Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner
  • Hey everyone! Enter your ride HERE to be a part of this month's Bike of the Month Challenge!

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greetings,

I have a 2 week, west coast, mega-ride coming up in June. One thing I want to correct, if possible, is an aspect of my bikes handling. Specifically, when I enter a corner, the bike (2002 Sprint ST) tips in perfectly but throughout the rest of the corner it wants to continue to fall in. This is a strong enough effect that I have to counter – counter steer, or accelerate, to maintain my line. I’m used to it, and can manage it, but find it annoying. I bought the bike used with the OEM tires on it (Bridgestone’s I think) and switched to Continental Road Attacks right away as the OEMs were done. I happened to re-read an old “Rider” road test, last night, on the 02 Sprint ST and was interested to find the tester noted the same tendency. Any opinions? Is this just the nature of the bike or could the Continentals be aggravating this? I have seen some chatter, on other forums, about this being a characteristic of the Road Attacks also.

Thanks,
Mark Reckinger
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Greetings,

I have a 2 week, west coast, mega-ride coming up in June. One thing I want to correct, if possible, is an aspect of my bikes handling. Specifically, when I enter a corner, the bike (2002 Sprint ST) tips in perfectly but throughout the rest of the corner it wants to continue to fall in. This is a strong enough effect that I have to counter – counter steer, or accelerate, to maintain my line. I’m used to it, and can manage it, but find it annoying. I bought the bike used with the OEM tires on it (Bridgestone’s I think) and switched to Continental Road Attacks right away as the OEMs were done. I happened to re-read an old “Rider” road test, last night, on the 02 Sprint ST and was interested to find the tester noted the same tendency. Any opinions? Is this just the nature of the bike or could the Continentals be aggravating this? I have seen some chatter, on other forums, about this being a characteristic of the Road Attacks also.

Thanks,
Mark Reckinger
I bought a 2005 ST in late 2007, and it had the Road Attacks on it. I've never liked how much the thing likes to lay down. After reading several tire threads, I've come to the conclusion that it's partly the tire profile and partly the sport-bike riding style...Being that high up and as heavy as I am (>350lbs), once it's tipped over, it wants to keep going. I've been playing around with trying to figure out a better way to ride (mostly city riding under 40mph is when it's a problem). My biggest problem was things like uturns and such. After looking through some vids and other forums, I started using my rear brake along with my feathered clutch to control those slow speed turns a bit better. In a turn, rear brake will stand you up (unless you hit it so hard it locks and then you go down), front brake will pull you down.

But yeah...The Road Attacks are not made for people who ride like me. Excellent sport tire...crappy touring/commute tire. When I replace, I'm thinking about going for the shinko 009 ravens as I read that they're a little harder to get to fall into the curves...I don't think that's such a bad thing. Also, they're about half the price, and my favorite tire on my old Honda VLX was a Shinko Tourmaster 230 rear. While it may not last long, their rubber is one of the gummiest substances I've ever seen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
438 Posts
I have the Conti RAs on my 2001, and hadn't noticed that. I haven't been riding it that much lately, though. There's a few little things you can check/try.

If yours is like mine, it has a squishy front end that likes to sag. This leads to more rake and less trail. Play around with the front and rear preload until you get something that's not too far off, but keeps the front from dropping and the rear from staying high.

Also at the front end, if you did something silly like raise the forks, put it back. The top of the forks should be flush with the triple tree.

Check your tire pressures. It's a common practice for people to look at the max PSI on the tire and fill it up to that. This is not only the wrong way to inflate tires, it causes your tires' profiles to be taller. The PSI you want is 4-8 psi lower than max depending on how you want the tire to feel and ride. Check the psi after you've ridden a while so the tires are warm.

Lastly, make sure it's not something you're doing as a rider. Weighting the inside peg, leaning off centerline into the corner, and pulling on the outside bar are things that a rider can do, often without realizing it, that affects a bike's handling. The rider has to be neutral before you can tell if the bike is or is not.

.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
I'm hardly a great rider but I was always taught to use the rear break when cornering, you have more control, its more stable and you can control the throttle and use a combination of rear break and throttle to push the bike through slow turns.

Also, from slow wet riding, I learnt to move my body a little bit off the seat into the corner but to push down on the foot on the outside to 'push' the bike into the floor, makes me feel more stable.

But remember, I'm a newbie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
472 Posts
Done about 1k miles on my CRA's after switching from the Bridgestones. Never had the feeling of tipping in. Had a little instability once in a blue moon, but i put that down to a greasy road.
I would buy again, jurys out tho to see how long they last.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
297 Posts
I'm hardly a great rider but I was always taught to use the rear break when cornering, you have more control, its more stable and you can control the throttle and use a combination of rear break and throttle to push the bike through slow turns.

Also, from slow wet riding, I learnt to move my body a little bit off the seat into the corner but to push down on the foot on the outside to 'push' the bike into the floor, makes me feel more stable.

But remember, I'm a newbie

negative! do not use breaks in corner!!! :mad: you only need to use break if you are coming in too hot or you need to stop or slow down to avoid something or to stand up or to low side... using rear break mid corner is low-side waiting to happen.. you must be riding a dirt bike.... anyway.. if you use front break it will make the bike want to stand up when cornering. use with caution. always set your speed before entering corners..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
329 Posts
tire profile can have a lot to do with it, some have a rounder profile while others have a more abrupt transition. That could account for an initial quicker or slower turn in, but the tendency to continue to fall in once on a line is probably more due to the bike's inherent handling characteristics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
fwiw-
my guess is it's principally due to your tires. once they're used up, try something that has a different profile, preferably more to the touring side or at least less sharp of a profile, especially the front tire, but use a matched set, don't mix brand or model. you could play with pressures a bit, but I doubt that will do it.

if you find that nearly any tires seem to still give you this effect, consider raising your front or lowering your rear, very slightly at first (eg raise your triple tree on the forks perhaps 3-5mm, if there's room. if not try a similar reduction at the rear.) this will affect turn in rate, among other things, but may alleviate the need for countersteer a bit.

once I had my RS set up perfectly, I found that Pilot Powers had that exact same effect-- tipping in but then not wanting to stop w/o continuous counter steer which I found distracting and unappreciated. they also felt less sticky and also less stable, to me.

on the other hand, I found Dunlop Qualifiers and 208's were the opposite-- nice turn in, but had to force them further in for the right amount of stick vs drive.

on balance, the Dunlops were far better-- stick, feel, less drama, etc.

then--- I started using Pirelli Diablo Corsa and Corsa III's --- perfect!!!

all this with exactly the same suspension set up-- so, tires do make the difference oftentimes.

fyi-- I learned all this after having set up my suspension w/RT kit in the forks and a 5mm drop of my triple tree (in part that was to offset the oem Bridgestones which were sh*t). later, when I'd reached what I felt was the limit of the oem shock to keep up, I installed a Penske 8930 double clicker on the rear. that expanded my envelope of excellent ride and handling w/no difference in how the tires worked, except that the Pirellis now work even better ( maybe I should say that I can now work them even better.)

at this point, by going step by step, being patient and keeping close track of things, I've been able to "sort" my bike to the point that my confidence is far higher than ever before. I'm not sure I could take it much further without spending large sums for Ohlin stuff, exotic wheels, etc.

down side of all this is that I can't help but ride on the sport side all the time and so I tend to wear out these admittedly sport/track oriented tires rather quickly. but, the principal should apply for you at least. if you prefer better wear, just look for something that handles right, then see what you can do to maximize mileage.

I'm afraid its all just a game of constant seeking and adjusting until it feels just right-- kinda like... you know! On the other hand, by sticking w/my partner for seven years now, we've got it down to the dogs bollocks--- just can't understand why some folks want a new partner, er bike, every year-- I think having a perfectly sorted bike is far better than a clean new one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
388 Posts
I had Continental Road Attacks fitted to my bandit 600, and based on what your saying i'd say its the tyres. On the bandit the bike dropped into corners very quick, initially to the point i thought the front was tucking.

It never was and i got used to it, i think its the profile of the front tyre, it's quite "pointy" compared to bridgestones etc.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
24,397 Posts
Oh dear, please put your ears on

I am reading some not so good riding technique advice here and some very incorrect statements.:(

If you are a novice rider please do not give riding advice in the forum unless you have advanced training at least, or you are a very experienced rider yourself.

This is a www forum and naturally you can have an opinion, but some of the things in this thread about how to ride a motorcycle are just plain wrong.

My following comments are based on over 33 years of sports motorcycle riding in all weathers including ice and snow and over 40 degrees celsius. They are also based on doing some very dumb things when I was young and crashing a lot.


1) RSRAT is correct about "falling into a corner" this is more to do with tyre profile than anything else. If you want to learn about it read the tyre sticky from start to finish in the "Maintenance tips and tricks sub forum".

2) When riding in the wet I would be EXTREMELY careful with using my rear brake in a corner unless you are a very experienced rider and very familiar with rear trail braking technique other wise YOU WILL CRASH.

3) It is not always wrong to brake in a corner that is also an incorrect statement. "using a rear brake in a corner is wrong" is also an incorrect statement.
Very experienced riders and racers brake deep into corners right up to the apex all the time it is a riding technique.

How ever using a rear brake in any corner requires skill and experience and can end badly if you over brake or are on a poor surface. I would not recommend it to a newer rider.

4) You do not move about any more than necessary in the wet, you do not move your weight off the seat in a corner in the wet.

What you do, do is be very smooth at everything in the wet, smooth brakes, smooth throttle, and do not move about much or do anything you do not have to to unsettle the suspension and hence give more opportunity for loss of tyre grip.

I am not apologising if anyone is offended here.

Motorcycling is a lot of fun and has always been my favourite past time for as long as I can remember, it can also be very bloody dangerous if you do the wrong stuff!

DaveM:cool:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
619 Posts
My problem with the bike falling into corners showed up when two up fully loaded. The spring rates were just not up to the job and the geometry of the Bike was wrong (nose high). No amount of preload tweeking would compensate, due to combined weights and panniers. A harder spring made all the difference. Best to get the front reworked at the same time, to keep things on an even keel. Check out the video elsewhere on the forum on differing set ups for various weights, it makes all the difference.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,047 Posts
Ditto wot Dave said.:bighand:

You could pay $20.00 for a bike riding technique book and not get better advice than what is in his post. New and experienced riders are well advised to consider what he has offered.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,160 Posts
+1 on DaveM's post.

"Falling in" in a corner can be caused by several things, assuming you're going fast enough. The first to check is the bike set-up and the condition of the tires.

A very good book for riding technique (among several others) is 'Total Control' by Lee Parks. Very applicable to street riding, and very readable. You can find it on Amazon, or at Lee's site, www.leeparksdesign.com.

I'm also very fond of the DeerTour gloves he offers.

HTH!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
297 Posts
Dave,

I never said its wrong. I just said he should not be doing it. He obviously has no business doing it. :eek: No offense taken! I rarely have to use my brakes mid corner. It's usually do dodge crap on the road or avoid idiots running over yellow lines. :cool:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
165 Posts
+1 DaveM, your advice has never steered me in the wrong direction.

The conti RA's do fall in slightly quicker, especially if you are coming from old, square'd off slipstones. I've never had an instance where it continued to fall in, or maybe I just went with it and accelerated through the corner without thinking twice. :) That being said, the conti RA's are very sensitive to pressure changes, and I think the best results have come from running them at a slightly higher pressure than other brands (I forget exactly what conti reccomends, 36/42 maybe, ruscook made a few comments on this in the tyre sticky)

Maybe, prior to entry, you could try to shift your cheek a bit to the side of the seat in which you are turning, to allow the bike to turn the same without leaning as much, but this shouldn't really be necessary at a somewhat relaxed pace.

I got decent mileage out of my last set, ~7700 miles, and they had plenty left, but the front was starting to cup and I couldn't pass up a great deal on I got on a set of PP 2CT's.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
24,397 Posts
Dave,

I never said its wrong. I just said he should not be doing it. He obviously has no business doing it. :eek: No offense taken! I rarely have to use my brakes mid corner. It's usually do dodge crap on the road or avoid idiots running over yellow lines. :cool:
alpha this is what you said:

"negative! do not use breaks in corner!!! :mad: you only need to use break if you are coming in too hot or you need to stop or slow down to avoid something or to stand up or to low side... using rear break mid corner is low-side waiting to happen.. you must be riding a dirt bike.... anyway.. if you use front break it will make the bike want to stand up when cornering. use with caution. always set your speed before entering corners.." Alpha's first post quoted in green and red.

That is not correct especially what is in red.
There are some correct statements in there but as a whole and in context it is not correct what you said.

I will post up some good books for our newer to motorcycle riders in a separate thread.

DaveM:cool:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,047 Posts
Dave,

I never said its wrong. I just said he should not be doing it. He obviously has no business doing it. :eek: No offense taken! I rarely have to use my brakes mid corner. It's usually do dodge crap on the road or avoid idiots running over yellow lines. :cool:
I'm no way near being a good rider, and always ready to learn technique, but I'll be damned if I understand how you dodge poo on the road, and avoid idiots coming at you in your lane, by putting the brakes on? I think you would do better to steer around the offenders rather than slowing down and giving them an easier target? As for the poo, I've never seen a pile that I wanted to stop for.:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,756 Posts
Okay, from what I've read..., countersteering is what tips a bike over, regardless of anything else. A bike doesn't turn without it--at all. Again, from what I've read.:D So yes, certain tire profiles and bike geometries will respond differently to rider input, but the solution will always be the same--push the outside bar back towards the direction of the corner and the bike will come back up if you're over too far. When we ride, we do this almost unconsciously but we do do it. So back to the OP saying you have to countersteer to get the bike back up, you're actually just countersteering a bit less to bring the bike back towards upright.

That being said, if you think the Contys fall-in too easily, try another brand next time or right away if you have the dinero.

And Dave, if this is wrong too, I stand corrected in advance.:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
297 Posts
I'm no way near being a good rider, and always ready to learn technique, but I'll be damned if I understand how you dodge poo on the road, and avoid idiots coming at you in your lane, by putting the brakes on? I think you would do better to steer around the offenders rather than slowing down and giving them an easier target? As for the poo, I've never seen a pile that I wanted to stop for.:D
:D it's "majik"..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
G'day all,

Started noticing the same issue on my 08 model.

I Read this thread and the "Hoops, hides, skins or just plain tires" thread

So, got the impression the BT020 are not a good tyre and I've heard the same elsewhere....thought about waiting, as they still have a few thousand km of tread left...but then, bugger it.

Changed over today and put on the Michelin Pilot Road II. Sounds like a good all round tyre for a good all round bike.

Cheers.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top