime this is borne out by innumerable similar posts over many years on forums like BritBike and TOL - replace the bad-joke BPF bulb and lens/reflector with a 60/55 QH headlamp, that draws 1~1.5-ish more Amps, (y) for some people, (n) for others.

went for the full 'Lucas' kit: 3 phase stator, new rotor and their reg/rect unit (all from Feked). With my 18W LED main headlight, normal tail light, LED instrument lights, plus Boyer MK3 ignition, the output just balances that load from about 1500 rpm,
First T160 I rewired in 1982/3, I fitted the similar full 'original Lucas' "kit" from Mistral Engineering - new rotor, high-output 3-phase stator, rectifier and twin Zeners. However, my equivalent of Brian's "18W LED main headlight" was/is a 20W QH pilot bulb, because the headlamp fitted is too bright to be used in heavy traffic ... :whistle: For me, one point of the alternator upgrade was lighting that matched the T160's performance - 60/55 turned out to be inadequate, I was prepared to go to twin 60/55's, but the single 100/55 fitted next proved "adequate" ... :whistle:

Do I ride as much as I used to at night? No, but - risking labouring the point - when out on my bikes, my options in any unforeseen situation aren't restricted by a generator that was feeble fifty years ago ...

two weeks after buying my bike, I discovered a fried stator. Being green and not knowing anything about the bike or who’s advice to follow on the forum I
replaced it with another RM21. I wish I’d upgraded to three phase at that time, it just gives you more options in the future.
I was (the?) one that advised him to upgrade at the time.

I rest my case, m'lud ... ;)

Hth.

Regards,
 

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With respect, "the basic system is more than adequate" for @Shippy Terry's riding style; as you've had to fit LED with "the basic system" on your bike, clearly it isn't "adequate" for your style?
I have have no problem powering my 55/60W Q/H headlight with the RM21 arrangement and tested it enough to satisfy myself of that. It didn't surprise me, because back in 70's I changed the headlight on my '70 Bonnie to one of the early Hella Q/H headlights that used two H1 55W bulbs and had no problem with that and even ran the bike battery'less with a capacitor for many thousands of miles.

I choose to use the 4 LED DLR because I have found that car drivers clearly seem much more aware of that light, because, having a broad spread of bright light as opposed to a beam, they do not need to be directly in front to be aware of it. Also, perhaps the format of the LED's fits the pattern of light that they are becoming programmed to seeing on an oncoming vehicle.

Just to drift off topic for a moment: Also in the interests of safety, I also have twin horns fitted that sound like a car horn and the way car drivers have reacted on the occasions I have used it, it punches right through. It seems a car horn gets noticed and difference in reaction is quite noticeable.

754078


Terry
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Thx Stuart for your usual comprehensive explanation.

I went for the NOS RM23 stator from TMS (which they insist is 150W) and was made by LAP in Birmingham and no longer made. I went for a Wassel rotor from TMS (no other option) and an A Reg One from Paul Goff (Alan Osborne is cheque only).

I could have gone 3 phase from Goffy but as Stuart reasons, that's Wassel for both rotor and stator. I don't need the higher output but I have previously had poor experiences with Wassel components so played safe even if the charging capacity is a little less. In any event, it'll be better than the old 120W alternator that was on the bike.

And whilst I'm in the primary chaincase, I'll tighten the clutch springs up a bit - I get a hint of clutch slip occasionally.
 

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Andy, have you checked magnetism yet ? The other thing to look for on these old rotors is the centre separating from the outer. Put a spanner on the centre nut while holding the outer surface and it clicks. Often, a home mechanic would stake the edges to effect a repair. If you old rotor is a good magnet, compare it with the new one as an experiment to find if the Wassel is as powerful magnetically.
Hold on to the old rotor if it is a good magnet, you may need it one day.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Hi rambo, no, not taken the primary cover off yet. I'll compare old and new rotors when I get them and post on here. I know mine's a rotor from 1971 as it's stamped so it'll be interesting to compare old and new. I am a bit concerned as I think Rusty1 had a problem getting a new rotor to fit and I know the one I have does fit. Maybe a bit of reaming needed with a flap wheel. I certainly don't want it separating on me and wrecking the crank.

FWIW, I know Stuart advocates TMS but I've never used them largely as they don't use on-line ordering and their website is a little old school - you have to ring up. However, the guy I spoke to was very personable and helpful and it was a very good experience talking to them. I can see why Stuart recommends them. I'd certainly shop there again. The guy on the phone was very up front about Wassel and their QC, but as we know he could only say that for some parts that's all there is. You just have to make them work.
 

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I am a bit concerned as I think Rusty1 had a problem getting a new rotor to fit and I know the one I have does fit.
Yes I did Andy, when I returned it the vendor said he "wasn't surprised" so clearly it wasn't a one off. On the other hand LPW sell the same rotors now and say they slide on by hand so who knows? My experience was a couple of years ago so perhaps the duds have filtered through.

Chris
 

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You could always call and ask Alan Osbourn (AO Services in Thetford) if he will remagnetise your original rotor. I’m pretty sure he used to offer this service.
Regards
Peg
 
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