Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner
61 - 80 of 120 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,823 Posts
Have the hardness checked on the cam followers. Megacycle can verify the cams. If not up to '69 and later spec (Nitrided), you'll either need them hardened, of re-open your oilway and get drilled followers.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #62 ·
Have the hardness checked on the cam followers. Megacycle can verify the cams. If not up to '69 and later spec (Nitrided), you'll either need them hardened, of re-open your oilway and get drilled followers.
Got it. Things get complicated on these beasts.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #63 ·
Cams and Bushings.

I ordered from Classic British Spares a set of sintered bronze bushings for my 1969 T120R. 3 of the bushings seemed to be right on as to size, etc. 1 of the bushings, the drive side intake bushing, was longer than necessary. I contact CBS and they said longer would provide more support and didn’t need to be cut down. However this length would interfere with the breather system. I revealed this to CBS again and they said to switch this bushing out with the exhaust drive side bushing, since it was shorter. Of course the exhaust drive side bushing did not have an oil hole drilled. So CBS said I should drill an oil hole and then debur and ream. I have not checked out if using the much longer bushing on the drive side exhaust cam would interfere with anything else. Has anyone had a similar experience with new cam bushings on this kind of motor?

Also, upon further examination of my cams I found some pitting. On the exhaust is a large pit on the lobe, and a smaller pit on the intake lobe. I’d be interested in knowing if these pits are a serious concern?
Tool Cylinder Font Auto part Metal
Household hardware Cylinder Tool Nickel Gas
Tool Cylinder Household hardware Nickel Auto part


Thanks to all!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #65 ·
Is this a problem?!

So I finally got all my engine cases clean enough to send to the hydro blaster (perhaps they look good enough without this blasting?) Anyway, when finally getting the head clean I noticed this breach in the right side exhaust portion of the head/chamber. So you can see there is an insert in this space (which the head bold goes through), so I’m not sure if this is OK to use or what. It looks as though this may have been there a long time. Any comments are appreciated.

Also, I live in the Northern Virginia area and am wondering if any members know of someone who could rebuild my head (if it is indeed ok to use). I know of a place in California to send it with a long wait list, and also have someone in Ohio who was given as a reference. I’m wondering who may be more local to me.
Photograph Light Motor vehicle Rim Automotive design
Automotive tire Wood Grey Rim Automotive wheel system


Thank you.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,823 Posts
DO NOT TAKE THIS AS SOLID TECHNICAL EXPERTISE. This is only what I would do, with MY OWN stuff. I would never advise this, or do it for a paying client (thankfully, I'm retired)

I'd use some 2-part clear JB Weld, set the head where the stuff can creep in as it cures.

One port at a time, let cure to label guidelines. Let cure in a reasonably warm environment for an extra day.

Then take a Dremel emery bit and shape it reasonably smooth, removing as little as possible to get there.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #67 ·
DO NOT TAKE THIS AS SOLID TECHNICAL EXPERTISE. This is only what I would do, with MY OWN stuff. I would never advise this, or do it for a paying client (thankfully, I'm retired)

I'd use some 2-part clear JB Weld, set the head where the stuff can creep in as it cures.

One port at a time, let cure to label guidelines. Let cure in a reasonably warm environment for an extra day.

Then take a Dremel emery bit and shape it reasonably smooth, removing as little as possible to get there.
Thanks GrandPaulZ. I imagine that this has been run with it like it is. It does not seem like damage or wear. So it doesn't seem like there would be a safety or longevity issue with the way it is, perhaps a performance issue since it might impact exhaust flow a bit. I'm considering leaving it as it is if this is the case. I've got to think others have seen this exact defect.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #68 ·
Soon, hopefully, I will be installing my new cam bushings, as well as new bearings in my cases. I suppose this will sound like I am a true novice at this (I am), but can anyone explain camshaft and crankshaft float? I’m most interested in making sure that I understand this before installing and reaming my cam bushings. Thanks for any helpful comments.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,823 Posts
I imagine that this has been run with it like it is. It does not seem like damage or wear. So it doesn't seem like there would be a safety or longevity issue with the way it is, perhaps a performance issue since it might impact exhaust flow a bit. I'm considering leaving it as it is if this is the case. I've got to think others have seen this exact defect.

Soon, hopefully, I will be installing my new cam bushings, as well as new bearings in my cases. I suppose this will sound like I am a true novice at this (I am), but can anyone explain camshaft and crankshaft float? I’m most interested in making sure that I understand this before installing and reaming my cam bushings. Thanks for any helpful comments.
You MIGHT get slight oil weepage at the head bolt joint where that sleeve goes.

"Float" is the amount of free end-to-end play.

"Runout" is up and down free movement, usually more critical than Float.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #70 ·
You MIGHT get slight oil weepage at the head bolt joint where that sleeve goes.

"Float" is the amount of free end-to-end play.

"Runout" is up and down free movement, usually more critical than Float.
Thanks GrandPaulZ. This I can understand!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,592 Posts
Hi,
breach in the right side exhaust portion of the head/chamber. So you can see there is an insert in this space (which the head bold goes through), so I’m not sure if this is OK to use
PO was trying some port work to go with the big-bore kit? Not sure about 650's but the problem is so common on triples, afaict pretty-much any tuner expects to break through the head bolt holes and sleeve them.

I'll name-check @DMadigan Dave, he should see an alert next time he signs into the Forum and hopefully he can advise. Otherwise, two guys in the US who can almost-certainly advise are Triple Tecs.

Hth.

Regards,
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #72 ·
Hi,

PO was trying some port work to go with the big-bore kit? Not sure about 650's but the problem is so common on triples, afaict pretty-much any tuner expects to break through the head bolt holes and sleeve them.

I'll name-check @DMadigan Dave, he should see an alert next time he signs into the Forum and hopefully he can advise. Otherwise, two guys in the US who can almost-certainly advise are Triple Tecs.

Hth.

Regards,
I'll be interested in what Dave says if he weighs in. Thanks.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #73 ·
I am going to replace some (or all) of my engine fasteners as well as engine to frame fasteners. I would think using stainless fasteners would be a good idea, however I am wondering if there is any issue with this (stainless to aluminum)? Also, I see replacement fasteners on a number of vintage internet sites, but I’m wondering if some members have comments on the best places to buy these replacement fasteners? Thanks to all.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,592 Posts
Hi,
replace some (or all) of my engine fasteners as well as engine to frame fasteners. I would think using stainless fasteners would be a good idea, however I am wondering if there is any issue with this (stainless to aluminum)?
First used stainless fasteners in 1980. Still got 'em. I haven't used anything but stainless for decades. (y) (y) (y)

The only 'issue' I've ever had was with a type of self-locking nut called a Staytite. They have two spring steel strips in one end; couple of times I didn't assemble with the advised Copaslip, the nut seized on the bolt. :( Afaict, miniscule bits of swarf were trapped between the strips and the adjacent thread, that weren't always removed even with thorough degreasing; :( first time a bolt thread ran between the strips and the thread, it loosened the swarf, which seized the nut on the bolt. :mad: Once I started to use Copaslip just the first time a given nut was used, no problem since. (y)

see replacement fasteners on a number of vintage internet sites, but I’m wondering if some members have comments on the best places to buy these replacement fasteners?
Dunno what it's like in the US but I've used what's now Dave & Richard Middleton since about the mid-1980's (then it was Dave on his own, Richard was a twinkle in his eye ... :)). Off-the-shelf fasteners, he/they clean up the heads, so a set of - say - primary case screws all look the same, even though they're different lengths, could've come from different makers and therefore could originally have had different patterns on the heads. Also ime, if I lose a screw from a set thirty-odd years later and order a replacement, the new one looks exactly the same as the thirty-odd-year-old ones. (y)

Hth.

Regards,
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #75 ·
Hi,

First used stainless fasteners in 1980. Still got 'em. I haven't used anything but stainless for decades. (y) (y) (y)

The only 'issue' I've ever had was with a type of self-locking nut called a Staytite. They have two spring steel strips in one end; couple of times I didn't assemble with the advised Copaslip, the nut seized on the bolt. :( Afaict, miniscule bits of swarf were trapped between the strips and the adjacent thread, that weren't always removed even with thorough degreasing; :( first time a bolt thread ran between the strips and the thread, it loosened the swarf, which seized the nut on the bolt. :mad: Once I started to use Copaslip just the first time a given nut was used, no problem since. (y)


Dunno what it's like in the US but I've used what's now Dave & Richard Middleton since about the mid-1980's (then it was Dave on his own, Richard was a twinkle in his eye ... :)). Off-the-shelf fasteners, he/they clean up the heads, so a set of - say - primary case screws all look the same, even though they're different lengths, could've come from different makers and therefore could originally have had different patterns on the heads. Also ime, if I lose a screw from a set thirty-odd years later and order a replacement, the new one looks exactly the same as the thirty-odd-year-old ones. (y)

Hth.

Regards,
Stuart, thanks for the information. There seems to be all kinds of conflicting information about using anti-seize on threads, including what type to use on what types of metal. Good to know the Copaslip has worked well for you. I've taken a look at D. Middleton & Son site for fasteners. I notice they have kits for some bikes, like Norton. Do you happen to know if they have some sort of kit for a full engine rebuild? Or perhaps one needs to figure what bits he needs himself? I'll reach out to them on this. Thanks.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,592 Posts
Hi,
seems to be all kinds of conflicting information about using anti-seize on threads, including what type to use on what types of metal.
Dave's always advised just Copaslip as long as I've been buying from him. That said, the Staytite nuts are the only one of two places I've experienced the seizing problem - for many, many years I fitted only plain or domed nuts, never had seizing problems.

The other place I experienced a couple of seizing problems early on were special parts I'd had made, that therefore had cut (rather than rolled) threads. Dave advised cut threads in free-machining stainless grades need a bit of extra TLC - tap or die has to be super-sharp (almost new) but can still leave tiny slivers of swarf attached to thread peaks, that detach and cause seizure. 🤬 From Dave's advice, I simply give new parts a thorough degreasing then a stiff rubbing on a brass rotary brush and then another thorough degreasing. No problems since. :)

D. Middleton & Son
notice they have kits for some bikes, like Norton. Do you happen to know if they have some sort of kit for a full engine rebuild?
'Fraid not for Triumphs. Dave used to do 'em years ago but stopped - said he got too many returns asking for longer/shorter bolts, different nuts, more washers, blah. :(

one needs to figure what bits he needs himself?
'Fraid so.

I replaced particularly my T160's fasteners a few at a time as I could afford it. I reached a point where I'd replaced a lot - but not all - fasteners, I found myself ordering fasteners I'd replaced already ... 😖 I ended up having to go over the bikes making a list of every fastener on both bikes but in an order that was logical to me rather than how the parts book listed them.

I listed the fasteners in small groups - say, a wheel, or a fender, or the carbs. Time-consuming but, in the end, less time-consuming than buying parts I'd replaced already while forgetting parts I hadn't. :rolleyes: And, thereafter, I could decide I was going to replace all the fasteners on one part; for the order to Dave, I could group all the different bolts together, all the different nuts together, all washers together, etc.; when the order arrived (usually just as a bag of everything together), I also had a list to fit the various connected bits together for each place on a bike. (y)

I made my personal list pre-www; luckily, the T160 parts book had been compiled at the ex-BSA works and Small Heath put fastener data in its parts books, (y) unlike Meriden. 😠 You can use Stainless Steel Fasteners for fastener data by part number from a Triumph parts book - quicker scrolling up and down it than looking up each part number individually on Fastener Database. Nevertheless, I strongly advise actually measuring fasteners either for any personal list or before ordering - both parts books and the StainlessBits spreadsheet contain errors, Greg's database is from the StainlessBits spreadsheet, he's fixed a lot of the errors but not all of them (he'll want to know of any you find).

Btw, the Middletons make very few parts that aren't fasteners but, even then, I don't think they list, say, the big front or rear wheel spindle nuts. I bought these from Will Horgan - Stainless Classics - he also does stuff like the spindles themselves, brake rods, etc. (y)

Hth.

Regards,
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #77 ·
Hi,

Dave's always advised just Copaslip as long as I've been buying from him. That said, the Staytite nuts are the only one of two places I've experienced the seizing problem - for many, many years I fitted only plain or domed nuts, never had seizing problems.

The other place I experienced a couple of seizing problems early on were special parts I'd had made, that therefore had cut (rather than rolled) threads. Dave advised cut threads in free-machining stainless grades need a bit of extra TLC - tap or die has to be super-sharp (almost new) but can still leave tiny slivers of swarf attached to thread peaks, that detach and cause seizure. 🤬 From Dave's advice, I simply give new parts a thorough degreasing then a stiff rubbing on a brass rotary brush and then another thorough degreasing. No problems since. :)


'Fraid not for Triumphs. Dave used to do 'em years ago but stopped - said he got too many returns asking for longer/shorter bolts, different nuts, more washers, blah. :(


'Fraid so.

I replaced particularly my T160's fasteners a few at a time as I could afford it. I reached a point where I'd replaced a lot - but not all - fasteners, I found myself ordering fasteners I'd replaced already ... 😖 I ended up having to go over the bikes making a list of every fastener on both bikes but in an order that was logical to me rather than how the parts book listed them.

I listed the fasteners in small groups - say, a wheel, or a fender, or the carbs. Time-consuming but, in the end, less time-consuming than buying parts I'd replaced already while forgetting parts I hadn't. :rolleyes: And, thereafter, I could decide I was going to replace all the fasteners on one part; for the order to Dave, I could group all the different bolts together, all the different nuts together, all washers together, etc.; when the order arrived (usually just as a bag of everything together), I also had a list to fit the various connected bits together for each place on a bike. (y)

I made my personal list pre-www; luckily, the T160 parts book had been compiled at the ex-BSA works and Small Heath put fastener data in its parts books, (y) unlike Meriden. 😠 You can use Stainless Steel Fasteners for fastener data by part number from a Triumph parts book - quicker scrolling up and down it than looking up each part number individually on Fastener Database. Nevertheless, I strongly advise actually measuring fasteners either for any personal list or before ordering - both parts books and the StainlessBits spreadsheet contain errors, Greg's database is from the StainlessBits spreadsheet, he's fixed a lot of the errors but not all of them (he'll want to know of any you find).

Btw, the Middletons make very few parts that aren't fasteners but, even then, I don't think they list, say, the big front or rear wheel spindle nuts. I bought these from Will Horgan - Stainless Classics - he also does stuff like the spindles themselves, brake rods, etc. (y)

Hth.

Regards,
Thanks Stuart. For the advice on anti-seize and all. Since I've got all my engine bolts and engine to frame fasteners off now, I'll have to measure them while it's easy. I've found some stainless kits out there, but mainly for the primary cover replacing the cheese head screws to hex. I remember when the T160 came out, followed by the Honda 750. Then the race was on. I just heard back from Richard Middleton that they don't have a kit. Nice to have a shop like that where you can actually hear from the owner. Cheers.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,592 Posts
Hi,
I remember when the T160 came out, followed by the Honda 750.
That was autumn(?) 1968 for the '69 model year, the triples were the Triumph T150:-

... and BSA Rocket 3:-

... sadly, where the CB750 always had a 5-speed 'box and at least a front disc brake, the '69 Triumph and BSA triples had 4-speeds and a front drum brake; Honda sold something like 30,000 CB750's in '69, Triumph and BSA couldn't sell 20% of that number of triples. :cry:

It took BSA/Triumph to early 1972 to fit T150's with a reliable 5-speed 'box (BSA the marque pretty-much ended about the same time) and to early 1973 to fit a front disc, just before BSA the company was forced to merge with the Norton-Villiers. BSA/Triumph had been developing what became the T160 since 1972 but, thanks to all the financial problems, it was the merger's bastard child - Norton-Villiers-Triumph - that put it into production, in late 1974:-

... when the British magazine Bike tested in for May 1975, the tester asked the rhetorical question, "Wonder where Triumph and Honda would be now if the Trident had looked like this in 1969?" ...

Nonetheless, sadly, still too little too late, NVT started collapsing in mid-1975, the last T160 engine was built in March 1976, the bike was built in early April, the ex-BSA Small Heath factory was empty by the end of April 1976. 😭

heard back from Richard Middleton
Nice to have a shop like that where you can actually hear from the owner.
(y)

Regards,
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #79 ·
Hi,

That was autumn(?) 1968 for the '69 model year, the triples were the Triumph T150:-

... and BSA Rocket 3:-

... sadly, where the CB750 always had a 5-speed 'box and at least a front disc brake, the '69 Triumph and BSA triples had 4-speeds and a front drum brake; Honda sold something like 30,000 CB750's in '69, Triumph and BSA couldn't sell 20% of that number of triples. :cry:

It took BSA/Triumph to early 1972 to fit T150's with a reliable 5-speed 'box (BSA the marque pretty-much ended about the same time) and to early 1973 to fit a front disc, just before BSA the company was forced to merge with the Norton-Villiers. BSA/Triumph had been developing what became the T160 since 1972 but, thanks to all the financial problems, it was the merger's bastard child - Norton-Villiers-Triumph - that put it into production, in late 1974:-

... when the British magazine Bike tested in for May 1975, the tester asked the rhetorical question, "Wonder where Triumph and Honda would be now if the Trident had looked like this in 1969?" ...

Nonetheless, sadly, still too little too late, NVT started collapsing in mid-1975, the last T160 engine was built in March 1976, the bike was built in early April, the ex-BSA Small Heath factory was empty by the end of April 1976. 😭


(y)

Regards,
Stuart, with regard to stainless fasteners, are you familiar with Triumph - motalia.co.uk (Motalia Ltd.) out of Norwich? It seems they have a searchable way to find Triumph fasteners by part number. Just wondering if you done any business with them?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter · #80 ·
I picked up my engine cases from Sean at Motorelic (MotoRelic – Motorelic | Custom Motorcycles & Fabrication) here in Northern Virginia. He vapor honed my engine cases, head and rocker boxes. I was considering not having this done since I had cleaned the cases quite nicely, but I’m really pleased with the results! Sean did a great job and he has some very cool builds in progress now.
Automotive tire Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Automotive fuel system Automotive design


I then drove my head down the road a bit to Rob at Virginia Vintage Cycle (Virginia Vintage Cycle). He was gracious to take a look at some of my problematic parts, especially my pitted cams and tappets. Looks like I’m in the market for new cams and tappets now as the pitting was too deep to consider then serviceable. Rob went over his head rebuilding process. He also took a look at the place in my head where the head bolt hole breaks through the inside of the head (and is plugged by a steel insert) and says he sees this on a lot of heads and is not a problem the way it is. He was putting several bikes together and offered me several build tips, specifically on a transmission he was installing - which will save me from some mistakes I was probably going to make. All this to say that he was very generous with his time and knowledge. He also has some very cool custom bikes in process as well as restorations and is very busy these days. Glad he could fit me in.
 
61 - 80 of 120 Posts
Top