Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Since I bought my Speedy I've always had a vague notion of putting a 1050 engine into it at some point. I was idly scrolling in a Facebook group recently and came across a deal that I couldn't pass up, £350 for a 2012 engine with 20k miles, brand new gearbox under warranty less than 500 miles ago (PO loved to wheelie through gears) and... an unknown knocking noise. The PO stopped it when the knocking developed and found it cheaper to swap the engine than get the fault diagnosed. He had no idea what was wrong and had left it in the garage for months after the swap.

I figured "Why not?" and bought it, time to make room in the shed! Here it is in its new home:



I'm going to detail all the inspection and refurb work on the engine in this thread, I'll start another about getting it into my bike and link it later.

My initial thought was the cam chain may have snapped so the first thing I did after getting it situated was to take off the cam cover. I was pleased to find the cam chain was intact, but the intake cam was about 5 teeth out of alignment, oh dear.

Since the timing was out the valves may have gotten friendly with the pistons :( I took the head off, and aside from a lot of carbon everything looked very healthy. There was no sign of damage to the valves or piston crowns and the head gasket looked fine. Wahay!

I refitted the head and re-timed the engine, then turned it over by hand. No knocking or grinding was evident, and it turned over smoothly so hopefully no spun bearings. I took the opportunity to check the valve clearances, which were largely out of spec :/

I wanted to check everything related to the cam chain to see if anything had failed, as I couldn't see why the timing was out. My first stop was the cam chain tensioner to see if it had failed. It looked absolutely fine and the spring was about 69.8mm long, so not far off the 70mm I've seen quoted in various places.

Next I took the cam chain out to check if it was stretched, but I needed to get the sprag clutch off first. Triumph charge £33.14 for the correct tool, sod that! I made my own tool from a length of plate and two old exhaust studs.



With the sprag off (and looking in fine fettle) I took the cam chain out. Visually it looked unworn, as did the drive and camshaft sprockets. The service manual provides a spec for chain stretch when hung with a 13kg weight, so I had to get a little creative to measure it. I also had to wait til my partner was out, oily tools and engine bits aren't allowed in the kitchen!



It was well within spec however so again good news. I checked the cam chain rubbing blades for wear and the front one was unworn. The tensioner rubbing blade however had some wear, but the service manual doesn't give any guide for what is too much. They're £64 new so I contacted Triumph for advice, apparently this level of wear (approx. 0.8mm deep at worst) is normal and acceptable so I've kept it. I also asked about the spec for the cam chain tensioner spring and was told there isn't one, so I'm not sure where this 70mm figure came from.



So far, so good. Although... since I have the engine on the 'bench', I might as well strip the whole thing down to be sure, right?!

To split the cases you need to take off:
- All the engine covers
- Water pump
- Clutch
- Oil pump sprocket and chain

Before I started stripping all of that off, I took the took head back off and spent some time cleaning the gasket faces. I scraped off all the carbon I could from the valves and I managed to get most of the carbon off the combustion chamber and piston crowns using IPA, degreaser and an old dish brush. I forgot to take before pictures, but they look loads better! I have no idea how to get the rest off without some kind of scraper, but I don't want to risk damaging the bores or piston crowns.



I bought a clutch locking tool off ebay, removed the clutch and inspected all the plates. They were all within spec and unwarped, and the stack height was within spec as well. At this point I used a set of mole grips on the selector shaft to check all the gears engaged properly and input/output shafts turn smoothly with no grinding.

My next target was the oil pump, which again needs an expensive tool from Triumph according to the service manual. I managed to re-use my sprag tool to lock the drive sprocket and get it undone :) Once the pump was off I found a piece of gasket paper in it, not good! The rotor tip and body clearances were healthy but the pump end clearance was out of spec, and the face of the pump rotor was quite scored, further bad news :(



I started on the on the other side of the engine with the water pump and thermostat. I couldn't split the water pump but the impeller looked fine through the ports in the pump housing. I tested the thermostat and it did open in boiling water, so it went back in the head. One of the stator cover threads was toast so that got helicoiled, and the stator looks fine and checks out with a multimeter.

Removing the alternator rotor was a bit of a pain. The locking tool and puller from Triumph are… very expensive as usual. I tried a few strap wrenches from ebay but none of them would grip the rotor, so I ended up having to spend on a proper tool (Sealey VS1813 for future reference).

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
With the rotor locked, I found that puller needs an M22x1.5 right hand thread. I bought a Buzzetti BZT30684 which is the right thread but has a smaller bolt to do that actual pulling. I used a penny as a washer but this turned out to be ambitious, I used some proper washers and this didn’t help either. I don’t think this type of puller is really up to it due to the hole in the crankshaft end for the securing bolt. There just isn’t anything to push against unless you have a seriously beefy washer, at which point you can’t thread the puller in enough and start stripping threads.



I did some searching and found a tool that worked, the Motion Pro 08-0074, which is an M22x1.5 bolt. This did the job in seconds and was cheaper than the Buzzetti! It’s marketed for Kawasakis and Hondas so the OEM tools that it references might work as well.



The last things to take off before splitting the cases were then the oil filter and the sump. I had a nightmare of a job getting the filter off, I think it must have been done up with an airgun! I turned it a few degrees with the rotor locking tool (and crushed it in the process), broke a screwdriver in it then had to resort to a bigger screwdriver to get the damn thing to turn.



The sump came off easily after that thankfully, but there was more bits of gasket in there amongst other crud, and an O ring wedged in the bottom of the oil pickup, FFS.



I haven’t been able to identify the O ring, my initial thought is that it was the one that seals an oilway between the two halves of the engine cases (T3600812). I compared it with one at my local dealer and it doesn’t match so I have no idea. It’s approx. 14mm OD with a 3mm cross section, I think I’ll have to contact Triumph.

Splitting the cases was fairly simple following the service manual to undo the bolts in the right order, although it needed a bit of persuasion to actually finally split. I immediately spotted more bad news, #2 con ron has overheated pretty badly. I took the cap off and found the bearing had well and truly spun, I had to lever what was left off the journal, which wasn't in great shape either.



Luckily that's the only bearing that's spun, although the main crankshaft bearings are showing some copper as well :(

So far I think that the engine suffered oil starvation from either low oil or the oil pump being out of spec, which lead to the spun bearing and excessive wear on the other bearing shells. I'm going to see if there is enough material on the trashed journal to remain in spec after a regrind, and I need to see if the other journals are within spec. They look undamaged so I'm hopeful I won't need to replace the crankshaft. I'm also going to replace that con rod and all the main and big end bearings while I'm at it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Excellent thread. I don’t have a triple but I found it fascinating reading throughout and will follow your progress.
Alan


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Cheers, I'm hoping to have it all sorted and back together by the end of the year :) Then I need to get it in the bike!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Cheers, I'm hoping to have it all sorted and back together by the end of the year :) Then I need to get it in the bike!


Excellent, I’ll follow this thread and look forward to new instalments.
I enjoyed reading about the home made sprag clutch puller you used rather than purchase an expensive special tool from Triumph.
Good fortune,
Alan


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I've been doing some reading in the service manual and it turns out that at engine no 506366 Triumph introduced a new crankshaft with larger big end journals. The spec went from 34.984 - 35.000mm to 35.002- 35.018mm.

My engine was built after this so it should have the larger big end journals. Hopefully there is enough material to get the damaged journal reground to within the original spec. If not, I now know I can get it reground to the smaller spec and still maintain proper running clearances with the correct bearings, woo!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
I've been doing some reading in the service manual and it turns out that at engine no 506366 Triumph introduced a new crankshaft with larger big end journals. The spec went from 34.984 - 35.000mm to 35.002- 35.018mm.



My engine was built after this so it should have the larger big end journals. Hopefully there is enough material to get the damaged journal reground to within the original spec. If not, I now know I can get it reground to the smaller spec and still maintain proper running clearances with the correct bearings, woo!


That is a (sort of) stroke of luck. I’m guessing that if you had the journals ground to the smaller size you would have to change the con rods (but perhaps you were intending to anyway?).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Nope :) The con rods remain the same, as do the bearings available. You just choose different bearings to get the desired running clearance.

That said, I will be replacing the con rod for #2 cylinder as the internal bore is marked pretty badly from where the bearing span, and it has been overheated so I don't trust that it hasn't warped. I've got my eye on a set of 3 on ebay for £30, I'll be able to pick the one in best condition to use then, and have two spares for who knows what.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Nope :) The con rods remain the same, as do the bearings available. You just choose different bearings to get the desired running clearance.



That said, I will be replacing the con rod for #2 cylinder as the internal bore is marked pretty badly from where the bearing span, and it has been overheated so I don't trust that it hasn't warped. I've got my eye on a set of 3 on ebay for £30, I'll be able to pick the one in best condition to use then, and have two spares for who knows what.


I hope you never need the spares! I suspect you could sell the two left over for £30 and break even anyway.

Good thread, this will be one for the technical library.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I did consider selling them individually. From what I've seen on ebay you can either buy a set of three bare con rods or a single con rod with piston attached. Maybe there's a niche I can fill haha
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I've started the thread for getting the engine into the bike, here is the link. I can't edit the first post now (?!) so if an admin fancies putting the link into the first post in this thread it'd be much appreciated :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
A note on alternator rotor pullers I forgot to mention:

There are several types of alternator rotor used through the years on 955 and 1050 engines, but overall they use one of two types of puller. It's easy to tell which one you need before you take the retaining bolt out of the crankshaft.

If you can see an external thread on the rotor spindle then you need a totally different puller (Triumph part number T3880365). A cheaper version is the Laser 6344 which is marketed as a direct replacement for the Triumph tool. I haven't used one so can't speak for how suitable it is. Here is an example rotor, T1300506 from a 2002+ Daytona 955i:


If you can't see a thread on the outside of the spindle then you need an M22x1.5 puller as described above (Triumph part number T3880203). Here is an example rotor, T1300113 from a 2012 Speed Triple:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
346 Posts
Nicely documented thread.

I resurrected a 1050 S3 engine earlier this year with a similar problem. Bought the whole bike from the original owner who said the engine had seized.

Well it had seized but only inasmuch as it wouldn't rotate forwards but I found out you could actually turn it over backwards!

Pulled it down and found the center big end had overheated and it had spun the shell. Turning it backwards caused the shells to move back into position allowing it to rotate but turning it forwards and one shell slid under the other jamming it.

Have attached a few pictures for interest. I don't want to rain on your parade and I hope for your sake I'm wrong but Triumph nitride harden their cranks which precludes undergrinding the journals. I purchased each colour of shell and the size range really gives you nothing to undergrind to. I took a chance and used the old shoelace linishing trick on the journal which came up pretty good. The rod journal surface wasn't the best but once the shell is in it just sits there anyway.

Whatever you end up doing pay particular attention to the tightening regimen for the conrod caps especially the final angular measurement. Oh and check the bottom lip of the top crankcase just below where the liner sits. The conrod in mine had 'kissed' it slightly.

This engine has about 60,000kms on it and has now done around 8000kms since the rebuild and I don't baby it.

It always seems to be the centre rod that suffers first in 955/1050s. The 675 engine fails in the same way. As far as I can tell it's caused by a very low oil level and the bike falling down when running hard or by steep wheelies held for a long time. Owners who let the level fall that low tend not to change the oil anyway so the little oil that's in there is usually well past it's use by date.

Good luck, let us know what you end up doing with the crank.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
What a very helpful post that was by Terry Colley - this thread is turning into a gem - and I don’t even own a triple!
Alan


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Terry that’s really useful, thanks! Love the linishing trick especially.

As luck would have it I just got back from taking the crankshaft to get reground and you are right, it can’t be done. Turns out my theory on regrinding it to the older (smaller) journal spec isn’t workable. The journal is really badly damaged and there is a crack I hadn’t spotted, so it’s officially a writeoff :( Off to ebay I go to find a replacement lol. I had a quick look at my cases and there is a very slight mark where the rod must’ve hit it, not as bad as yours though which is weird since my bearing/journal is in much worse shape.

In other news my new oil pump arrived today and checks out with feeler gauges, I dropped my sump off at the powdercoaters, and I heard back from Triumph that the mystery O ring is not from anywhere in the engine. No idea where that came from then!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I found a used crankshaft with only 3500km on it in Germany. It arrived the same day as the con rods :grin2:



Now I'm just waiting on a telescopic gauge to arrive and I can sort out the bearings, then I can start re-assembling!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
This really is the thread that keeps giving, I’m looking forward to the rebuild.
Alan


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
I replaced the #2 con rod today. I managed to get it off without taking the piston out of the liner as per the service manual, but it was fiddly as hell so I ended up just taking the piston out to fit the new con rod. It took patience and a bit of wiggling but I got the piston and rod back in the liner from the top without a ring compressor, yay!

I also had the new crankshaft journals polished, and fitted new con rod bearings all round. Still waiting on the bore gauge so I can sort out the main journal bearings :cautious:

I also replaced the shifter and selector shaft oil seals since I have the engine apart. The shifter seal was easy but the selector shaft was a pain. The bolt was rusted to hell but came off nicely, then the keeper plate came apart instead of coming off.



The shaft itself wouldn't budge, I had to drive it out with a drift from the other side. Good job I had the clutch off for access. It didn't free up at all with oil or movement so I had to beat it back into place as well. I'm waiting for a new keeper plate from Fowlers, and I replaced the bolt with a stainless version which I'm doing for all of the engine fixings anyway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
... another fascinating instalment -I’m tempted to buy a water cooled triple as a project bike :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top