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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
2017 Street Cup
3,000 miles
TEC X-Pipe
TEC Cam
K&N Air filter with snorkel removed
Stock cans, debaffled
-1 front sprocket with 2 link shorter gold chain
Dunlop Roadsmart III's
Progressive fork springs, 15W Belray fork oil, TEC preload adjuster caps
Fox rear shocks
TEC adjustable steering damper
Tail Tidy

After the cam, we ran it on the dyno with the stock map(30071) and got the following results at the bottom of this post. A gain of 11hp and a few ft/lbs at the wheel, but stupid rich down low and alarmingly lean up top. Manufacturer claims no remapping needed with these mods, but that's not really accurate. It runs, but it doesn't run WELL.

So I installed the PCV and it goes on the dyno tomorrow. That will allow me to share the results of all the mods minus the cam, then a chart with the cam, and then the difference that a proper tune makes. Hopefully that will help some people with their decisions on these mods, or troubleshooting, etc...

To eliminate the O2 sensors, I wanted to use TuneECU to take the stock map that's already in the ECU, uncheck the O2 Sensor box and push that modified map to the bike.

I ran into the same problem as HFD1Tuner from my dealer... The proper OBD2 LX box indeed does allow me to flash the map to the ECU. But despite unchecking the O2 sensor before sending, it doesn't work.

He couldn't get it to work on a 2017 1200 Bobber this week, and I couldn't get it to work on my 2017 Street Cup. He's very familiar with tuning with TuneECU and he spoke to the guys at the TuneECU forum and simply could not get the O2 sensors to disable, and had to do what I did and make his own plug in O2 eliminators...

Now, you might ask if I am sure that it pushed the map to the bike?

Yes, because I also changed the fan temp to come on at 100C instead of 103C, and when I did the reset adaptations and let it do it's 15 minute warm up and idle process, the fans did in fact come on at 100 instead of 103.

So the 18 minute "reprogram" process via TuneECU and the bluetooth adapter worked... but there must be a bug in the software, in that on two different models, with two different LX ODB adapters, on two different Android phones, and we both got the same result. It took the flash and other changes, but didn't disable the O2 sensors. I got an engine light and error codes as soon as I unplugged them, same as HFD1Tuner did.

Luckily, based on his experience, I had a feeling that this wouldn't work and so I went and got the 1M and 330 Ohm resistors this afternoon and I wired them in and that worked just fine. I was able to do the 15 minutes of idling with no lights or error codes. Once it did its thing after the adaptives reset, it idles and revs just fine, and is ready for a proper dyno tune tomorrow with the PCV, including ignition advance changes...

If all goes well, final dyno data will be added to this thread tomorrow.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Ok folks, here is where we landed. 3 charts that spell it all out. We have one showing the HP and torque of no cam, with cam and with cam+tuning...

Some observations...

1) The cam doesn't "run fine with no remapping". Any change, be it exhaust or a cam that adds considerable power, needs a remap. You don't get one without the other, there is no free lunch.

2) The 900HT motor in the Street Cup, didn't respond to ignition advance the way that the 1200 motor does. Little to no difference on the dyno...

3) The cam makes a LOT more power up top, but the claim of "no loss down low"... myth busted. You lose both Tq and HP down low, but it's not a lot and the trade off is a whopping 14hp gain up top. That's a 28% gain!

4) With that gain, you gain not just power, but a solid 2,000rpm of extra, usable revs. The stock motor there is no benefit to rev past 5,000rpm as it stops pulling and hp and tw fall off a cliff past 5000rpm. I can now rev it right to redline, and it pulls hard straight into the rev limiter with no real dropoff at the end.

5) Due the power and extra revs, the stock gearing is taller than it needs to be. Drop it a bit, the top end speed lost is almost nothing. Your *theoretical* top speed drops if you look at gearingcommander's charts, but the reality is that you added 28% more power and 2000rpm of usable revs, so the two cancel each other out in practice. You can still hit 110mph or so, but you get there MUCH faster... And trust me, this bike... you don't want to go much faster than that, it gets squirrely...

And now, the charts!
 

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Ok folks, here is where we landed. 3 charts that spell it all out. We have one showing the HP and torque of no cam, with cam and with cam+tuning...

Some observations...

1) The cam doesn't "run fine with no remapping". Any change, be it exhaust or a cam that adds considerable power, needs a remap. You don't get one without the other, there is no free lunch.

2) The 900HT motor in the Street Cup, didn't respond to ignition advance the way that the 1200 motor does. Little to no difference on the dyno...

3) The cam makes a LOT more power up top, but the claim of "no loss down low"... myth busted. You lose both Tq and HP down low, but it's not a lot and the trade off is a whopping 14hp gain up top. That's a 28% gain!

4) With that gain, you gain not just power, but a solid 2,000rpm of extra, usable revs. The stock motor there is no benefit to rev past 5,000rpm as it stops pulling and hp and tw fall off a cliff past 5000rpm. I can now rev it right to redline, and it pulls hard straight into the rev limiter with no real dropoff at the end.

5) Due the power and extra revs, the stock gearing is taller than it needs to be. Drop it a bit, the top end speed lost is almost nothing. Your *theoretical* top speed drops if you look at gearingcommander's charts, but the reality is that you added 28% more power and 2000rpm of usable revs, so the two cancel each other out in practice. You can still hit 110mph or so, but you get there MUCH faster... And trust me, this bike... you don't want to go much faster than that, it gets squirrely...

And now, the charts!
Great results and nicely presented.
 

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Agreed, all useful info well presented, nice change to see some before and after graphs on the same Dyno and not speculation going off factory figures.
Got a couple of questions if you don't mind
Did you get chance to ride the bike on the road in between these dyno runs, noticed that after the tune The afr was dramatically improved but it didn't seem to make much difference to the power and torque on the dyno, just wondered if you rode the bike in between and it made a bigger difference to the feel and the throttle response than actual power figures?

Definitely see what you mean about the increased rev range now from the graphs, it's unusual to see power falling away so early before the red line, if anything now after the cam and tune it's only just leveled off, did you consider raising the the rev limit slightly to take advantage of that?

Did the guys have any suggestions on how you could recover some of that lost low down power or is it just the nature of the cam and there's nothing you can do?
Can you feel any of that loss low down on the road or does it just feel so much faster that you don't notice?

Any plans to download the data from the the PCV directly into your bikes ECU via TuneECU, in theory the trim tables created should create the same result as the PCV, it would be an interesting experiment.

Now if someone would just do the same with the 1200 HP engine:laugh2:
 

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Thanks for posting this, except for the cam I have done all the same mods as you so its nice to see the numbers you got before the cam.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Agreed, all useful info well presented, nice change to see some before and after graphs on the same Dyno and not speculation going off factory figures.
Got a couple of questions if you don't mind
Did you get chance to ride the bike on the road in between these dyno runs, noticed that after the tune The afr was dramatically improved but it didn't seem to make much difference to the power and torque on the dyno, just wondered if you rode the bike in between and it made a bigger difference to the feel and the throttle response than actual power figures?

Definitely see what you mean about the increased rev range now from the graphs, it's unusual to see power falling away so early before the red line, if anything now after the cam and tune it's only just leveled off, did you consider raising the the rev limit slightly to take advantage of that?

Did the guys have any suggestions on how you could recover some of that lost low down power or is it just the nature of the cam and there's nothing you can do?
Can you feel any of that loss low down on the road or does it just feel so much faster that you don't notice?

Any plans to download the data from the the PCV directly into your bikes ECU via TuneECU, in theory the trim tables created should create the same result as the PCV, it would be an interesting experiment.

Now if someone would just do the same with the 1200 HP engine:laugh2:
1) I did get to ride in between the tune, because there was a couple weeks time from when the cam went in, and I was able to get it onto the dyno. There is a difference. Not massive, but it feels smoother, crisper, and the top end feels a little more solid. It was pretty lean up there prior to the tune, and you could feel that before.

2) I have considered raising the rev limiter, but to be honest, I was thinking why bother? I see on the chart that the power is leveling off, and would likely start to dip down past it's peak, so adding a couple hundred more revs won't do a whole lot for me. I was going for improvements and optimizations here, but I am not concerned about every last drop of power... If I want to go fast, I have my primary bike that has got over 100hp more at the wheel than this one. :)

3) As for the losses down low, we thought about that and chalked it up to the nature of the cam... I respect TEC's products and the work that has gone into them... but the claim that there is a cam that gives so much power on top, but nothing lost in the low end, and that doesn't require any fueling changes? That's a bit of a stretch in my opinion. I am not a mechanic or tuner, but I have had 25 bikes now and spent countless hours in the dyno room with my tuner, and there is usually a tradeoff for something. Not always, but usually. Here, we gained 14hp up top, extended the torque curve radically, and if I lost 4hp and a few ft/lbs down low, so be it. I don't spend a lot of time under 3000rpm, so no, I don't really feel it much, and due to the bike being so much faster overall, neither will you, IMHO.

4) I would absolutely grab the tune file out of the PCV and try to convert that to modify my 30071 base map that's in the bike. Might help others with the same mods that I did, and I would like a backup in case my PCV ever ****s the bed, I could yank it off of there and simply use TuneECU to push that complete tune to the bike and not need the PCV.

Anyone want to help me with that? What file format do I need to export the PCV tune to, for TuneECU to pick it up and combine it with the stock 30071 map? I have never done that process before, actually... Anyone want to help a guy out? haha
 

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Discussion Starter #7
As promised, here are the fuel trims, ignition trims and the target AFR tables from the PCV tuning session yesterday. I also have the PVM file if someone wants to help me convert that to a proper TuneECU file based on my stock base map(30071)?
 

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Yeah, I just tried to import the map into TuneECU and it says it is not compatible...

That said, is there an easy way to simply take the above data, and toss that into my 30071 map? I wish I could open the map on a laptop, that would make this so much easier... Trying to do the math and edit all of those tables on a small phone screen is a bit tedious...

Anyone got an easier way?
 

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Thanks for the answers, agree with you and everything there.
Graphs look good but I imagine it feels even better on the road, apart from the numbers the difference between a bike that's increasing power towards the red line against one where the powers dropping off must be huge.
Regarding the rev limit I just thought with the mods now you may be more likely to run into the existing 6800 rpm limit and could possibly raise a little even if you still only rev the bike to 6800, I'm totally guessing here but I imagine mechanically the bike is capable of more revs safely but there was no point with the previous power curve.
But I understand what you saying about you're two very different bikes, at first I think I tried to ride the Thruxton like my Daytona 675 but now I've relaxed into it a bit.
I don't know much about power commanders and I'm only just learning tune ECU but the file format they use is .pvm, at least that's the format they publish on their website and you can download in to tune ECU. I presume there is a way to connect your power commander to a device and transfer files either way?

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/maplookup/powercommander_map_lookup.aspx?mk=37&mdl=3421&yr=3745&mdlyrid=21-021
can't see any Street cup tunes in the list and I'm not sure which is the nearest equivalent bike you probably know more than me.
Mostly just tunes for cat delete and air filter /slip on mods, I'll be surprised if there's anything already on there for a tec cam.

Edit- took so long writing my post that you've already replied twice in the meantime.:laugh2:
Yeah, the .pvm file is the one you need for tune ECU, when you have a map open there is an option to import power commander tables, that's when you select the .pvm file, I've done it with the files from the power commander website. Tune ECU then creates an F trim and an I trim table to adjust the standard fuelling and ignition maps.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks for the answers, agree with you and everything there.
Graphs look good but I imagine it feels even better on the road, apart from the numbers the difference between a bike that's increasing power towards the red line against one where the powers dropping off must be huge.
Regarding the rev limit I just thought with the mods now you may be more likely to run into the existing 6800 rpm limit and could possibly raise a little even if you still only rev the bike to 6800, I'm totally guessing here but I imagine mechanically the bike is capable of more revs safely but there was no point with the previous power curve.
But I understand what you saying about you're two very different bikes, at first I think I tried to ride the Thruxton like my Daytona 675 but now I've relaxed into it a bit.
I don't know much about power commanders and I'm only just learning tune ECU but the file format they use is .pvm, at least that's the format they publish on their website and you can download in to tune ECU. I presume there is a way to connect your power commander to a device and transfer files either way?

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/maplookup/powercommander_map_lookup.aspx?mk=37&mdl=3421&yr=3745&mdlyrid=21-021
can't see any Street cup tunes in the list and I'm not sure which is the nearest equivalent bike you probably know more than me.
Mostly just tunes for cat delete and air filter /slip on mods, I'll be surprised if there's anything already on there for a tec cam.
Yeah, DJ has nothing for a cam tune. I just took the one for one of the aftermarket pipes, and started with that, and then my tuner mapped the entire rev range for all throttle positions...

I opened my base map in TuneECU and increased the rev limit to 7400. It was 7200 when we tuned the bike, and 7000 was the stock value. It only lets me increase it to 7400 max. I may flash that later.

I think it won't import because it's not a 1:1 conversion... There are a different number of steps and columns and it isn't a clean merge... I plugged the laptop into the PCV and pulled and saved the PVM file and have it here if anyone wants to take a crack at this...

But I would imagine that with the tables up there, one could simply open up the map in TuneECU, and start making manual changes to all of the cells, based on the above adjustments... Might take a couple hours, but it could be done. If these newer maps worked on the Windows version, I bet I could knock this out in less than an hour...
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I am installing BlueStacks4, which will allow me to run Android apps on my Windows gaming machine. That gives me a large 42" 4k screen to work on, if this works, and I can use the mobile app, pull up the 30071 map and start editing the tables to reflect my fuel tables and see if I can construct a TuneECU map with all these changes...

Might have to wait till tomorrow, have a long ride today with friends...
 

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Ok, so I am now running an Android emulator withing Windows, logged into my Google account, but before I can download and install TuneECU it wants me to purchase it a second time... Hmmm....
 

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Yeah, I just tried to import the map into TuneECU and it says it is not compatible...

That said, is there an easy way to simply take the above data, and toss that into my 30071 map? I wish I could open the map on a laptop, that would make this so much easier... Trying to do the math and edit all of those tables on a small phone screen is a bit tedious...

Anyone got an easier way?
Yeah go back 10 years before all this Android touchscreen crap took over, probably showing my age but I'd much rather be working on a PC with a keyboard and mouse or at a push a laptop:frown2:
I've lost count of the number of times I've thought to myself that would have been so much easier on a PC, and the number of times I've nearly put my fist through the screen on the tablet>:)
I guess it's just what you're brought up with.

I'm guessing the pvm tables on the power commander website must have more mapping points, although I can't believe they would do that just to make them compatible with tune ECU as that's probably doing them out of business?
Shouldn't take too long to to modify the standard maps using the table you've got, I think the trim tables are still there but are just flat lines on the standard map, may be better to use your data to modify the trim tables and not touch the fuelling or ignition maps?
After you've entered the mapping points you've got you can put it into graphics mode and just smooth the curves for the missing mapping points.
 

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Yeah go back 10 years before all this Android touchscreen crap took over, probably showing my age but I'd much rather be working on a PC with a keyboard and mouse or at a push a laptop:frown2:
I've lost count of the number of times I've thought to myself that would have been so much easier on a PC, and the number of times I've nearly put my fist through the screen on the tablet>:)
I guess it's just what you're brought up with.

I'm guessing the pvm tables on the power commander website must have more mapping points, although I can't believe they would do that just to make them compatible with tune ECU as that's probably doing them out of business?
Shouldn't take too long to to modify the standard maps using the table you've got, I think the trim tables are still there but are just flat lines on the standard map, may be better to use your data to modify the trim tables and not touch the fuelling or ignition maps?
After you've entered the mapping points you've got you can put it into graphics mode and just smooth the curves for the missing mapping points.
Same here. My first PC was a Commodore 64, if that helps date me. haha

I am very adept at phones and am a bit of a phone and tablet techie... The issue with the mobile platform is simply screen real estate... it's tedious, even though the process itself is relatively easy.

What I wish Alain would do, is allow you to click onto a cell, and a slider opens up that you can slide up, or down, in 1% increments... when it gets to the number you want, release, have it calculate the math and save that value.

What he did was just put a desktop app onto a phone, and that's where it becomes a pain. You don't use a phone the same way you use a laptop or desktop. As it stands now, there might be a value of 10,765 in the fuel table you want. You need to reduce that by 7% to get the AFR where you want... so you have to open up a calculator and multiply 10,765 by 0.93 to get the new value, and then go in, delete what is there and put in the new one... or slide to that value... but you have to do the math for that cell, and about 200 others... It will take forever on that little screen....

If he could add a "percentage slider" that does the math and saves the value in the cell for you, this app would be amazing. THAT is how a mobile app would work... Maybe in time he will get there...
 

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Same here. My first PC was a Commodore 64, if that helps date me. haha

I am very adept at phones and am a bit of a phone and tablet techie... The issue with the mobile platform is simply screen real estate... it's tedious, even though the process itself is relatively easy.

What I wish Alain would do, is allow you to click onto a cell, and a slider opens up that you can slide up, or down, in 1% increments... when it gets to the number you want, release, have it calculate the math and save that value.

What he did was just put a desktop app onto a phone, and that's where it becomes a pain. You don't use a phone the same way you use a laptop or desktop. As it stands now, there might be a value of 10,765 in the fuel table you want. You need to reduce that by 7% to get the AFR where you want... so you have to open up a calculator and multiply 10,765 by 0.93 to get the new value, and then go in, delete what is there and put in the new one... or slide to that value... but you have to do the math for that cell, and about 200 others... It will take forever on that little screen....

If he could add a "percentage slider" that does the math and saves the value in the cell for you, this app would be amazing. THAT is how a mobile app would work... Maybe in time he will get there...
That's why I suggested using the trim tables instead of modifying the the fuel and ignition maps.
Am I right in thinking that your power commander tables are plus and minus a percentage trim, if so then I think that's the same as the trim tables so you should be able to load the data straight into the trim tables with no calculations.
You still have to fill in the missing mapping points in between but that shouldn't be a problem.
 

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That's why I suggested using the trim tables instead of modifying the the fuel and ignition maps.
Am I right in thinking that your power commander tables are plus and minus a percentage trim, if so then I think that's the same as the trim tables so you should be able to load the data straight into the trim tables with no calculations.
You still have to fill in the missing mapping points in between but that shouldn't be a problem.
In the Windows version, I'm pretty sure that TuneECU extrapolates the PCV trims to the TuneECU TP-RPM framework. The PCV can tune for both cylinders. The maps on the PC site only give fuel and ignition trims for position 1, which means it applies the same trim to both cylinders. If Squire has a PCV map with fuel for 2 cylinders, he could tell us how the trims are applied in the TuneECU map.

In Android TuneECU, there are no trim tables. There were trim tables for fuel and ignition in the Windows version so when you imported a PC table, you could see the trims before you applied them. In the Android version, you can import a PCIII or PCV map but you don't see what it's importing. Then you can apply them to the F tables only. You can check "F globally" but I don't know what that means. The L tables don't change. In the Windows version, you had the option of applying the F trims to the L tables, although this probably was not right, which is why they removed it from the Android version. I imported the Thruxton
PCV map from the PC web site into the Android TuneECU ThruxtonR map. Applying the F trims didn't change the ignition tables.
 

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In the Windows version, I'm pretty sure that TuneECU extrapolates the PCV trims to the TuneECU TP-RPM framework. The PCV can tune for both cylinders. The maps on the PC site only give fuel and ignition trims for position 1, which means it applies the same trim to both cylinders. If Squire has a PCV map with fuel for 2 cylinders, he could tell us how the trims are applied in the TuneECU map.

In Android TuneECU, there are no trim tables. There were trim tables for fuel and ignition in the Windows version so when you imported a PC table, you could see the trims before you applied them. In the Android version, you can import a PCIII or PCV map but you don't see what it's importing. Then you can apply them to the F tables only. You can check "F globally" but I don't know what that means. The L tables don't change. In the Windows version, you had the option of applying the F trims to the L tables, although this probably was not right, which is why they removed it from the Android version. I imported the Thruxton
PCV map from the PC web site into the Android TuneECU ThruxtonR map. Applying the F trims didn't change the ignition tables.
There are trim tables on my Android tune ECU, one for each map as well so for both cylinders.
They are normally just flat line at 0 but you can see the change after you import the power commander file.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
There are trim tables on my Android tune ECU, one for each map as well so for both cylinders.
They are normally just flat line at 0 but you can see the change after you import the power commander file.
The problem is that I can’t import it. Fails every time.
 

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That's weird about the import fail. My tables were aided by the power commander PVM file for my 1200HP tuning endeavors.

I'm glad that I'm taking the lead on 1200HP tuning and you are for the 900HT. I hope you're sharing this with the Facebook group for the Street Twin, Cup, Scrambler and T100.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

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That's weird about the import fail. My tables were aided by the power commander PVM file for my 1200HP tuning endeavors.

I'm glad that I'm taking the lead on 1200HP tuning and you are for the 900HT. I hope you're sharing this with the Facebook group for the Street Twin, Cup, Scrambler and T100.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Wasn’t aware of the group.
 
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