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Discussion Starter #1
After several unsuccessful attempts to eliminate clutch slip on my Daytona I decided to get new friction plates and try 650 clutch springs.

I've put the clutch back together now and noticed a couple of differences:

1. The 650 springs are shorter than the 500 ones, I checked the specs and this is correct.

2. I had to screw the lever adjuster out a long way to take up the slack and there is noticeably less lever travel.

I guess this makes sense if the springs are shorter but stiffer and hope that the clutch actuating mechanism will still separate the plates enough not to bind, seemed OK cold and dry when I adjusted the pressure plate.

I'm wondering if anyone else has tried 650 springs on a 500. It occurs to me that perhaps the 500 has deeper cups for the longer springs and maybe I need to get 650 cups. I don't have a 650 parts book so can't easily check this.

Anyway didn't finish the job yesterday so didn't get to test the new setup just hope it will work OK. Weather's a bit s***e today so probably won't test it out today.
 

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If it turns out the cups are the same, you could shim the springs to the right length. I can see where too short springs would move your engagement point . Interesting.
 

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Same spring cup on 650 and 500.
Screw the spring nuts down until the stud is into the screwdriver slot,but not all the way to the end of the nut.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I Did take it out for a run and the good news is that the clutch doesn't slip.

Not so good news is it is dragging slightly, so no doubt I'll have to either screw the caps out a bit (I've got them flush with the end of the studs as the 500 manual says) or put 500 springs back in again.
 

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I have 650 springs in my 72, and I had the same result. Not alot of lever travel and clutch drags ever so slightly. You have to play around with the nut adjustment to get it right.
I did 1/4 turn at a time on each spring till I was happy with the results. Still not alot of lever travel though.
 

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This is an indication that the springs or something maybe has changed, and maybe it was not a good thing to change it, and maybe the engineers had a reason for using the spring they used. Maybe.
 

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650 or 650 Kibblewhite clutch springs on 500?

Hi All,

I wanted to ask about this as well and thought I would re-open this thread.
I've got a T100C and I'm considering putting the 650 Kibblewhite clutch springs on.
I know they're stronger than stock 650 by 20%.

Other items:
Both 500 and 650 springs are 5/8" diameter.
57-1830 (650cc) length is 1.75" (45mm)
57-1560 (500cc) length is 2" (50mm)

I'm considering stacking 1/4" of washers in the base of the cups to make up the difference,
I would just have to find the right size OD.
I haven't investigated yet what's at Lowe's or Home Depot or even Ace (more expensive).

Has anyone had success with this?
I emailed Kibblewhite but they weren't much help. They suggested I email Franz n Grubb but they only sell KW valve springs not clutch springs.
I really want a strong clutch, and I might upgrade to 9.5 compression pistons sometime soon as well.

Am I crazy to go that extra step with the Kibblewhites or should I stick with stock 650 springs?
What are your results?
I have new plates in.

Thanks!
 

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Hi,

Hmmm ... much confusion ...

springs
57-1830 (650cc) length is 1.75" (45mm)
57-1560 (500cc) length is 2" (50mm)
considering stacking 1/4" of washers in the base of the cups to make up the difference,
Free length of 57-1830 is (should be) 1.815", free length of 57-1560 is 1.975".

So the difference in free lengths is (should be) only 0.16".

considering putting the 650 Kibblewhite clutch springs on.
Why?

Were additional pressure on the plates really required, simply reducing the fitted length (by turning the "Pressure nuts" 'til more of each "Screwed pin" protrudes) increases the pressure exerted by standard C-range (unit 350/500) springs - e.g. 57-1830 (standard 650) set to a fitted length of 1.325" (Screwed pin tip flush with bottom of Pressure nut slot) gives 43 lb., 57-1560 (standard C-range) set to a fitted length of 1.185" (Screwed pin tip flush with head of Pressure nut) gives 37 lb. Moreover, while 57-1830 binds at 0.9", 57-1560 won't bind 'til 0.79" because its wire is thinner.

really want a strong clutch,
Why? If you look in the '69 C-range parts book, you'll see all the 500's were fitted with the same 9:1 compression pistons and (57-1560) clutch springs.

The C-range clutch isn't weak by any stretch of the imagination. If the clutch on your bike is slipping, maybe find out why? All stronger-than-standard springs'll do is make a normally perfectly-good clutch a literal pain.

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Hi DesertBrit, I'm with Stuart, to see if there is a reason your clutch slips. Oil type makes a huge difference.

Stacking washers is no different that screwing nuts deeper. The spring coil compression will be the same for the same effective tension.

If you wanted stronger springs that are much stiffer, you could consider 57-4644 T140 springs. 1 3/4 long 7.5 coils wire diameter .112". Screwed in dome flush with studs will give substantially more spring pressure, yet not near coil binding. At least on 650 & 750 twins. On a 650 or 750 you can go 2 more full turns deeper before coil binding. Might be worth experimenting with.

Be aware some sellers will pass off 650 springs as 57-4644. A normal 650 spring is about 1 13/16 long in real life with wire diameter of .098". So have seller email a photo & count coils.

As was pointed out stronger springs have a dramatic effect on lever effort. I've found cable life also. Can be very hard on cables with ends tending to pull off.

It has been suggested by the old posters that dragging clutch is caused by too tight spring adjustment. That is only true if you are coil binding the springs. I recommend you go deeper with springs & feel effect of clutch lever & lift. When coil bound you can feel it in lever while at same time seeing lift suddenly stop. Not all springs may coil bind at same time so plate may do a wobble as the rod pushes the last spring to coil bind. Note threads protruding to get an idea of how deep you can go. I've done a lot of experiments with this & is worth finding out. Coil binding is a quick way to pull cable ends off.

So if clutch is dragging you must verify you are getting the proper lift after you verified not spring binding.

When springs are tightened more or using stronger springs clutch often will take up closer to bar & tend to be more abrupt on take off. As the spring pressure pushes a little harder on plates sooner. Not really a problem, but I've noticed that.

7 plate clutches have more grip also. They were developed by Hyde & others for racing originally to reduce slip. They can give more grip with less spring pressure if you deem lever effort to high.

I find playing with clutches interesting & a lot of fun, but time consuming to make changes. It might be worth experimenting with 750 springs though. Luckily springs not costly.

My friend tried 500 springs with 7 plate kit. It slipped. I tried 650 springs on my Tiger 750, it slipped. So springs make a huge difference. But with 7 plate kit installed 650 springs worked good, no slip.

On an aside, the stack height of all the plates make a difference in effective spring tension. Not all new friction plates are original thickness. Wear on thrust washer behind basket also has similar effect. More wear = less spring tension with nuts flush. I've found over the years genuine Triumph original plates 6 steel + 6 friction stack up to a nominal 1.400". If I get a stack 1.375 thick, I got flush + .025" deeper. .025" is not much, but it can be felt & certainly makes a difference. You can very effectively compensate for worn, even very worn plates with this formula.

Remember since the stack height was thinner, cups start deeper. So that also effects spring binding so in the case of .025" above the spring bind is also .025" deeper.

Not suggesting you do this, but I've installed worn paper thin friction plates to good results with this formula. Obviously there is no future wear life, but it doesn't slip at the moment. Some owners have no $ at all. Allowed them to at least ride a little more.
Don
 

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It s more likely that the clutch is dragging because one or more of the plain steel plates is warped and/ or the cush drive centre hub is worn out.
 

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Hi All,

I wanted to ask about this as well and thought I would re-open this thread.
Anytime someone resurrects a thread that has a post from Mr.Pete, it makes my day. I really miss that guy around here.

Same spring cup on 650 and 500.
Screw the spring nuts down until the stud is into the screwdriver slot,but not all the way to the end of the nut.
 

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Thanks everyone for your info!
Plenty to consider.
Wobble is not an issue, nor is plate warpage as they're new plates.
Right now I've got the screws tighter in with stock springs. Binding not an issue, but lever travel is shorter and I can feel the effort. I'm dreading being out on the road and having my cable end snap, so I might order a spare to carry. OR a screw-down barrel end.
More later if anything significant happens.
Thanks again everyone!
 

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Why? If you look in the '69 C-range parts book, you'll see all the 500's were fitted with the same 9:1 compression pistons and (57-1560) clutch springs.

The C-range clutch isn't weak by any stretch of the imagination. If the clutch on your bike is slipping, maybe find out why? All stronger-than-standard springs'll do is make a normally perfectly-good clutch a literal pain.

Hth.

Regards,
So true.

Don't spend time and money on fancy aftermarket "enhancemrnts". Learn how to properly adjust your perfectly fine and adequate stock clutch. You will save so much time, money and headache in the future.
 
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