[pennafxu]

Acquired this today. This has always been a bucket list bike for me. I am so happy as this is a one owner bike. It has an electronic ignition Boyer MKIII, 9:1 compression with larger heads, and a bunch of parts and manuals. I just want to enjoy riding it this summer, and maybe will restore it down the road. This is a survivor, is there any worth in just leaving it be without any restoration? It won't currently start due to current electrical gremlins that I am working through. I am currently scouring the forum for help. This was at the PO's barn...

Whisky

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Whisky,

Firstly, welcome to the Forum.

is there any worth in just leaving it be without any restoration?

Once it runs reliably, up to you how much additional farkling you want to do.

However, has the bike been unused for any length of time? If it has, depending on that length of time:-

. Change the tyres and tubes if more than five years old by the date code on the sidewalls.

. Strip and clean both brakes, renew all master cylinder and caliper seals; change rubber hoses if more than ten years old (or if age unknown?), new fluid.

. Replace oil in engine (frame spine and primary chaincase), gearbox and forks.

. If more than ~3 months, follow most of the engine pre-start lubrication advice in Waking The Sleeping Beast (just put a bit less oil in the crankcase).

current electrical gremlins that I am working through.

Be aware the Haynes manual in your photo. is great ... as a doorstop, under the short leg of wobbly furniture, firelighting ...

The Triumph workshop manual is both free to read online and available from 'Meriden Triumph' (i.e. not Hinckley-only) spares dealers.

BUT (and it's a J-Lo) your middle photo. suggests you have a T140E (Amal Mk.2 carb.in the photo), clarify with the engine and frame VIN.

If you do have a '78 T140E, be aware there isn't a published wiring diagram for them anywhere and some of their wiring is different, it is not the same as any wiring diagrams in either the Haynes or any Triumph manual so don't become confused by them. Fwiw, I'm familiar with both T140E and T140V wiring.

Also use the Forum Advanced Search to find threads started by @Lake Marine, he's recently got another '78 T140E going.

electronic ignition Boyer MKIII

Firstly, do you have a multi-meter? If not beg, steal or borrow a good one. Good meter's as essential to working on electrics as good wrenches are for working on nuts and bolts. If you have to buy, a "good one" has a well-calibrated meter and a cast-iron guarantee it has EMI (electro-magnetic interference) protection.

Secondly, does the bike have a 'good' battery. Doesn't have to be new but, whether it is or it isn't, your good meter must display:-

. 12.6 Volts when each meter lead is connected to a different battery terminal and everything on the bike is turned off;

. no less than 12.5V when only the ignition is turned on.

Good meter, any less and the battery is not 'good' (usually) or there is a major power drain somewhere in the ignition circuit.

Next, unless the previous owner can confirm he (she?) never screwed with electrics "ground", wise to use the meter to confirm it. Original electrics were 'positive ground' - the battery +ve terminal is connected to the engine and cycle parts - but PO do change 'em ...:-

. meter still set to Volts, put the end of one meter lead on bare metal, other meter lead on first one battery terminal then the other;

. meter lead on one battery terminal, meter should display zero Volts, meter lead on the other battery terminal, meter should display 12+ Volts;

. the battery terminal where the meter displays zero Volts is "ground";

. if the meter displays zero when the lead end is on both terminals, move the other lead end to a different bit of bare metal ...

Assuming standard 'positive ground', any Triumph wiring diagram you look at (Haynes or Triumph manuals), the ignition circuit:-

. Starts with the Brown/Blue ("NU") wire from the battery -ve terminal, through the fuse (not shown?), past "RECTIFIER" and "ZENER" to "IGNITION SW.".

. Switched output from the Ignition Switch are the plain White wires, one goes to "ENGINE STOP" - as standard, Red lever in the switch cluster by the front brake master cylinder on the handlebars.

. Switched output from the Engine Stop switch is the White/Yellow wire. Wiring diagrams will show this going to the -ve terminal of each ignition coil ... but that's where the wiring changes for the EI ...

Boyer-Bransden fitting instructions applying; however, depending how good you are with electrics, the wiring diagram isn't brilliant (Bransden has been selling his EI since the early 1970's, when most Triumphs didn't have engine stop switches, he's just never updated his diagrams to reflect the changed market ).

If your bike's electrics are still standard 'positive ground':-

. As standard, the Mk.3 Box's plain White wire should be connected to one of the original ignition coil White/Yellow wires; the terminal on the other original ignition coil White/Yellow wire should be insulated - note this can be useful for trouble-shooting so allow access to it when necessary.

. However, I advise against two connections shown on the Boyer-Bransden wiring diagram:-

.. The Box Red wire should be connected directly to the battery +ve terminal, not to an ignition coil terminal.

.. The coil terminal should be connected to existing harness Red wires at a snap connector, not to "POSITIVE FRAME EARTH".

Hth.

Regards,

 

[pennafxu]

Hi Whisky,

Firstly, welcome to the Forum.


Once it runs reliably, up to you how much additional farkling you want to do.

However, has the bike been unused for any length of time?


Be aware the Haynes manual in your photo. is great ... as a doorstop, under the short leg of wobbly furniture, firelighting ...

The Triumph workshop manual is both free to read online and available from 'Meriden Triumph' (i.e. not Hinckley-only) spares dealers.

BUT (and it's a J-Lo) your middle photo. suggests you have a T140E (Amal Mk.2 carb.in the photo), looking at the engine and frame number will confirm.

If you do have a '78 T140E, be aware there isn't a published wiring diagram for them anywhere and some of their wiring is different, it is not the same as any wiring diagrams in either the Haynes or any Triumph manual so don't become confused by them. Fwiw, I'm familiar with both T140E and T140V wiring.

Also use the Forum Advanced Search to find threads started by @Lake Marine, he's recently got another '78 T140E going.


Firstly, do you have a multi-meter? If not beg, steal or borrow a good one. Good meter's as essential to working on electrics as good wrenches are for working on nuts and bolts. If you have to buy, a "good one" has a well-calibrated meter and a cast-iron guarantee it has EMI (electro-magnetic interference) protection.

Secondly, does the bike have a 'good' battery. Doesn't have to be new but, whether it is or it isn't, your good meter must display:-

. 12.6 Volts when each meter lead is connected to a different battery terminal and everything on the bike is turned off;

. no less than 12.5V when only the ignition is turned on.

Good meter, any less and the battery is not 'good' (usually) or there is a major power drain somewhere in the ignition circuit.

Next, unless the previous owner can confirm he (she?) never screwed with electrics "ground", wise to use the meter to confirm it. Original electrics were 'positive ground' - the battery +ve terminal is connected to the engine and cycle parts - but PO do change 'em ...:-

. meter still set to Volts, put the end of one meter lead on bare metal, other meter lead on first one battery terminal then the other;

. meter lead on one battery terminal, meter should display zero Volts, meter lead on the other battery terminal, meter should display 12+ Volts;

. the battery terminal where the meter displays zero Volts is "ground";

. if the meter displays zero when the lead end is on both terminals, move the other lead end to a different bit of bare metal ...

Assuming standard 'positive ground', any Triumph wiring diagram you look at (Haynes or Triumph manuals), the ignition circuit:-

. Starts with the Brown/Blue ("NU") wire from the battery -ve terminal, through the fuse (not shown?), past "RECTIFIER" and "ZENER" to "IGNITION SW.".

. Switched output from the Ignition Switch are the plain White wires, one goes to "ENGINE STOP" - as standard, Red lever in the switch cluster by the front brake master cylinder on the handlebars.

. Switched output from the Engine Stop switch is the White/Yellow wire. Wiring diagrams will show this going to the -ve terminal of each ignition coil ... but that's where the wiring changes for the EI ...

Boyer-Bransden fitting instructions applying; however, depending how good you are with electrics, the wiring diagram isn't brilliant (Bransden has been selling his EI since the early 1970's, when most Triumphs didn't have engine stop switches, he's just never updated his diagrams to reflect the changed market ).

If your bike's electrics are still standard 'positive ground':-

. As standard, the Mk.3 Box's plain White wire should be connected to one of the original ignition coil White/Yellow wires; the terminal on the other original ignition coil White/Yellow wire should be insulated - note this can be useful for trouble-shooting so allow access to it when necessary.

. However, I advise against two connections shown on the Boyer-Bransden wiring diagram:-

.. The Box Red wire should be connected directly to the battery +ve terminal, not to an ignition coil terminal.

.. The coil terminal should be connected to existing harness Red wires at a snap connector, not to "POSITIVE FRAME EARTH".

Hth.

Regards,

Stuart,
Thank you for the lengthy reply! I'm not bad with electrics and have a multimeter and will follow your advice. I can't get to it until this weekend so I'm literally dying with anticipation. The PO just threw the manual in with the bike. It has 2 sets of carbs, the originals are on a shelf. I will check VIN and get back to you on that. As for this pos ground funny business, I can't seem to wrap my head around it. Why? Also I need to see if anything was messed with with the EI install. It last ran last November. I wan't to just go through it sequentially and get it road ready. Is it better off me getting a new loom rather than piddling around with old wiring?

Whisky

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Whisky,

not bad with electrics
pos ground
can't seem to wrap my head around it.

Ignore it completely. The electrics are DC, DC is always from battery -ve and to battery +ve, "ground" makes not a blind bit of difference to that.

In addition and except for the turn signals, every electrical component has a non-Red wire from battery -ve to it and a Red wire from it back to battery +ve. As standard, turn signals have the non-Red wire from battery -ve, wise to add Red wires (from their mountings) to existing harness Red wires, eliminates a lot of potential weirdness.

wan't to just go through it sequentially and get it road ready
better off me getting a new loom rather than piddling around with old wiring?

Mmmm ...

The 'best' harnesses in the US are from British Wiring, who are supplied by a British company (if you read @Lake Marine's threads, you'll see he bought a 'Wassell Lucas' harness ... ).

However, note 'best' in inverted commas ... snag with any of the off-the-shelf harnesses is they're currently copies (BW's are exact) of what the original Lucas company supplied to Meriden. The downside of that is:-

. '71-on, 'original Lucas' incorporated some dubious changes just for BSA's accountants and, although Meriden was out from under BSA's thumb within a few years, those changes were never reversed, even though even retail, they save literally pennies.

. If you want to reverse the '71-on changes, and/or take advantage of any electrical advances in the last half-century - EI, more powerful alternator, electronic regulator/rectifier, etc. - you have to modify any off-the-shelf harness.

. Given you can buy wire in the correct original Lucas colours, correct terminals, etc., to paraphrase the punchline in a British joke, "If I was going there [a 21st-century harness], I wouldn't start from here [an off-the-shelf harness]".

If the PO hasn't mutilated the harness too badly, see British Wiring sells terminals and wire to reverse much mutilation, them and the crimping tools will be useful when you do want to build a good harness?

Hth.

Regards,

 

[pennafxu]

Hi Whisky,

Ignore it completely. The electrics are DC, DC is always from battery -ve and to battery +ve, "ground" makes not a blind bit of difference to that.

In addition and except for the turn signals, every electrical component has a non-Red wire from battery -ve to it and a Red wire from it back to battery +ve. As standard, turn signals have the non-Red wire from battery -ve, wise to add Red wires (from their mountings) to existing harness Red wires, eliminates a lot of potential weirdness.


Mmmm ...

The 'best' harnesses in the US are from British Wiring, who are supplied by a British company (if you read @Lake Marine's threads, you'll see he bought a 'Wassell Lucas' harness ... ).

However, note 'best' in inverted commas ... snag with any of the off-the-shelf harnesses is they're currently copies (BW's are exact) of what the original Lucas company supplied to Meriden. The downside of that is:-

. '71-on, 'original Lucas' incorporated some dubious changes just for BSA's accountants and, although Meriden was out from under BSA's thumb within a few years, those changes were never reversed, even though even retail, they save literally pennies.

. If you want to reverse the '71-on changes, and/or take advantage of any electrical advances in the last half-century - EI, more powerful alternator, electronic regulator/rectifier, etc. - you have to modify any off-the-shelf harness.

. Given you can buy wire in the correct original Lucas colours, correct terminals, etc., to paraphrase the punchline in a British joke, "If I was going there [a 21st-century harness], I wouldn't start from here [an off-the-shelf harness]".

If the PO hasn't mutilated the harness too badly, see British Wiring sells terminals and wire to reverse much mutilation, them and the crimping tools will be useful when you do want to build a good harness?

Hth.

Regards,

Thanks again for the reply… it was always stored indoors and didn’t “look” too ratty. Piddling it is then! I come from the world of old Indians and new Harleys, so all of this is mind boggling. It’s like trying to digest a whale omelette in one sitting.

Whisky

 

[alex the biker]

Not sure this is a survivor? Petrol tank? Few other bits...

 

[pennafxu]

Not sure this is a survivor? Petrol tank? Few other bits...

There are a ton of other bits that I will post this weekend...

 

[pennafxu]

Can you please elaborate? I am new to the triumph world. It’s a one owner. Is any of this period type stuff?

Not sure this is a survivor? Petrol tank? Few other bits...

 

[alex the biker]

Can you please elaborate? I am new to the triumph world.

I'm new too. Fairly. So not a wise old one.

My understanding of a survivor is a bike intact, untouched, not renovated, complete. Survivor also suggests battered, it's survived neglect, to me.

A wise old one might correct me.

If survivor includes a bike with significant non-original parts, then all our vintage Triumphs are survivors. Which they are, really. So maybe it's all semantics.

I had an immaculate, unscratched, uncorroded 70s Bonneville, every single part original except one brake. I wouldn't call that a survivor. Someone loved and mollycoddled it.

 

[pennafxu]

I'm new too. Fairly. So not a wise old one.

My understanding of a survivor is a bike intact, untouched, not renovated, complete. Survivor also suggests battered, it's survived neglect, to me.

A wise old one might correct me.

If survivor includes a bike with significant non-original parts, then all our vintage Triumphs are survivors. Which they are, really. So maybe it's all semantics.

I had an immaculate, unscratched, uncorroded 70s Bonneville, every single part original except one brake. I wouldn't call that a survivor. Someone loved and mollycoddled it.

My understanding of a survivor is a bike that was never restored and is in original patina as if the day it left the factory and somehow survived. I have all the original parts to this bike to switch it back to an un-molested state. I purchased it from an 83 yo man who purchased it new and as you can see it's sitting in his barn So it must be a barn find... So, all in all, I'm happy either way. Various different circles have different vernacular. The Indian Motocycle community is very, very particular about this. You cannot slap on re-pop skirted fenders on a 39' chief and call it "all-original," survivor." Be that as it may what about the tank looks non original to you?

Whisky

In my opinion your coddled bike would be considered a survivor in most circles... if only consumables were replaced... i.e what percentage of the bike is still original from leaving the factory.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Whisky,

tank looks non original

Yep, '71 or '72, '71 because that's the earliest OIF ("oil in frame"), '72 because Triumph's tank supplier changed the press tools in 1973 (afaict), '73-on tanks don't have a central front-to-back seam so nowhere for the chromed trim in your photos.

survivor
un-molested
barn find
Indian Motocycle community is very, very particular

Mmmm ... this Forum's about Triumph (sometimes stretching to other British) motorcycles before the Hinckleys, rather than different definitions of English words ...

Hth.

Regards,

 

[alex the biker]

I purchased it from an 83 yo man who purchased it new and as you can see it's sitting in his barn So it must be a barn find... So, all in all, I'm happy either way.

what about the tank looks non original to you?



In my opinion your coddled bike would be considered a survivor in most circles... if only consumables were replaced... i.e what percentage of the bike is still original from leaving the factory.

78 Bonneville tank didn't have a parcel rack. Few other things aren't standard. Carbs, exhaust headers. Looks a great bike though.

My '78 T140E is now dead. Killed by insurance firm that wrote frame off that literally only had paint missing after an, erm, mishap. Have the VIN-stamped headstock still, not allowed to throw it away. Has to be scrapped through official firm. So, sitting on my garden wall. 🌻

 

[pennafxu]

Hi Whisky,

Yep, '71 or '72, '71 because that's the earliest OIF ("oil in frame"), '72 because Triumph's tank supplier changed the press tools in 1973 (afaict), '73-on tanks don't have a central front-to-back seam so nowhere for the chromed trim in your photos.


Mmmm ... this Forum's about Triumph (sometimes stretching to other British) motorcycles before the Hinckleys, rather than different definitions of English words ...

Hth.

Regards,

Very good to know! Will sift through the other tanks he gave me and have ya'll chime in at that time...

 

[pennafxu]

78 Bonneville tank didn't have a parcel rack. Few other things aren't standard. Carbs, exhaust headers. Looks a great bike though.

My '78 T140E is now dead. Killed by insurance firm that wrote frame off that literally only had paint missing after an, erm, mishap. Have the VIN-stamped headstock still, not allowed to throw it away. Has to be scrapped through official firm. So, sitting on my garden wall. 🌻

Ok, I have the original carbs (or a set of carbs he said were original: more to follow) And headers too! Would engine work be a cause for different/maybe larger headers? Thanks for the compliment BTW!

 

[alex the biker]

Ok, I have the original carbs (or a set of carbs he said were original: more to follow) And headers too! Would engine work be a cause for different/maybe larger headers? Thanks for the compliment BTW!

I just mean those star shaped heat dissipaters at exhaust head don't look original. Minor, only difference is cosmetic. My '78 Bonneville was actually'79 model, otherwise I'd post picture.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Whisky,

78 Bonneville tank didn't have a parcel rack.

No OIF had a tank rack originally - first OIF was '71, Triumph stopped fitting tank racks at the end of '68.

Would engine work be a cause for different/maybe larger headers?

The whole exhaust system isn't '78.

Pre-'72, Triumph threaded the exhaust ports in the head for screw-in stubs, the headers then pushed over the stubs and were clamped in place on the stubs by what Triumph called "Finned clips".

'72-on, Triumph stopped doing the above, just pushed the ends of the pipes into the unthreaded ports and crossed their fingers. Was a crap idea and, if an owner didn't attend to a loose pipe, it rattled around in the port, wore it out-of-round and then the pipe'd never seal ... So other people just made money doing what Triumph should've stayed doing - boring out-of-round exhaust ports, threading them and making stubs to fit ...

However, while someone's done something similar to your bike, educated guess says they've adapted parts from a Japanese bike - I think the bolted-on exhaust clamps (Alex's "star shaped heat dissipaters") hold stubs pushed into the exhaust ports. However2, the stubs are much longer than Triumph used, is the reason the wider part of each header, over the stub, is visible; standard Triumph, the wider part of each header would have the "Finned clip" around it.

The headers are probably '69-'71 Triumph, the balance pipe clamped between the headers helps to hold them in place on the stubs. However3, the long stubs have pushed the headers further away from the engine than standard, is likely the reason for the clamp around each pipe half-way down, bolted to the standard mounting brackets (they'd normally bolt to brackets welded to the pipes).

Finally, depending on the outside diameter of the headers, the mufflers are either '69/'70 T150 from what's known as a "beauty kit", or pre-'71 BSA A65.

Ignition switch mounting isn't original. The bike's switch would originally have been in the left-hand headlamp mounting 'ear', your PO has fitted a '79 left-hand headlamp mounting ear - without the switch mounting point - and moved the switch.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[alex the biker]

Here's a '78.
I can't spot anything not right for year. The rear light is black though, this was more common on '77 model.
If you get a free parts books, available on line, entering part numbers in a search engine will help.

I've got a '77 in boxes. You've made me realise what a lovely bike this is, nicer than the late '78/'79 model. I'll have to make a start on it.

 

[alex the biker]

Of course, no need to go stock!
I think T140 make the best Bonneville custom bikes.
Here another '77 model.

 

[pennafxu]

I just mean those star shaped heat dissipaters at exhaust head don't look original. Minor, only difference is cosmetic. My '78 Bonneville was actually'79 model, otherwise I'd post picture.

Ok, appreciate the info... I think I'm gonna leave this beast the way it is. This ain't no survivor... 😂 It sounds more like a mutt the way you fellas are describing it! At this point I want to hear it run (tune it up) and take care of basic functional items as described earlier. Also, maybe some basic paint clean up and just ride the the hell out of it...

 

[pennafxu]

Hi Whisky,

No OIF had a tank rack originally - first OIF was '71, Triumph stopped fitting tank racks at the end of '68.


The whole exhaust system isn't '78.

Pre-'72, Triumph threaded the exhaust ports in the head for screw-in stubs, the headers then pushed over the stubs and were clamped in place on the stubs by what Triumph called "Finned clips".

'72-on, Triumph stopped doing the above, just pushed the ends of the pipes into the unthreaded ports and crossed their fingers. Was a crap idea and, if an owner didn't attend to a loose pipe, it rattled around in the port, wore it out-of-round and then the pipe'd never seal ... So other people just made money doing what Triumph should've stayed doing - boring out-of-round exhaust ports, threading them and making stubs to fit ...

However, while someone's done something similar to your bike, educated guess says they've adapted parts from a Japanese bike - I think the bolted-on exhaust clamps (Alex's "star shaped heat dissipaters") hold stubs pushed into the exhaust ports. However2, the stubs are much longer than Triumph used, is the reason the wider part of each header, over the stub, is visible; standard Triumph, the wider part of each header would have the "Finned clip" around it.

The headers are probably '69-'71 Triumph, the balance pipe clamped between the headers helps to hold them in place on the stubs. However3, the long stubs have pushed the headers further away from the engine than standard, is likely the reason for the clamp around each pipe half-way down, bolted to the standard mounting brackets (they'd normally bolt to brackets welded to the pipes).

Finally, depending on the outside diameter of the headers, the mufflers are either '69/'70 T150 from what's known as a "beauty kit", or pre-'71 BSA A65.

Ignition switch mounting isn't original. The bike's switch would originally have been in the left-hand headlamp mounting 'ear', your PO has fitted a '79 left-hand headlamp mounting ear - without the switch mounting point - and moved the switch.

Hth.

Regards,

Could it be an early 79'? ps is there a classified section on this forum?