Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

1 - 20 of 79 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
First, a bit of background on this bike.

I acquired it for the princely sum of nothing from my wife's uncle back in 2003. It had been languishing under a tarp in his garden since the early 80s, getting progressively rustier, and he had completely lost all interest in it. I had nowhere to keep it at the time, so it went to my dad's who was going to start the restoration process, but never got much further than unseizing the pistons from the barrels, and starting to strip a few bits off.

I moved to a bigger place with garage space, but then kids came along, and all time and money was spoken for for a good few years. So fast forward to 2019, and I finally got it back here to begin the restoration.

It's a 1968 TR6 Trophy in Riviera Blue, but has a few "incorrect" parts. It has a twin carb head (presumably from a Bonnie) with two Amal "930" carbs, and also non-standard forks with a disc brake and hydraulic caliper. These were on the bike when the wife's uncle bought it, and he said the brake was very good, but we don't know what it came from. I suspect it might be a TR7, but if you guys can ID them, it would be a massive help. In any case, the stanchions are scrap, and they are seized solid. At the moment I have no idea whether I'll end up fixing these up and refitting them, or returning the bike to standard spec. In any case, I'm not going for originality with this project generall,y as it's the wrong starting point. I want it to look good, be mechanically fit, reliable, and useable.

The bottom end turns freely and smoothly, and there's no perceptible play on the big ends. There's a lot of side to side play on the small ends, but my intention is to strip, clean and rebuild the engine anyway, so I'm not massively worried about it.

Frame is in very good shape, with most of its paint intact. There's some surface rust, but it's very solid and serviceable. The only slightly bizarre thing is that someone has hacked the brace tube rear of the old tank mount bracket. Again this was done before the last owner had it, and he rode it for a decade with no problems at all, but I will probably mig a new section in while I've got the frame stripped, just for peace of mind.

So there you have it. Pics are attached to give you an idea. I'll be posting updates as we go. This project has to fit around work and family, and also financial considerations, so it won't be quick, but I'm hoping to keep it moving forward steadily, without rushing or taking shortcuts.
 

Attachments

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,689 Posts
Welcome!

"I've seen worse" (but not a LOT worse!)

I have no idea why someone might've chopped the rearward bit of lower tube from under the main frame tube.

No questions asked, as you've surmised, that the engine needs to go down to the bare crank & sludge tube!

Overall, though, looks like it'll be a nice rider. I like the parcel grid.

Do the frame & engine numbers match?

Sometimes free bikes cost more, but restoring one THIS rough is a reward in itself.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,896 Posts
Hi,

+1. :)

non-standard forks with a disc brake and hydraulic caliper.
we don't know what it came from. I suspect it might be a TR7,
Uh-uh, forks are most-likely from a '73 or '74 T150. Reason I can be almost 100%-certain of this is the Zener diode heatsink mounting under the headlamp - standard for your bike but a disc-brake twin had the Zener mounted on the airbox so didn't have a bracket welded to the underside of the lower yoke.

There are other reasons the forks are far-more-likely from a '73/'74 triple: they still used exactly the same cup-'n'-cone steering bearings as your bike, whereas contemporary 750 twins have taper-roller bearings (although there are aftermarket kits to replace cups-'n'-cones with taper-rollers); triples always used basically the same frame as your bike's - colloquially-known as 'dry-frame' because it has a separate tank for the engine oil - whereas contemporary 750 twins are 'oil-in-frame' - engine oil in a large-diameter frame tube essentially between steering head and swinging-arm pivot; the significance of this for forks is the dry-frame steering head and steering stem (interference-fit in the lower yoke) are about 1/4" longer than the corresponding OIF parts.

Also, your bike's original tachometer would've matched the speedo., the black-faced tachometer could've come from the triple, the rear grabrail is dry-frame, not OIF, and I'll make an educated guess that the rear mudguard is also dry-frame, not OIF; another educated guess says the rear lamp and mounting casting are the large '73-on ones, not the smaller '68 ones?

Returning to the forks, apart from the lower yoke, all other external parts are the same on both contemporary triples and twins; internally, springs and dampers are different.

no idea whether I'll end up fixing these up and refitting them, or returning the bike to standard spec.
Could well be either path is equally-expensive; :( your bike's original 8" twin-leading-shoe drum is a good brake and many have been fitted into specials or used to upgrade earlier drum-brake Triumphs.

twin carb head (presumably from a Bonnie)
Risking telling you something you know already, if the head's inlet ports are 'splayed' (not parallel to the bike's centreline), it's from a Bonnie; however, if the ports are parallel, there was at least one US aftermarket kit to convert TR6's to twin carbs. using the standard head.

Riviera Blue
Just as a matter of interest, are you sure? Reason I ask is Triumph oil tanks and drive-side panels were almost-always black, not one of the tank colours. It's possible they were painted to match the tank, but equally-possible tanks and sidepanel were painted 'a' pale blue, the petrol tank just in the original pattern? One possible way to tell is the pinstripes - Meriden hand-painted 'em so, close up, the width and edges can be a little irregular; however, resprays often have pinstripes masked by lining tape removed after the 'main' colours are sprayed, so they appear more consistent than hand-painted ones.

Btw, and again risking telling you something you know already, the tank is specifically one known as 'UK & General Export', i.e. not a US-market one.

Hth.

Regards,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,498 Posts
That is one neglected old Trumpy, be nice if you can save it but it's going to be expensive!

Paint is not factory, whilst it is laid out in a similar fashion it is not as the factory did it.

Engine is not from a 68 model bike so possible the head matches the engine?

Rod
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Thank you all for the welcome and helpful info. It is much appreciated :smile2:

No questions asked, as you've surmised, that the engine needs to go down to the bare crank & sludge tube!
Crankcase will come apart and be sent off for vapour blasting. I am tempted to renew the crank bearings, big end shells and all bushes and seals as a matter of course while I am in there, given the minimal amount of extra cost relative to the project as a whole. The labour is free, and I am not up against the clock on this one. I am doing this to build something to enjoy, and if I know it's all right in there, it will just make it that bit more satisfying, as well as hopefully good for many years to come.

Do the frame & engine numbers match?
To the paperwork, yes, but not to each other. The engine seems to be from a TR6P (engine number shot in attached pics) which I am guessing was swapped in at some point.



Uh-uh, forks are most-likely from a '73 or '74 T150. Reason I can be almost 100%-certain of this is the Zener diode heatsink mounting under the headlamp - standard for your bike but a disc-brake twin had the Zener mounted on the airbox so didn't have a bracket welded to the underside of the lower yoke.

There are other reasons the forks are far-more-likely from a '73/'74 triple: they still used exactly the same cup-'n'-cone steering bearings as your bike, whereas contemporary 750 twins have taper-roller bearings (although there are aftermarket kits to replace cups-'n'-cones with taper-rollers); triples always used basically the same frame as your bike's - colloquially-known as 'dry-frame' because it has a separate tank for the engine oil - whereas contemporary 750 twins are 'oil-in-frame' - engine oil in a large-diameter frame tube essentially between steering head and swinging-arm pivot; the significance of this for forks is the dry-frame steering head and steering stem (interference-fit in the lower yoke) are about 1/4" longer than the corresponding OIF parts.
Really helpful, thank you. :doublethumb: . I've got the forks off now, and have attached some more pics of them, plus a clearer view of the yokes for info.

Risking telling you something you know already, if the head's inlet ports are 'splayed' (not parallel to the bike's centreline), it's from a Bonnie; however, if the ports are parallel, there was at least one US aftermarket kit to convert TR6's to twin carbs. using the standard head.
The ports are splayed, with the carbs pointing slightly outwards, so that suggests it is a Bonnie head. The engine number is TR6P BG46822, which doesn't match the frame number (although both match what is printed on the registration document), so I guess it's seen some history :smile2: Would it be logical to assume the engine (or at least the left side crankcase) has been swapped in from a police spec bike?

Just as a matter of interest, are you sure? Reason I ask is Triumph oil tanks and drive-side panels were almost-always black, not one of the tank colours. It's possible they were painted to match the tank, but equally-possible tanks and sidepanel were painted 'a' pale blue, the petrol tank just in the original pattern? One possible way to tell is the pinstripes - Meriden hand-painted 'em so, close up, the width and edges can be a little irregular; however, resprays often have pinstripes masked by lining tape removed after the 'main' colours are sprayed, so they appear more consistent than hand-painted ones.
Regards,
Again, really useful info. The edges on the tank are quite irregular, but I don't know if it's the original paint colour or not. The final touch will be to get the tank (probably a replacement), side panel and oil tank professionally painted.

I've been stripping the front end, and have it now all off apart from the yokes. The approach I am taking is to remove everything, properly assess the frame (although everything I can see so far looks perfectly serviceable), repair the hacked tube, clean all the old paint and surface rust off, prime and paint. Then rebuild it bit by bit back into a complete bike, with the appropriate new or reconditioned parts.

Found some interesting stuff already, most of which I suspect is par for the course on a bike this age with an unknown history:

1) The wiring has been hacked about and "modified" over the years, with countless Scotchlock and crimped connectors all over the place, and some seriously furry connectors. Rather than go back and trace/repair/correct, I'm going to replace it with a new harness, and start again.

2) There is a horrible notchy feel to the steering head bearings, so these have been added to the shopping list.

3) The fork legs are actually in really good nick. I reckon they are perfectly salvageable. The threads are all good, and there's no more than a couple of spots of light surface corrosion here and there. The springs look pretty good as well. My thinking at the moment, subject to positive ID / parts availability is to refresh what's there, but that's a decision for another day when it comes to putting the bike back together. I do like the idea of fitting something that came out of the yokes fitted to the bike, and worked just fine. The yokes themselves will clean up fine with a blast, prime and paint.

4) The brake caliper itself is a Lockheed unit which as expected is thoroughly seized, but I will take that apart and assess it, also taking into account parts availability. At this stage, with the information I have today, I am leaning towards keeping the front disc rather than trying to source all the parts to return the bike to standard. But one thing at a time - for now it's about dismantling which is going remarkably well so far. I've had a few stubborn bolts and screws, but nothing (yet) that has defeated me, and no damaged threads discovered so far. Hope that continues :)
 

Attachments

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,689 Posts
You'll want to have the blaster treat that crank as soon as it's been cleaned after blasting, so as not to flash rust while it waits to be incorporated. If they aren't prepared for that, you'll need to give it the once-over and treat it yourself. Even if it's just a light spray with WD40...
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,896 Posts
Hi,

tempted to renew the crank bearings, big end shells and all bushes and seals as a matter of course while I am in there, given the minimal amount of extra cost relative to the project as a whole.
Give in to that temptation. Given the history of the bike and the external state of the engine, imho there isn't any point taking it to bits and not doing bottom end bearings; the only possible question mark is whether the big-ends need grinding undersize and new shells or just the latter. If it does need a regrind, needs to be done by a specialist who knows old Triumph cranks. Whether it needs a regrind or just for other spares, Rockerbox Motorcycles isn't far from you. :thumb

frame & engine numbers match?
The engine number is TR6P BG46822, which doesn't match the frame number
Would it be logical to assume the engine (or at least the left side crankcase) has been swapped in from a police spec bike?
An educated guess says it's more likely to have been the complete engine, at least as far as the top of the cylinder block. To tell if at least the crankcases started life together, look at the lower mounting lugs - if both case 'halves' have the same code stamped on the lug, they started life together; if they don't, they didn't.

Then risking telling you something else you know already, the engine number date code is February ("B") '72 ("G"). That was originally OIF so do the Bonnie head and rocker-boxes also have the OIF mods. or are they pre-OIF, which should make attaching the head-steadies to the frame easier?

clearer view of the yokes
The Zener mounting lug is definitely 'factory'; three other things would confirm the lower yoke is T150: the steering bearings are balls - either 20 loose or a 'captive ball' race in each; the top steering stem nut is fitted to more than just a few threads on the stem; a picture of the rear edges of the lower yoke around where it contacts the frame steering stops?

The top yoke was used both on the '73 and '74 T150 and '73-'78 twins.

horrible notchy feel to the steering head bearings,
If they're balls, new 'captive' ball races are available under part number 97-4034; wa-aa-ay easier than loose balls.

frame
repair the hacked tube, clean all the old paint and surface rust off, prime and paint.
It might not be obvious but the steering stops are detachable, they simply unscrew. :thumb

tank (probably a replacement),
don't know if it's the original paint colour or not.
"Redmoggy" Rod posted above that it isn't.

"replacement" (tank) is a double-edged sword - an original will cost a fortune and probably need work in addition to new paint; new can be had from India but you need to pick your metal-basher with great or the tank can need a lot of expensive remedial work here in GB to make it fit. What's up with the one you have?

wiring
going to replace it with a new harness
If you must buy off-the-shelf, I recommend buying from TMS who supply harnesses made by Autosparks here in GB.

However, if you use the Forum Advanced Search, you'll see I prefer diy, using components mainly from Autosparks and Vehicle Wiring Products.

Main reason is even a TMS/Autosparks harness will be pretty-much an exact replica of whatever Lucas made in the year you order (e.g. '68?), so it'll have connections for separate rectifier and Zener, points, coils, condensers, yadda, yadda. However, we're half-a-century on - electronic ignition will be better value than searching out points and condensers; the existing Zener might work but, if it doesn't, you'll replace it and the rectifier with a modern combined electronic regulator/rectifier; high-output 3-phase alternator is more 'bang for your buck', and would need rectifier 'n' Zener replacing anyway; etc.; etc.

You have to modify any off-the shelf-harness for any upgrades you want, and most (all?) upgrades leave unused wires and terminals that you have to tape up. :( Otoh, if you diy, you have what you want, that can be upgraded easily at any time. :thumb

While we're talking about electrics, beware of anything new labelled "(Genuine) Lucas"; the maker has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Lucas that made your bike's original electrical components. It's actually a company called Wassell, who've been making (generally poor-quality) pattern parts for decades; five years ago, they secured a deal with the current "Lucas" brand owner to use the name and packaging on the bits they've made for years.

fork legs are actually in really good nick.
there's no more than a couple of spots of light surface corrosion here and there.
:rofl What are your pictures of then? The exposed area on both stanchions between the lower yoke and the slider is badly rusted and the darker area of rust on the 'non-disc' stanchion is where the seal has rubbed over grit/road debris stuck to the oil; an educated guess says the disc stanchion has a similar worn area?

They are "salvageable" - A.M. Philpot will do 'em, but it won't be cheap ...

New stanchions are available but can be a tin of worms - cheap can be poorly-chromed and/or incorrect diameters; if you decide to buy new, familiarise yourself with the dimensions in the workshop manual and check what you buy with a micrometer or calipers.

When you rebuild the forks:-

. ime and mho use the '78-on Super Seals (aka Leakproof seals) with the '78/'79 interference-fit retention washers, available as a set under 97-7010;

. replace the "Rubber ring" (under the bottom yoke) and the "Scraper sleeve" (on each slider) with Norton Commando gaiters specifically by Andover Norton:

. use proper fork oil instead of the recommended ATF.

brake caliper itself is a Lockheed unit which as expected is thoroughly seized, but I will take that apart and assess it,
Unless caliper and master cylinder were left disconnected from each other for a long time, you could well find the caliper pistons aren't seized - they might come out with compressed air but be aware, if they do, they come out withe a hell of a bang - maybe wrap the caliper in an old towel if trying this?

parts availability.
An educated guess says the master cylinder is seized in the handlebar mounting ... "They all do that, sir." :bluduh However, if you can get it apart (you might have to spark-erode the grub-screw in the mounting that locks the cylinder in position) and the piston isn't corroded, new pattern stainless cylinders are available; otoh, if none of it's salvageable, complete pattern stainless cylinder/pistons in new mountings are available.

New stainless or anodised ally caliper slave pistons are available. If the caliper is too far gone, ally replacements are available from AP Racing and patterns from Grimeca and Wassell. Note the Grimecas are 'metricated' - M10 x 1 threads instead of original 3/8"UNF, 41 mm. OD slave pistons instead of 1-5/8" OD, etc.

Connecting master cylinder and caliper, I strongly advise against simply renewing the standard mixture of rubber hoses and steel pipes; braided hose with stainless end fittings is fa-aa-ar more durable and you can make what you want yourself; :thumb the hose can be black-plastic covered so it looks not-dissimilar to the rubber hoses to a casual glance. It's also wise to incorporate a proper pressure switch to operate the brake lamp, rather than the Heath Robinson device buried in the master cylinder mounting.

Hth.

Regards,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,498 Posts
To the best of my knowledge there is not anyone currently reproducing the Home and General Export tank that is fitted to your bike. If you can post better pictures of the tank including the underside and front mounting points then I can point out any repairs and what work would be required in order to bring it back to original.

Rod
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Hi,

Then risking telling you something else you know already, the engine number date code is February ("B") '72 ("G"). That was originally OIF so do the Bonnie head and rocker-boxes also have the OIF mods. or are they pre-OIF, which should make attaching the head-steadies to the frame easier?
The barrels and head are still in boxes at my dad's place, so will have a look when I go and collect them. I didn't know about the codes, so thank you :smile2:


The Zener mounting lug is definitely 'factory'; three other things would confirm the lower yoke is T150: the steering bearings are balls - either 20 loose or a 'captive ball' race in each; the top steering stem nut is fitted to more than just a few threads on the stem; a picture of the rear edges of the lower yoke around where it contacts the frame steering stops?

The top yoke was used both on the '73 and '74 T150 and '73-'78 twins.


If they're balls, new 'captive' ball races are available under part number 97-4034; wa-aa-ay easier than loose balls.


It might not be obvious but the steering stops are detachable, they simply unscrew. :thumb
The head bearings were individual ball bearings. Given that a decent number of them fell on the garage floor when I pulled the yokes out (the refitting question entered my head immediately), the idea of replacing them with captive ball races when it comes to the rebuild appeals massively. Thanks for the part number - noted :thumb:

I've taken some more pics of the bottom yoke, and will upload them in a later post (no access to the phone at the moment). Thank you.

"replacement" (tank) is a double-edged sword - an original will cost a fortune and probably need work in addition to new paint; new can be had from India but you need to pick your metal-basher with great or the tank can need a lot of expensive remedial work here in GB to make it fit. What's up with the one you have?
Outwardly, it's not too bad, but inside looks very rusty. If it's grief to find another, I am open to re-using it. This is where experience on this forum is really handy as I've looked and seen they are available, but didn't realise they weren't direct swaps. Again, thanks for the insight


If you must buy off-the-shelf, I recommend buying from TMS who supply harnesses made by Autosparks here in GB.

However, if you use the Forum Advanced Search, you'll see I prefer diy, using components mainly from Autosparks and Vehicle Wiring Products.

Main reason is even a TMS/Autosparks harness will be pretty-much an exact replica of whatever Lucas made in the year you order (e.g. '68?), so it'll have connections for separate rectifier and Zener, points, coils, condensers, yadda, yadda. However, we're half-a-century on - electronic ignition will be better value than searching out points and condensers; the existing Zener might work but, if it doesn't, you'll replace it and the rectifier with a modern combined electronic regulator/rectifier; high-output 3-phase alternator is more 'bang for your buck', and would need rectifier 'n' Zener replacing anyway; etc.; etc.

You have to modify any off-the shelf-harness for any upgrades you want, and most (all?) upgrades leave unused wires and terminals that you have to tape up. :( Otoh, if you diy, you have what you want, that can be upgraded easily at any time.

While we're talking about electrics, beware of anything new labelled "(Genuine) Lucas"; the maker has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Lucas that made your bike's original electrical components. It's actually a company called Wassell, who've been making (generally poor-quality) pattern parts for decades; five years ago, they secured a deal with the current "Lucas" brand owner to use the name and packaging on the bits they've made for years.
Electronic ignition, modern voltage regulator and alternator upgrade are definitely on the to do list. I see absolutely no advantage to retaining the points/condenser, or the Zener diode regulator (even if, by some miracle, it does still work), other than originality, which we've already established is not really this bike's forte as it is :wink2:. My objective is a bike that looks tidy, is reliable, safe, and will start and stop when I want it to. Although I want it to be right (as in mechanically sound and safe to use), I'm certainly not aiming for concours or show winning. It's about getting this poor old thing back on the road to take out on sunny days and enjoy.

Re the modern 'Lucas' stuff, I had a virtually identical conversation with my uncle a few weeks ago, who has restored an Austin A35 over the past few years. He bought three brand new 'Lucas' condensers, one of which was DOA, and the other two failed within a few hundred miles. In the end he sourced a NOS genuine Lucas item, which has performed faultlessly for over a year.

:rofl What are your pictures of then? The exposed area on both stanchions between the lower yoke and the slider is badly rusted and the darker area of rust on the 'non-disc' stanchion is where the seal has rubbed over grit/road debris stuck to the oil; an educated guess says the disc stanchion has a similar worn area?

They are "salvageable" - A.M. Philpot will do 'em, but it won't be cheap ...

New stanchions are available but can be a tin of worms - cheap can be poorly-chromed and/or incorrect diameters; if you decide to buy new, familiarise yourself with the dimensions in the workshop manual and check what you buy with a micrometer or calipers.
The stanchions are obviously toast, but the legs themselves don't look too bad to me. Usual road rash, and a bit of light surface corrosion in places. I don't see anything that can't be sorted with a bit of careful prep, and a repaint, and the threads for the mudguard and the spindle cap studs are all good. One of the spindle caps itself has a crack in it (the stud nuts were super-tight, which may be a clue as to why), but I can replace it.

When you rebuild the forks:-

. ime and mho use the '78-on Super Seals (aka Leakproof seals) with the '78/'79 interference-fit retention washers, available as a set under 97-7010;

. replace the "Rubber ring" (under the bottom yoke) and the "Scraper sleeve" (on each slider) with Norton Commando gaiters specifically by Andover Norton:

. use proper fork oil instead of the recommended ATF.
Great advice, thank you.

Unless caliper and master cylinder were left disconnected from each other for a long time, you could well find the caliper pistons aren't seized - they might come out with compressed air but be aware, if they do, they come out withe a hell of a bang - maybe wrap the caliper in an old towel if trying this?
Been there with an old ZZR600 I used to own. :smile2: The hydraulic lines were still connected, but there was no fluid anywhere in the system. Given the state of the rigid pipes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were no longer sealed. I'll take the caliper apart and see how bad it is when the time comes. Experience with other machines tells me that brakes are one of the biggest sufferers when it comes to long term disuse, but hopefully when it comes to it, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

An educated guess says the master cylinder is seized in the handlebar mounting ... "They all do that, sir." :bluduh However, if you can get it apart (you might have to spark-erode the grub-screw in the mounting that locks the cylinder in position) and the piston isn't corroded, new pattern stainless cylinders are available; otoh, if none of it's salvageable, complete pattern stainless cylinder/pistons in new mountings are available.

New stainless or anodised ally caliper slave pistons are available. If the caliper is too far gone, ally replacements are available from AP Racing and patterns from Grimeca and Wassell. Note the Grimecas are 'metricated' - M10 x 1 threads instead of original 3/8"UNF, 41 mm. OD slave pistons instead of 1-5/8" OD, etc.

Connecting master cylinder and caliper, I strongly advise against simply renewing the standard mixture of rubber hoses and steel pipes; braided hose with stainless end fittings is fa-aa-ar more durable and you can make what you want yourself; :thumb the hose can be black-plastic covered so it looks not-dissimilar to the rubber hoses to a casual glance. It's also wise to incorporate a proper pressure switch to operate the brake lamp, rather than the Heath Robinson device buried in the master cylinder mounting.

Hth.
Helps massively, thank you. The master cylinder is still attached to the handlebars. The mounting clamp screws have turned to Bran Flakes, so getting them out is going to be a nightmare. I've soaked them in Plus Gas repeatedly and will tackle them another day. The linkage to the lever is broken, so the lever flaps about.

Great tip on the hydraulic hose. I must admit, I couldn't really work out why Triumph chose the flexi / rigid / flexi / rigid approach. I'll use a single flexi for the whole thing when I put it back together. Will also rework the switch as suggested.


To the best of my knowledge there is not anyone currently reproducing the Home and General Export tank that is fitted to your bike. If you can post better pictures of the tank including the underside and front mounting points then I can point out any repairs and what work would be required in order to bring it back to original.

Rod
Brilliant, thanks Rod. I will get some pics uploaded ASAP :smile2:
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,896 Posts
Hi Dan,

head bearings were individual ball bearings. Given that a decent number of them fell on the garage floor when I pulled the yokes out (the refitting question entered my head immediately),
Replacing individual balls isn't a problem, just tedious, The bearings have to be greased so, if you stick the balls on to either cup or cone with grease, job done, just boring and messy.

To the best of my knowledge there is not anyone currently reproducing the Home and General Export tank
Tch, Dan might have to use a TR6R tank ... :whistle

(Dan: Rod and I have an ongoing friendly disagreement about which is the best-looking 650 tank ... :D The TR6R was a US version fitted with a different (better-looking imho ;)) tank that had only slightly less capacity than the 'UK & General Export' tank.)

Joking aside, I know a guy who's derusted tank insides for me and another who can then pressure-test it and, if that doesn't reveal too many pinholes, do any other fixes Rod advises. Only possible problem for you is the first guy's in Bedfordshire and the second's in Essex; if still interested, I can contact the tank-derusting guy and check if he still does it?

alternator upgrade
Hopefully we aren't spending your money faster than you're making it ... :) but, if you take a look at, say, the TMS electrics webpage, the "most bang for your buck" I mentioned earlier are "Code" 47244 and 47244/UK; the former is 'Wassell Lucas', the latter is made by a company here in GB that grew out of the last 'original Lucas' manufacturing unit here; when Wassell got their exclusive deal to use the "Lucas" branding, they made every other company using "Lucas" on their products stop, :Not again hence just "UK MADE" in the TMS description.

A little further down the page are rotors 54202299 and 54202299/UK and, at the bottom of the page, are "GENUINE PODTRONICS" reg./rec. Or the other reg./rec. type I can point you at are cheap-but-reliable :thumb Chinese-made pattern Honda reg./rec. on Ebay.

The stanchions are obviously toast, but the legs themselves don't look too bad to me.
:nod I understand; however, as I say, Philpot's can reclaim the stanchions - strip, weld, hard-chome and grind back to size.

One of the spindle caps itself has a crack in it (the stud nuts were super-tight, which may be a clue as to why), but I can replace it.
:Not again One of the infamous Meriden Misprints in the workshop manuals was to print the steel spindle caps 25 ft.lb. torque figure for ally caps also ... Meriden reduced the ally cap figure to 15 ft.lb. many years later.

You can pay through the nose for "billet" (meaningless) ally caps on Ebay but, in reality, the nuts just need to be nipped-up - the axle is located laterally by two of the studs on each slider and there's a stonking great gap between cap and slider, all tightening the nuts needs to do is bend the cap elastically microscopically and the axle really won't go anywhere ...

The master cylinder is still attached to the handlebars. The mounting clamp screws have turned to Bran Flakes, so getting them out is going to be a nightmare. I've soaked them in Plus Gas repeatedly
Heat on the corners of the ally switch casting? That's where the threads are. You'll be pleased to know stainless replacements are available. :)

The linkage to the lever is broken, so the lever flaps about.
Mmmm ... the "linkage" is just a pushrod rivetted to the lever - regrettably, more likely the piston has seized in the cylinder. :(

hydraulic hose.
The original "flexi / rigid / flexi / rigid" was more-likely Lockheed advised the same approach as other vehicles; it does mean it never suffered from the Japanese problem of expanding all-rubber hoses.

From experience, I advise against one single hose. I dislike the pressure switch banjo bolt into the master cylinder so I mounted a standard Lucas one (as used by Triumph '79-on) on the standard lower-yoke stanchion pinch bolt, which also handily means two hoses.

Hth.

Regards,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
OK gents, here's the tank. I've given it a quick wipe down with sugar soap and a soft cloth, but what you see is pretty much it.

I did my best to capture the inside - apologies, it's a bit hard pointing a phone camera down a big black 'ole :)

Good news is the mountings seem OK, and apart from one little pin-prick dent which only shows in certain light, it seems undamaged.

The corrosion in the close up on the 2nd to last pic is the one visible on the left side of the final pic, on the bottom corner of the tank under the knee pad. It's the worst bit I can find.

Any thoughts?

Cheers
Dan
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,498 Posts
Firstly I can say without question that the paint is not as it left Meriden.

Ok, what you have is a tank that is in reasonable condition and probably as good as you are likely to find. On the positive side there appears to be only one area of corrosion on the outside that looks to be a concern and the fuel filler neck does not appear to have been compromised to any serious extend. The inside also looks to be in salvageable condition. However it has suffered from the standard poor repairs around the front mounting points. These repairs can be a mixed bag as far as longevity is concerned.

I'll elaborate later when I can sit down and sort some reference pictures to help you along.

Rod
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,498 Posts
So since Stuart mentioned the TR6R tank here are some pics of the tanks Meriden produced that will fit your machine.



From left to right. Home and general export, Export 6T and TR6R (this one without rack), export TR6C and T120R/TT Slimline and Emgo reproduction Slimline. The Emgo tank is considered one of the better reproductions and yet is completely different to an original and a piss poor fit.

Back to your tank. This is how the front mounting points look on an unmolested tank 68 Home Market tank (this one from a T120)



Note that the metal plates are not welded continuously, this helps avoid moisture building up in the void between the two pieces of steel. The tank has pressed recess's for the plates to fit into, can't find a good pic of an original with the plates removed but this is one I've repaired in the past.



Most importantly the mounting studs have a shoulder at either end. These stop the stud screwing too far into the mounting plate one end and stops the mounting rubbers being over compressed on the other.

What has happened to your tank and almost every other I have seen is that the shouldered studs have been substituted for set screws and wound into the mounting plate until they punctured the tank. then in oder to stop the resulting leak someone has welded or brazed the set screw into the plate and then welded or brazed around the plate. Theses repairs often start to leak again and usually just after fresh paint has been applied! My guess would be that moisture settling at the bottom of the tank finds it's way into the void between the two pieces of steel and rots it out from the inside.

The filler necks on these tanks are crimped into place, over time with the cap being twisted on and off the crimp can loosen just enough to allow fuel to find its way under the crimp and compromise the paint on the outside. The preferred repair is to silver solder around the inside of the crimp. It was suggested to me that this can be fixed by using a tank sealer, however having tried this and had it fail on a customers tank I will continue to solder them.

Rod

Oh, whilst I am now officially a Kiwi I grew up in a less flash part of Hampshire.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Sorry for the late reply Rod. Crazy week at work, and then the weekend took over! Thank you so much for the wealth on information and the pictures. It's all a big help, and I really appreciate you taking the time to post them. As for your last comment, it really is a small world! :)

That's some seriously impressive repair work there, and I don't mind admitting that it sits well beyond my skills and ability. When the time comes, I will need to find someone who can do the necessary on my tank. It's tucked away safely in the warm and dry for now, so hopefully the corrosion won't get any worse in the interim.

Had a few more hours here and there on the bike since my last post which have been spent getting everything stripped down off the frame, so that I can properly assess it, clean up the rust and old paint, and then prime and paint it. I plan to entrust most of the paintwork on this project to a professional, but I will do the frame myself, because I am confident I can get a good (enough) finish on it. I haven't uncovered any serious rust on the frame yet. The only bit I can't really get at yet are the tubes that run under the engine, but these are absolutely soaked in engine oil, so given the general condition of the rest of it, I am reasonably confident. The swingarm and rear subframe are both serviceable, and will come up fine with similar stripping of all the old paint and surface rust.

Good news so far is no stripped or broken threads, everything has come out with regular spanners and sockets (no extractors, heat, hacksaws, drills needed). There was a decent amount of oil in the oil tank (although filthy and seriously smelly!). This was the only butchery needed in that I had to cut the rubber pipes between the tank and the engine to get them off as the rubber had gone brittle and stuck to the metal engine pipes. Rather than yank these about and put the pipes under stress, I took the easy and quick option.

Otherwise it's just been a case of taking lots of photographs as I've gone of how things go together / where they go / how cables and pipes are routed, and putting all parts (and fastenings that can't go back into the component they came out of), safely into logical groupings in boxes and bags. It is a lovely design, I think. Simple, well put together, and all comes apart logically. I'm really enjoying this so far, although the wallet-shoeing part hasn't started yet! :)

Here she is as of this afternoon.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
OK, just a quick update. Strip down is continuing, and is going remarkably smoothly. Apart from a cross-threaded bolt on the upper rear left side engine mount which was easily cut out with a Dremel, everything has come undone with patience. Engine came out easily to the left side. Just the swingarm to come off, and then I'll have a bare frame to work with.

The good news is, I've found no horrors on the frame. The lower rails were both soaked in engine oil which seems to have done a good preservation job. Next step is to thoroughly degreaseand clean, then start removing the old paint and surface rust ready for repainting. I'm also going to weld in a small section of tube to replace the hacked brace tube. Should be relatively straightforward, as it seems there's good metal to weld to. The bike was run for years in this condition, so it's more for aesthetics for me at this point, but it seems daft not to see to it while it's at this point. Then repaint and start building the bike back up with the appropriate new parts.

Lots and lots of labelled bags of bolts and a growing pile of rusty parts. The expensive bit starts soon!

Thanks everyone for all the amazing help and advice so far. It's greatly appreciated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,498 Posts
I sort of get your logic but that section of frame is far from superfluous in terms of structure, it also original had a tab attached for the upper head steadies. Before you get into painting it would be a good idea to mock your motor up in the frame, the later top end was not the same as the early style and you will need to devise a head steady to suit.

Rod
 
1 - 20 of 79 Posts
Top