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Discussion Starter #1
I was looking at the map for my bike yesterday, as well as the arrow low and stock tunes. In all cases, in the ignition tables for small throttle openings (about 0-5%), the ignition table is very different with a lot less timing (around 5-10 vs 5-30) for cylinder 3. I was just wondering if anyone knew why the ignition timing was so different from the other two.

A lot of people have commented that the throttle is a bit snatchy right off idle and it seems like the significant difference in ignition timing at that point could certainly lend to that feeling. Thoughts?
 

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......for small throttle openings (about 0-5%), the ignition table is very different with a lot less timing (around 5-10 vs 5-30) for cylinder 3.
How are you seeing different timing for cylinder 3? Unlike the fuel tables the labels I1, I2 & I3 do not refer to cylinder 1, 2 & 3. The ignition tables are for different operating conditions and each table applies to all cylinders.

If you want proof then open a map for a Bonneville. It has I1, I2, I3 & I(N) - so those tables obviously don't correspond to the number of cylinders.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Well that makes some sense then. I thought ignition would be the same as the other tables...what are the operating conditions then that each is used in? Either way in that table (I3) there is a large step change in timing where the others are much smoother.

Also, if it is the case that each is used under different settings there really isnt much difference between any of them which is also why I thought it was for each cylinder.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Found this on the TuneECU site,

I1-4: the tables for ignition advance, I3-1 and I-LOF (Low Octane Fuel) for KTM690
I-Tables Daytona 675, at these model, are the I-tables depending on the selected gear.
I (1st) = 1. gear, I (2 - 5th) = 2. - 5. gear, I (6th) = 6. gear and I (N) = Neutral

So since we don't have an I4 for the S3, I assume I1 = first gear, I2 = 2nd - 5th, and I3 = 6th (though it states 6 on the site, I think this may be a typo)?

If that's the case I understand why the low RPM low throttle numbers would be a little different now. Otherwise I still don't understand the conditions each one is used under since the throttle openings are the same 0-100 for each of them.

EDIT: Sorry if I sound like a dope here, I understand the other tables and am not changing anything yet, however the ignition tables didn't make sense to me on a per-cylinder basis.
 

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For the Speed ​​Triple 1050 models is the following valid:
I1 = for cylinder 1
I2 = for cylinder 2
I3 = for cylinder 3
I (N) = for neutral

Only the models, Daytona 675, Rocket III, KTM, Benelli (Walbro ECU) are different.

The difference in the speed triple-based tables, most likely due to the different themischen loads of the individual cylinders, but surely this can only the manufacturer or a very good tuner, answer precisely.

BR, Tom
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks Tom, as usual the quick response is much appreciated. I will have to dig around a bit more to find out why there is such a difference there. Again, the clarification is much appreciated.
 

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Tom,

I have to disagree with that. Maybe this post about I Tables will refresh your memory. Scroll down to the post by Power-Tripp.
 

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champ87,

This information I have from the programmer (Alain), he should know what has programmed.

Many insights from the past no longer apply.

But I have no way to verify that really, I must me in many things, rely on the statements of the programmer.

If it would be so, as you described it, then the tables, I1 to I3, even from models 2005/2006, must be different.
See for example the tables from 20103.hex, there you will see that all the I-tables have the same value, only the table "I(N)" is different.

And yes, I know that it is in TuneEdit, allocated differently. But who is right? The programmer of TuneEdit, or the programmer of TuneECU?
A 100 percent clarification is probably only possible to, on a suitable teststand.

BR, Tom
 

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If it would be so, as you described it, then the tables, I1 to I3, even from models 2005/2006, must be different.
But they are different. At the beginning of this thread djn876 said "the ignition table is very different with a lot less timing (around 5-10 vs 5-30) for cylinder 3". He asked "....if anyone knew why the ignition timing was so different from the other two". I provided a logical explanation to that question based on the settings on my own bike.

I asked the same question when Power-Tripp tuned my bike on his dyno. I was told that I3 does not refer to cylinder 3. For my 1050 Sprint Tables I1 & I2 are the same but Table I3 is different. It is adjusted to match the different load conditions in a higher gear.
See for example the tables from 20103.hex, there you will see that all the I-tables have the same value, only the table "I(N)" is different.
But that does not prove the tables are for each cylinder. If it is so please explain why a Bonneville map also has I1, I2, I3 & I(N). I don't know much the Bonnevilles but I do know they don't have 3 cylinders.

A 100 percent clarification is probably only possible to, on a suitable teststand.
And that is exactly what Power-Tripp did. He tested on a dyno to see what effect changes to the I Tables have. OK, that TriumphTorque forum post refers to TuneEdit but the tables are part of the ECU programming so their function doesn't change when we look at them in TuneECU.

I really appreciate the communication you have with Alain to bring us excellent information on Tune ECU. In this instance I'm just not convinced. Yes, the programmer should know what he has programmed but he didn't program the ECU.

I provided a logical answer to djn876's question based on information from a very knowledgeable tuner who is well respected on this forum. Of course I haven't tested it myself so I am prepared to change my opinion but right now the explanation that I-Tables correspond to cylinders leaves several questions unanswered.
 

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So the short answer really is I need to buy a dyno :p
Well that's one option - wouldn't it be great to have a dyno at home! :D Obviously the dyno needs a good operator so maybe a better option is to visit someone who has that knowledge - and a dyno.

A lot of people have commented that the throttle is a bit snatchy right off idle and it seems like the significant difference in ignition timing at that point could certainly lend to that feeling. Thoughts?
Going back to this original question - based on my own experiences I'm guessing that the issue is not due to ignition timing. There are a number of things you can do before you start messing with I-Tables:
  • Good maintenance - clean filter, throttle bodies balanced, spark plugs in good condition, valves correctly adjusted.
  • Throttle cable play - on my Sprint I adjust the throttle cables so there is virtually no play with the ignition off (throttles completely closed). When you turn the ignition on the stepper motor opens the throttles slightly to maintain idle and that should give adequate free play.
  • Load the latest map for you bike. Try other maps to see whether they improve the snatchy throttle. In original trim my Sprint also had a very snatchy throttle and required some care rolling out of low speed 1st & 2nd gear corners. That was solved when I loaded a new map after fitting a TOR exhaust. It was as simple as that - new map; no more snatchy throttle. Unfortunately the new map created other characteristics that convinced me to have it properly mapped on a dyno.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
How about the F_L switch. If it is set very low, would the closed loop open loop transition be felt more at those very small throttle openings vs say around 20% or some other value?

I know that on my car the open loop closed loop transition is difficult to tune because the computer sort of waits a second almost like asking "are you sure you want to go fast?". Though the car has many many more tables than you can access with TuneECU.

I would love to get a dyno tune but not sure of any shops around here that work with that program vs power commander.
 

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How about the F_L switch. If it is set very low, would the closed loop open loop transition be felt more at those very small throttle openings vs say around 20% or some other value?
AFAIK the F-L Switch has no effect on when the ECM goes in or out of closed-loop. That's just an assumption on my part so I'm prepared to be corrected on that.

The F-L Switch controls the change over from L-Tables (MAP based) to F-Tables (TPS/RPM based). You could experiment with those values to see if you can reduce the snatchy throttle. On my bike Wayne changed the F-L Switch values as follows (original values in brackets):

rpm - pos
844 - 22 (22)
1215 - 22 (22)
1476 - 22 (22)
1796 - 22 (22)
2822 - 20 (22)
4036 - 3 (22)
4887 - 3 (16)
5694 - 0 (0)

As it was explained to me, reducing the numbers switches over to the F-Tables sooner. It's not a hard switch point - there is a transition area in which the ECM is reading from both tables. I can imagine that if the F-Table wasn't right then changing the values may just give more priority to a "nasty" table. No harm in experimenting though. On my bike the F-Tables were custom mapped on the dyno so no surprises. I can't say exactly what effect changing the F-L Switch values had but with all the changes combined my Sprint pulls cleanly and smoothly from low rpm in all gears.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks for the input guys I will try and review the map and see what it looks like and see what I can make of things. If any more news comes up I will keep an eye out here for it.
 

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OK, the issue really has much clarification requirements, I will Alain point out to this posts here.
That would be good if you can get more information from Alain so we can get a better understanding.

There is one more thing that is unclear in my mind. Only Rocket 3 and D675 have a gear position sensor (and maybe some newer models?). If I-Tables are for different gears then other models would have to calculate road speed and rpm to determine which I-Table to use.
 

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Hi,

Here is the response of Alain:

for all triumph Models, the I1, I2, I3... don't refer to the cylinder but to the gear position (with neutral)
ex I2 can be for gear 2 and 3 for some models, or gear 2 to 4 to other...etc..


Sorry, I have misunderstood it back then.
I have assumed that this is only applicable for the Rocket and the Daytona 675.

For further questions, please contact Alain directly.

BR, Tom
 

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Tom,

Thank you for getting that information. Originally I too thought that I1, I2, I3 referred to cylinders the same as fuel tables. Wayne corrected me when I asked why is I3 different on my Sprint.

Thanks
 

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The tables act differently for each bike model so it is not possible to give a clear answer. Wayne gave us some information in that old triumphtorque.com thread. More detailed information would be interesting but to make use of that information would require a dyno and exhaust gas analyser. Without those it would be difficutl to monitor the effect of any changes.

On some models fueling is also adjusted depending on which gear the bike is in. This applies to Rocket 3 & Daytona 675 which use a gear position sensor. I don't know if it applies to any of the newer models - Tiger 800, Explorer and Trophy.
 
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