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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all...new to this forum, mostly because I rarely have trouble with my bikes. However, my '71 TR6R refused to shift into 4th a couple weeks ago. Nursed it home...got progressively more dodgy on the way. Clutch quit functioning altogether. So, I pulled the primary cover, pulled the kickstart/shift cover, removed the fasteners for the trans cover but stopped there to ask what's next.

Everything looks normal so far except the clutch rod appears to have been up against the little access plug. When I pulled the primary, I noticed that the rod had been abrading the backside of the plug. Other than that, everything looks perfect. I'll check true rotation and all later when I can get the bike into neutral. Right now, I need some guidance on what to do next.

What is the next step in removing the trans? Must I now remove the clutch assembly in order to release the transmission? Also, is there anything pitfalls I must avoid?

Sure appreciate any help or education at this point...this is my first trans tear down.

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I would be inclined to think your problem lies in the clutch not the gearbox (transmission) -- do you have a manual ? -- i think you need to remove the complete clutch assembly to check all is ok -- Its not unknown for the whole clutch drum to come loose on its shaft -- and yes the clutch does have to come off first before you get into the gearbox
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you. Excellent idea and I'm at that point in the tear-down right now. I'll pull the clutch assembly tomorrow and see if it's come loose. I suspect...hope...you are correct.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
BTW, I misrepresented the "clutch rod". I studied it this afternoon and it is the adjuster screw that was hard up against the plug. I made an assumption before LOOKING.
 

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Hi CAMEI, Don't take anything apart until you do some further diagnosis.

Any problems with main shaft location will allow clutch to move to left & screw hit primary cover. Other things can too, but suddenly happening is a sign of main shaft location problem. The left/right location of main shaft is determined by the right end ball bearing & nut must be tight.

Sounding like your right end main shaft nut may have come loose?? Put a wrench on it & check if it's loose. The inside tab of locking tab can wear off & allow nut to back off, even though it may look tight.

Put some fasteners back in the inner cover so it's held in place.

After checking nut tightness, correcting as needed, grab the nut with pliers & move main shaft in/out pulling/pushing strongly. The shaft should not move. You may feel a very tiny amount of play in ball bearing, but only a trace. Ball bearing should hold shaft tight so you can't move it up/down also. A failed bearing will feel loose & may feel rough while rotating shaft. But clutch must be released or plates removed to rotate shaft.

Again do not look into clutch until you are certain all is well with main shaft location.

When you say clutch failure, I'm thinking it won't release?? If main shaft is allowed to move to left, the rod can no longer lift clutch plate. Adjusting rod clearance can temporarily restore clutch release, but as shaft moves farther to left it will be lost again at next ride.

It is not uncommon on some bikes to have screw hit cover plug when all is ok with main shaft. Triumph suggested shortening screw & cutting new slot. I had to do that with my bike & a few others. On all these bikes the clutch still worked good enough to ride fine. Usually the symptom was screw wore hole through access plug & oil leaked out.

However since your bike was good & suddenly went bad, you probably have other problems. Of course you may have to shorten rod screw also after final repairs.

So the first step is verify all is well with main shaft nut & ball bearing. Very common for the nut to get loose, seen it many times. I most strongly recommend Loctite 271 red on this nut. Clean threads, nut/shaft well. Also new lock tab. Bend inner tab as needed to make sure it well notches into splines. Bend both outer tabs around nut. You'll need heat gun to soften 271 to remove later, but it will hold the nut.

Only then attempt a clutch adjustment. Is rod adjuster nut loose & screw backed out? What does your clutch lever feel like? Does the clutch cable look good at both ends? Loose floppy lever indicates either cable is breaking strands & stretching or main shaft has moved to left.

You should be able to easily select neutral on center stand. If you can't get other gears that is also possible indication of main shaft location.

Yes the clutch needs to be removed from bike before transmission can be removed. The main shaft must be removed for disassembly. It might be possible to leave it in, but not practical in my mind.

Transmission removal is easy. Going back in is very fiddly with your year. It is very doable for anybody, but lining up shift quadrant will take practice or luck. I recommend practice. About 7 tries. Seriously there is a knack to it & really practice is a sure bet. Once you master it. Apply sealant & you'll know your correct.

If... you need to take trans apart, it will be very helpful if you can select all gears before you take apart. Photo the teeth position of shift quadrant teeth in 1st, N,2,3,4th with outer cover off. Move the quadrant with screw driver & pliers as needed. It moves stiffly. You can feel it notch into gears. You can feel N & obviously wheel will turn. Don't mess up on this as there is a false neutral between the gears. You know the real neutral is 1/2 notch from 1st. The quadrant teeth you see will be all the way upwards in 1st. Notice how there is a direct relationship to teeth position compared to the horizontal pivot shaft. Photo teeth position in every gear facing straight on so you will get repeatable results on assembly. On your year the inner cam will want to rotate as you install cover. So pay attention to the gap in opening where quadrant comes through inner cover in 1st & 4th. With a little practice you'll see what I mean. With more practice you'll be able to reliably line up quadrant on assembly. That is the goal.

A lot to take in here. Not hard stuff, but a lot going on. Look at parts book view. Study shop manual & try to digest all this. It will come!
Don
 

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Yes, the leaf spring arrangement can be fun aligning. I have mastered it during 40 years of playing with a 1971 bike.
I would check that mainshaft nut as Don suggests as mine has also undone on one ride.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'm going after that clutch today to see if you both are right about it coming loose. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that is what it is. TR7...you've got me pretty intimidated about the trans. Luck is not one of my notable skills...
 

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Check the nut on the shaft on the gearchange side as part of the investigation. The one that has a tab washer under it as Don suggests.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Don, the main shaft/clutch basket moves laterally about 3/16". Why...or is this correct?
 

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Hi CAEMI, Hmmm.... Did you verify main shaft nut was tight on right end? That's the right side of machine.

Lateral meaning the direction of the shaft centerline.

You need to isolate the shaft 3/16" movement from basket. Again, grab nut very tightly with pliers & see how much just the shaft moves.

The basket is mounted on narrow roller bearings & end play is controlled by a thrust washer. Even with all new parts the basket will feel loose & wobbly. However basket looseness is unlikely to be the cause of your problem.

At this time, focus only on shaft movement itself. 3/16" is huge amount. Normal is a trace. You may not even be able to feel it. Again don't confuse basket play/wobble with shaft play.

With 3/16" movement you either have loose nut or the ball bearing in inner cover is very, very bad, like broken balls.

At this point bend the tabs back on nut & check it. You'll need to hold the main shaft during tightening. If possible put in any gear & hold back brake.

The best way is hold clutch center with a holding tool, which you probably don't yet have. Making one is best as you can put a long handle on it. Buying factory type is good too & then put handle on it.

The holding tool allows simple removal/tightening of the right main shaft nut, as well as clutch center nut & crank sprocket nut. If you work on a Triumph you'll need several special tools. You'll need a clutch hub puller to remove clutch center from shaft. DO NOT JURY RIG THIS!!! You need proper tools purchased or home made.

You MUST HAVE A TORQUE WRENCH!! Even the low cost bending beam ones are good enough for these nuts. But unless you are practiced & skilled you must have a torque wrench. Interesting all the practiced & skilled people I know always use a torque wrench. Specs are in shop manual. Lots of free online manuals. Many in our sticky section header up near top of page. You see special tools in rear of manual.

Here's the holding tools I made. Just hold clutch plates, some nuts & bolts & a piece of metal for a handle.

Here's a link to the least costly type torque wrench. Make no mistake they are just as accurate as a low cost digital or click type wrench. Obviously you need to look straight on the scale & have a smooth even pull. No jerking.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Neiko-3-8-Beam-Style-Torque-Wrench-0-800-IN-LB-90-Nm/252137453352?epid=1342333299&_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item3ab4903728:g:qckAAOSw7rdaXhyV:sc:USPSPriority!94523!US!-1&enc=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&checksum=252137453352770c1a5a177e4be1a230236999a27a0f&enc=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&checksum=252137453352770c1a5a177e4be1a230236999a27a0f

Divide inch pounds by 12 to get foot pounds.

Often is easier to pull crank sprocket & clutch at same time. Use Loctite 243 on clutch center nut & crank shaft nut. 242 will work also, but 243 is more oil resistant.

I added some photos. See the nut that comes loose. The bearing for right end is behind kicker gear. Look at it closely. Rusted, pits in balls, missing balls, shaft wiggles up/down, front/rear, in/out & you can see play in balls/race, that's bad.

The bearings I've seen with 3/16 play you'll see the problems above.

How are the grooves in clutch basket & hub? If severely worn it can cause no release or slipping depending on where plates get caught on grooves. Can post some photos?

Easy to post photos. Click go advanced> manage attachments> pop up opens . > browse> locate picture in pictures. Double click. It will then load on this site. Do 1 photo at a time. When done click SUBMIT REPLY button.

Please update your profile with location & bike type. Very helpful to us.

Don
 

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Regarding getting lucky, I never do!!! All the successful mechanics I know do the hard work. Study the manual & parts books. Look at videos on line to gain insights, understanding the videos may not be using best practices or correct procedures, but at least you can see what the parts look like in real life. Also how the maker of video did it.

Then look at your bike. Using lots of photos take it apart. Lay parts out in orderly fashion as you go & keep photos of the lay out as you go. Examine each part for obvious damage as you go. List ever part that you need like gaskets & seals as you go & any bad parts as you go. Later go back & re examine each part for hidden damage you may have overlooked. Measure shafts & bushing clearances etc.

Study the parts/gears/shift forks as you go so you can identify them. I copy pages on shop manual & make notes on it as I go. On the bench all the parts start looking alike so you need to identify them on assembly. I use baggies, marking pin, paper tags with string attached.

Removing trans is easy. You wiggle & pull parts until it basically falls apart. There are a few ways to go back together. Both work. Depends upon your preference. You'll only find that from practice. Kind of like riding a bicycle. At first you can't do it & it doesn't make sense. But with trial & error & practice it all comes together.

Other than pressing in bearings or the like, no parts require force. When you get it right they fit just fine. The 4 speed will not allow you to install gears incorrectly & install inner cover without forcing it. If you have a gap the thrust washers have fallen loose or something.

I have a "cheat sheet" I wrote of how I like to do assembly. Took a whole day of practice to learn & write it out. Easy now!! I have the sheet. It makes sense to me. Yours will make sense to you.

The only part that will really fight you is getting the outer cover on & correctly indexing the shift quadrant gear (the big curved 1/2 gear) to the little gear on cam. Again practice this with no sealant until you get a feel for it & memorize the correct procedure.

There is no magic in mechanical repairs. It's just physics. When all the parts are installed correctly it just works. The difference between you & the professional mechanic is the professional has practiced & experience. Has all the special tools needed to do the job correctly & efficiently. If they don't have that they are not yet a professional. Either still apprenticing or a no good. All the professionals I know have spent a lot of income on tools. Goes with the territory in USA anyway. Other than the most costly special tools the shop owns, we have to purchase our own tools.

At this stage you are apprenticing. Lots of hard work. I have been a professional mechanic for 50 years. I've seen lots of guys, ladies like you come through the shop. I want you to never forget this: It's not where you start out, it's how you finish up.

Some people have a handicap that prevents them from working on mechanical things & learning. I don't see that in you since you got this far. So don't stop now.

On a side note, all the Philips screws on your bike are actually Pozidrive head. Not so easy to find in many areas. Ebay is good source. You'll need #s 2,3,4 sizes. Easiest is buy the 1/4" size bits. They fit in any 1/4 bit type screw driver. A Philips drive may work, but not properly & will damage screw head. If head has not been damaged a Pozidrive is stronger than allen head.

A sprinkling of fasteners on your bike will be what are sold in USA as "whitworth" more correctly are BA. No matter the wrenches are the same size & marked both W/BA sizes. Brit bike parts sellers or Ebay good sources. So if your imperial (inch) size wrench doesn't fit right it's BA. Valve adjuster nuts are BA on your year. That's why imperial 7/16 does seem to fit right.

On a side note. If you want a simple life & no leaks assemble inner & outer covers no gaskets on you're year. Use only Loctite 518 sealant. Pay the price & save yourself some trouble. To be clear that's the right side covers. Use a Primary gasket. 518 on the round timing window gasket & the 3 screw heads works really good. 518 on the copper washers works good too. 518 on the threads of trans bolts/screws that are not blind hose will prevent leaks by threads. Wipe squeeze out with a dry cloth promptly. That's my experience & opinion. Do what you want of course!

Don
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Don, the outside cover, kickstart mechanism, shift mechanism are all removed. The bearing is visible. The shaft will displace left/right 3/16" from cycle-side to drive-side. I tried to load a photo last night but the system asks for a URL...not sure how to respond to that! But the point is the NUT is removed along with the gear, of course. It was not loose when I removed it but as I had not opened the drive side yet, it could not have displaced far anyway because the adjuster screw was hard up against the cover.

Let me add your explanations are very, very helpful. I am learning a ton - thank you. I read every word...I'm genuinely grateful that you've taken the time to help.

Also, I ordered some tools last night from the Bonneville Shop that I had...foolishly...let go when I sold a bunch of Whitworth tools I had a few years ago. I'd included my clutch tools as a "gift" because I thought I'd never get around to buying another brit bike. Duh. So, I ordered some stuff...and gaskets, of course. Should be here in a few days.

Meanwhile, since I can't remove the clutch basket without the tools, I'm on hold. I'm going to use the time to study your comments and some shop guidance I found on the web. Written by Englishmen, of course, and well-meaning if stingy with words.
 

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To add photos, after you click manage attachments the pop up window shows on screen.

Where it says upload from URL, above that on my screen I see 5 Browse boxes. The right of those boxes is "upload" button.

Click the top browse box another pop up comes up that is my Pictures. I find the photo I want, then double click it.

Takes a long time to load depending on you connection & file size of photo.

I'll get back to you on trans later, got to run.
Don
 

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Yes, the leaf spring arrangement can be fun aligning. I have mastered it during 40 years of playing with a 1971 bike.
lowbrow customs in cleveland USA is selling a reprint of a unit triumph manual that has correct procedures for assembling and indexing 4 and 5-speed gearboxes, including the odious leaf spring.




1963 through about 1973 OIF. a whole chapter on the five-speed box, and a list of which part numbers go with which iteration:



https://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/british-standard-glenn-s-triumph-two-cylinder-repair-tune-up-guide-triumph-motorcycle-shop-manual.html
 

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Hi CAEMI, I think there is a misunderstanding... With nut removed the shaft will move that much.

I want you to install the kick start gear parts & install nut. Hold clutch steady best you can or put bike in gear & hold rear wheel with brake or your hand. Tighten nut. Doesn't need full torque, but good & snug.

Now check shaft for lateral movement. It should have none. If it does something else is wrong.

Going back when bike started acting up, what did the clutch lever feel like? Did it feel odd or just normal?

Things are not adding up. I'm wondering if we're overlooking something?

Here is photo of a very worn clutch hub. The basket was the same. On this bike sometimes wouldn't release, other times would slip really bad. The sprocket very worn, but chain didn't slip. 1971 Bonnie. I made a lamp of the parts.
Don
 

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Hi, I don't have a paper clip on the page I see. I try to turn photos in my picture albums. I think it will post here correctly, but most of time this site re flips them again so still shows sideways. I finally gave up. I do find if I hold my iPhone sideways taking photo, the picture will be correctly oriented when it posts here.

Interesting how we see different items on the pages.

At least we can post photos directly, unlike Britbike site. So I'm not complaining.
Don
 

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When i first worked on the 71 T120r back in 1978, i used the Haynes manual for refitting the the gearbox covers and alignment of that leaf spring. It uses a straight edge to align two points in the inner cover, then just push the cover on. It all moves as you push it but that actually is the alignment it needs. It comes very easy now after 40 years of doing it.

I suggest you might look at the lunmad videos on youtube as his bike is a leaf spring type. John does show a gearbox strip and clutch removal etc.
 
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