[runt262]

I bought my bike from a friends mother. Her Dad was British man who was a mechanic and worked only on English bikes and cars. For her first bike, her Dad insisted that she get something English. He had Nortons galore, but she got a Triumph. Here it sits in my garage.

Last registered in 1977. Last ran about 15 years ago. The owners kept telling me that it was going to be a "toss some oil in the spark plug holes. run some gas through and light 'er up." kind of project. But I decided to do an entire teardown once I realized that it wasn't going to turn over at all.

Brought the bike home, and assembled the bike to the basics. Put the sheet metal on and sorted through the box of pieces and parts that the bike came with.

Then started ripping it apart. Excluding the engine, the bike is in good condition. The frame, sheet metal, brakes...blah blah blah, they're decent. All in rebuildable condition. Freshen up the metal with paint. Do maintenance with pads and cables. Basic stuff.

Then comes the engine. I have it torn down to the point where all side covers are off. Rusty balls and it looks disgusting. I took a mallet to the jug for about 10 minutes just to get the pistons free. You can see the rust piled on top of the pistons and in the sidewalls of the cylinder. Gets a little crazy.

So enough of what it is. Where I am going.

Half cafe. I'm building this bike for me and my wife. So needs a 2-up seat. But also building it for my Dad. My Dad has not shut up about the Bonneville since I was a kid. He has made these bikes into god like bikes in my mind. This bike is on a pedestal. So while this bike is going to be my project, its pretty much going to be my Dad's summer whip to cruise around on.

Issues:

My (passenger side?) left exhaust port has stripped threads. I have done some research and found out about an over sized spigot. Who has done this? What are my options? I have a machinist friend who asked if he could put the head in a lathe. Not possible. Helicoil?

Sludge Trap. This sombitch is going to be the end of me. I have ability and means of taking it apart and putting back together successfully without blowing it up later. The hold back is budget. If I ensure that the crank spins...am I commited to oil changes every few thousand miles? I'm ok with that.

Honing and pistons. Whats the PROPER process to matching pistons and cylinders? Cylinder measurement, Piston purchase, Piston Measure, Cylinder Honing? I've been doing it a bit half assed with my last projects. Old dirtbikes haven't mattered. But I'd like to do this better.

Any input into this bike, even with things I haven't mentioned, let me know! Any insight is always useful, unless you're a know it all prick. But I'll still respect your opinion. Hah!

Link to my photo folder:
I'll update photos in the thread, but I'll keep my photobucket account updated with all my pictures.

 

[GrandPaulZ]

Exhaust port has stripped threads.
Sludge Trap.
Honing and pistons.

Welcome to the forum!

I would have a welder CAREFULLY clean & weld up only the damaged threads, and only to a bit thicker than the thread peaks. Then cut (4) 1/4" slots in the old one and use it as a threading tap to re-thread the exhaust hole. get a new replacement spigot (double check that the threads match before you goof 'em up again).

Do the sludge trap clean-out OR worry every time you run the engine. PERIOD. The condition of the engine as you describe it leaves absolutely no doubt that to do otherwise would be a waste of most of the time and money you are about to put into the engine. Furthermore, if the engine should fail catastrophically, there is a very real risk of the unlucky rider being seriously hurt, or worse.

You (or your machinist) need to carefully scrape and clean the bores to measure them with an inside micrometer and compare those measurements to the specs in the shop manual. If a careful visual inspection reveals any significant scars or scratches, the greatest scratch/scar depth will determine the appropriate oversize rebore. Next, order the pistons. When they come in, the cylinders need to be bored to .0045 greater total diameter than the new piston skirt diameter; so, consider that measurement in determining how much to overbore. Standard available oversize pistons are .020, .040 and .060; .080 are available but not used often due to thin cylinder walls.. (Ring end gap should be verified and carefully cut to .012 as required)

Sounds like a boatload of fun!

 

[Mr.Pete]

If the main bearings are rusted,you're definitely goig in for new main bearings and a sludge-trap clean.The timing-side main ball-bearing must have C3 internal clearance.The drive-side roller has "normal" CN internal clearance.Depending how much you want to thrash it later,you might consider TUFTRIDING the crank:it will last 10 times longer before it breaks or fails crack-test.It will also wear less.

Hone the cylinders with 180 grit,and measure the wear.If it's less than 0.011" bigger at the most worn part (just below top of the cylinder) than the bottom of piston skirts,you can get by with a ring job.It will still run fine and not burn oil.

The ring gap will probably be bigger than the minimum 0.010" if the bore has any wear.It won't matter even if it's 0.030".I would still make the 2nd compression ring gap about 0.004" bigger than the top ring gap.It improves compression and power and reduces oil-burning.Do a search on piston rings and ring-bedding.

If there is still some trace of thread in the exhaust port,you can easily enough fit an oversize spigot.There was a thread on this at britbike.com about 2 months ago,where a member chased the thread using a tool made from a countersunk allen-head screw to open up the tight part of the thread until the new spigot fitted.I gather it was all done on an assembled bike.

I might have blown the budget on the TUFTRIDING.Use the old big-end shells to recover some of that money if they look OK.They never wear out if they have oil.

Be careful of what you read in the manual.Eg:conrod nut torque was reduced to 22ft-lbs (dry threads),in June '69 with the introduction of UNF threads.Dealers received a service bulletin,but the previous 28 ft-lbs torque setting remained un-revised in all 650 manuals.I prefer to lubricate the rod-bolt threads and measure 0.004"-0.005" elastic bolt extension to get correct bolt tension.
It can be a mistake to replace rod bolts,unless you upgrade to ARP bolts.Any other replacements currently being made are nowhere near as strong as the originals that you have already.

Avoid milling the head surface under any circumstance.Pushrod tube seal crush should remain 0.030"-0.040",to avoid bending the head.

 

[runt262]

Thanks for the responses guys! Gave it a good read and made sure I understood everything you guys were saying. Thanks for the warm welcome too.

The sludge trap. I am going to crack the casing no matter what now. I was considering just taking everything apart aside from the main cases if everything spun. But if I'm going to spend enough time to tear the thing apart, why not inspect everything with a fine tooth comb. The bike won't be on the road until next summer anyway. I have the time to spread the engine over the winter. So I'll be tearing the sludge trap out sometime in the next couple of weeks and checking the condition of it. I also agree with what you're saying, Paul, about laying the bike down and having the worst happen after the engine explodes. I've got to think that everything I'm doing internally is cheap insurance compared to the worst case scenario.

I'm looking forward to checking out what my cylinder walls look like. Been craving the this kind of attention to detail. I'll post up some numbers and figures once I start getting everything measured out.

Exhaust spigot, I think I am going to be trying out the oversized spigot. Seems like the most reversible option for now. If it doesn't work out, then I'll be doing some more work to it. There are quite a few threads left on the head, just not enough to thread in and run.

Pete, I think steel hardening won't be needed on this project. Great idea, but I don't think I'll be romping on it that hard over the next few years. It wont be seeing any track time, and I'm pretty docile on the roads. It might be an idea if I end up rebuilding it again years down the road, if its still in my hands then. But a bit out of budget for now.

My next hurdle is going to be suppliers. New to the triumph world, I actually have no idea where I should be getting parts. Local guys are going to be an arm and a leg and cater to newer Triumphs. Let's figure I'm only looking for engine rebuild stuff and ignoring the rest of the bike, where do I go? I haven't even got a shop manual...yikes!

Thanks again for the great head start gents!

 

[loctitekid]

My next hurdle is going to be suppliers. New to the triumph world, I actually have no idea where I should be getting parts. Local guys are going to be an arm and a leg and cater to newer Triumphs. Let's figure I'm only looking for engine rebuild stuff and ignoring the rest of the bike, where do I go? I haven't even got a shop manual...yikes!

Thanks again for the great head start gents!

Look in the Technical tips and Tricks subforum http://www.triumphrat.net/vintage-technical-tips-and-tricks/192241-on-line-manual-links.html
for links to on line manuals.

Classicbikes.biz has an on line repair manual for 1968 650s.
Bigdcycle.com has a parts manual for your model.

I am afraid I can't help a lot with parts suppliers; I look mostly for pre unit stuff. There are many reputable on-line suppliers nowadays, and I find prices reasonable compared with prices for more modern bikes.

Good luck with your project. A very desirable model.

 

[GrandPaulZ]

By the way, that top shot is going to make a great "before" picture, with the excellent shiny "after" picture below it!

"Most Improved 2013" candidate...

 

[runt262]

By the way, that top shot is going to make a great "before" picture, with the excellent shiny "after" picture below it!

"Most Improved 2013" candidate...

I'd rather use this picture for my beginning...this is where I picked it up.

I also have a few questions about some parts that I have. I have a gas tank that everyone keeps telling me is not stock, and I am confused about my pipes. The tank seems to be a Triumph, but maybe not the correct year. The pipes seem like they're an off year too. Anyway, any input is greatly appreciated.

 

[GrandPaulZ]

I can't tell what's wrong with the tank, as long as the tail of the tank almost touches the seat, with the mounting tab hidden under the nose of the seat; and as long as the cut-out underneath is large enough to house the coils when properly mounted, I don't see how it could be wrong.

Those are aftermarket mufflers, not original to the bike.

 

[Redmoggy]

Tank is the larger version from a TR6R, not really a bad thing. Should have a slimline tank, these are easily identified as the front mounts are visible as being welded into the tank sides.

Nice project should turn out nice.

Rod

 

[runt262]

I like the idea of a larger tank. My Dad kept telling me that something about it didn't look completely Bonneville. The kneepad scallops didn't seem to be deep enough. The previous owner's son kept telling me that the tank was replaced at some point.

But knowing those pipes aren't stock just gives me more of a reason to get rid of those junky things. Wasn't completely happy about the look of those at all.

I'm going to be doing a lot of work in the next few weeks. I'm going to be measuring everything out and replicating everything in CAD. I have a few ideas for this thing to bring it to a resto-mod-cafe thing. There are going to be a bit of carbon fiber goodies on this bike. I'll keep the thread updated with pictures and progress.

 

[GrandPaulZ]

I've done the '68 bonnie in CAD, although not an engineering drawing. You want a copy? e-mail me [email protected]

 

[Redmoggy]

For a resto flavour, these tanks look real good in a 68 style paint sceme.

 

[runt262]

Well it's been a little while since I had an update. I've got everything torn apart, except the engine.

I haven't moved past the clutch. I am still soaking those seized clutch screws. Small thing to make a little tool to take them out, but just another thing I haven't got around to.

The more I take the bike apart, the more I find that they took decent care of it while it was being ridden. The frame isnt scraped, not dinged or rusty by any means. Might not strip the paint and repaint it. Seems to be in savable condition. Check at least the chrome. Quick polish. Left is unclean right is polished.

Flipped the bars upside down to see what it looks like. I like the look. Going to definitely build some clip on's. I like the low look on this frame.

Anyway, if you see anything I should be looking at more in depth, definitely let me know. I've got to tear my forks apart and check the brakes still, so I still have more to inspect.

Let me know if you want me to post a few more pictures. I don't want to overload the thread with useless ones.

 

[GrandPaulZ]

Funny you should mention it, in almost 10 years, I have seen fewer "useless pictures" in this forum than I have fingers on my left hand.

It's amazing what 0000 steel wool can do the few chrome bits on a classic Triumph, as long as they aren't rusted through...

 

[runt262]

So, its been a little while(again) since I have updated. Been travelling for work a lot lately, but I've still been plugging along on the project. Lost my space in the garage where I was originally tearing my bike down, but started doing some cleaning and stripping in the basement.

So what I have done since last update, I bought a 1/6 scale model. Woohoo! Cool little thing. If I have the patience I might modify this thing to look like how I want my bike to look when finished. I haven't been delving too much into doing a CAD model of my bike just yet. At work, we have 3D laser scanners where I can just spend a few hours scanning and have an accurate model of the frame and parts. We'll see how that turns out.

Engine has been stagnant. Paused on the teardown so I can focus on getting a rolling chassis. It's a bit easier to get the large pieces out of the way then focus on the engine. Don't want to be mixing up nuts and bolts.

Stripped the frame and laid it all out. Everything is in pieces now. I'll post some before and afters. I focused a lot on my wheels so far. Cleaned the chrome up, but not so much the spokes yet. Those are tedious. Just focusing on getting the majority of the rust off of there. Picture dump below

I cleaned up the headlight, speedo and tach parts. Tore it all apart and cleaned it all with steel wool. Results below.

I started stripping the frame so I could do a total repaint. Repainting everything. Decided that it would look a ton better as an entirely fresh bike.
Used this stripper:
http://www.homedepot.ca/wcsstore/HomeDepotCanada/images/catalog/Super_Remover_1L_4.jpg
Worked like a charm. Results below.

So that's where I am right now. I am going to be travelling to Montreal all of next week and I find myself really bored in the hotel room, and I have already explored the city a lot. So, since I'm driving there, I'm taking my engine and tearing the entire thing apart in my "Marriott Garage". Should be fun.
If you want to take a look at any of my other pictures that I haven't loaded in here, Take a look at my Triumph folders in my photobucket:
http://s107.beta.photobucket.com/user/runt262/library/Triumph
http://s107.beta.photobucket.com/user/runt262/library/Triumph/Triumph2

 

[runt262]

I was able to spend a little more time on my engine. All the frame work has paused until I can get to my parents heated garage and give it a few coats. Took a business trip to Montreal and brought along my boat anchor to tear apart in the hotel room. Pictures of my dusty crusty engine.

Looks cozy

Everything seems to be in good condition

Had to flip it over to concentrate on the clutch to get the main shaft out, and found out that my clutch looks bad, but looks worse taken apart.

More work tonight, and finally got the entire clutch off with an empty transmission now.

Poked around the bottom end and I'm happy I am tearing this completely apart. There is dirt and crud everywhere in the bottom end. Hard to take a good picture of it all, but there is caked gunk everywhere on the bottom end

So tomorrow, I have to run out and get a few sockets to move forward. Don't have the proper size on the forward Camshaft nut and the crank nut. Also need to get a puller to pull the magnet and crank sprocket off of the crank shaft. Anyway, more pictures if anyone is interested is in the link in the above post.

 

[Garioch43]

I can only imagine what the maid thinks when she cleans your room!

 

[GrandPaulZ]

Absolutely the right thing to do, tearing it all down to the crank, in this case.

Excellent work!

 

[DAVE M]

locking the engine to get the engine sprocket off and rotor will be interesting, but you can do it by slipping a rod through the little ends and supporting it on some scrap aluminium.

It's easier if you have a vice/had the engine in a vice

 

[runt262]

Yeah I kind of thought about how difficult taking the sprockets after I took the transmission off. Are the sprocket and the rotor threaded onto the crank? I thought they were pressed on and needed to be pulled off?

The drive sprocket on the back though, I planned on making a wrench with some spare chain and weld it to a wrench.