[Dr. Zo]

Ignition off but keeps running.

OK, working to diagnose my engine/electrical issue. I have the pazon electronic ignition and the podtronics POD-1P-MAX regulator, rectifier with built in capacitor. I have one wire from the positive battery terminal that is fused. This fused wire is split into 2 power wires to 2 toggles. One toggle is my ignition toggle, and this is connected to: the coils, the podtronics regulator and the brake light. The second toggle is my lights toggle: power to the headlight and the tail light. So all these power wires are through the fused main wire from the positive terminal of the battery (I wired this with negative ground).

Today I started the bike as normal, with the ignition toggle on and the bike started right up. I then switched off the ignition toggle and it kept running. I then removed the fuse from the battery power wire and it continued to run. After I shut it down (with the gearbox/clutch) I was able to start it up without the ignition toggle powered on. After waiting a few minutes I was no longer able to do this, but was able to start it again once I had the power connected.

So I thought that perhaps the podtronics/rectifier was the reason it was running without the battery connection. But now I am not sure, because once I removed the fuse and it kept running, this meant the podtronics was no longer connected to the battery. By the way, the negative terminal of the battery has 2 wires connected - one to the podtronics and one to the common ground point on the frame where I ground everything else.

So I am not sure why it keep running, but it does. So I will need a kill switch, and am wondering to what should I connect a kill switch - thanks for any feedback!

 

[StuartMac]

Hi,

Ignition off but keeps running,
able to start it up without the ignition toggle powered on. After waiting a few minutes I was no longer able to do this

Capacitor in the Pod.

negative terminal of the battery has 2 wires connected - one to the podtronics
one wire from the positive battery terminal
split into 2 power wires to 2 toggles. One toggle is my ignition toggle, and this is connected to: the coils, the podtronics [my bold]

You've connected the Pod to the EI without a switch in between ...

Pod DC+ wire should be connected direct to battery +ve, and one of the Pod DC wires should have a fuse in it.

thought that perhaps the podtronics/rectifier was the reason it was running without the battery connection. But now I am not sure, because once I removed the fuse and it kept running, this meant the podtronics was no longer connected to the battery.

Once the engine is running, it doesn't have to be connected to the battery, the engine's spinning the alternator, the alternator produces enough power to charge the ignition coils, keeps the engine running. Also, the alternator will recharge the capacitor in the Pod.

ignition toggle
to what should I connect a kill switch

If the ignition toggle is on the handlebars - so you can reach it riding the bike - no worries about another switch.

Otoh, ignition toggle not on the handlebars, handlebars is where any bike maker that fits such a switch (including Triumph) fitted/fits it. Your bike having two separate ignition coils and being "negative ground":-

. The Pazon box Black wire's connected to one coil's -ve terminal.

. The Pazon box Red wire's connected to the other coil's +ve terminal. There's a second wire from this coil terminal to the ignition toggle. The kill switch should be in this latter wire.

negative terminal of the battery has 2 wires connected - one to the podtronics and one to the common ground point on the frame where I ground everything else.
one wire from the positive battery terminal that is fused

One thing you should get your head around is - irrespective of "ground" - DC negative is always the supply to components, DC positive is always the return from components to the supplier.

"Negative ground", I would never supply an EI from a "common ground point":-

. Because the power for every component on the bike could be passing through the single fuse by the positive battery terminal at the same time, this fuse must be high-rated - 15A.

. However, a 15A fuse will never save the EI box if, say, the primary resistance of a coil goes low and it draws high Amps. Coils' power is switched by an EI box transistor, all the Boyer-Bansden/Pazon/Wassell destructions say the power through the box shouldn't ever exceed 5A. So, again by definition, the EI box supply should have a low-rated - 5A - fuse in it.

. In addition, electronics are always at risk from spikes and other interference generated by other cheap electrical components. While it's difficult to isolate both EI supply and return from the rest of the bike's electronics:-

.. the only EI fitted OE on Triumphs - Lucas Rita - as standard the box had its own supply from battery -ve;

.. when I was doing my first bike rewire - 'positive ground' bike with a Rita fitted aftermarket - the guy who handled Rita sales and servicing for Lucas advised: low-rated fuse in the Rita box supply, box return connected direct to the battery +ve terminal;

.. fwiw, I've followed that advice of every bike I've rewired, never any 'random' ignition problems.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[Dr. Zo]

Thank you for the many comments and advice on my issue!

So, the issue has been resolved . . . with help from Mike Grage at The Bonneville Shop. I posed my questions to him and rather than summarize, here is what he wrote - Thanks Mike!!

I did have my red+ wire from the podtronics and my + wire to the coils on the same circuit. So even when the switch was in the off position and even when the battery was disconnected, power was still going to the coils from the regulator. I moved the red+ from the pazon to another (it’s own) circuit to the battery and all is well.

From Mike:
--
Hello Brian,

I had to draw out a wiring diagram to help me understand what’s going on here.

One question. Do you have the red (+) wire from the podtronics connected to the same ignition switch terminal as the coils? In other words, are they on the same side of the ignition switch? If so, that is the problem. Nothing is stopping the charging system from providing power to the coils. Moving the red wire to the other side of the ignition switch will fix it.

If that is not the case, and it continues to run with the ignition switch in the off position, the contacts inside the ignition switch are failing to open the circuit (cut power to coils). In other words it’s stuck in the on position. You can check it with a test light. With the key in the off position the test light should remain off (not even dim) when checking the terminal with the white wire.

Link for ignition switch: GENUINE LUCAS IGNITION SWITCH BODY TRIUMPH NORTON BSA PN# 30608 G 31403 G 31899 S45 60-0989

Personally, I like to make the power to the coils (white wire) run through a handlebar kill switch like the one in the link below in case the main ignition switch fails.

TRIUMPH NORTON BSA 2 WIRE KILL SWITCH BUTTON PN# 35835 LU35835

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Mike Grage
Technical and Customer Support

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Brian,

From
Mike Grage at The Bonneville Shop:-

Do you have the red (+) wire from the podtronics connected to the same ignition switch terminal as the coils? In other words, are they on the same side of the ignition switch? If so, that is the problem. Nothing is stopping the charging system from providing power to the coils.

one wire from the positive battery terminal
split into 2 power wires to 2 toggles. One toggle is my ignition toggle, and this is connected to: the coils, the podtronics [my bold]

You've connected the Pod to the EI without a switch in between ...
Pod DC+ wire should be connected direct to battery +ve

The "Pod DC+ wire" is the Pod's Red wire ...

I moved the red+ from the pazon to another (it’s own) circuit to the battery and all is well.

Not afaict ...:-

negative terminal of the battery has 2 wires connected - one to the podtronics and one to the common ground point on the frame where I ground everything else.

"everything else" including the Pazon White wire ...?

If yes, the Pazon White wire (supply) isn't switched, the Pazon Red wire isn't switched ... what's turning off the Pazon?

You posted already the Pod Black wire is connected to battery -ve; why would you not just connect the Pod Red wire to battery +ve? No reason for it to be connected anywhere else, no gain connecting it anywhere else.

Then, with one coil +ve terminal connected to the "ignition toggle", the Pazon Red wire can be connected to the same coil +ve terminal. This is exactly what's shown in the Pazon fitting instructions (and the related Boyer-Bransden and Wassell fitting instructions). Then turning off any ignition switch turns off the Pazon - similar to the previous paragraph, no reason to reinvent the wheel, no gain doing it.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[Dr. Zo]

Hi Brian,



The "Pod DC+ wire" is the Pod's Red wire ...


Not afaict ...:-


"everything else" including the Pazon White wire ...?

If yes, the Pazon White wire (supply) isn't switched, the Pazon Red wire isn't switched ... what's turning off the Pazon?

You posted already the Pod Black wire is connected to battery -ve; why would you not just connect the Pod Red wire to battery +ve? No reason for it to be connected anywhere else, no gain connecting it anywhere else.

Then, with one coil +ve terminal connected to the "ignition toggle", the Pazon Red wire can be connected to the same coil +ve terminal. This is exactly what's shown in the Pazon fitting instructions (and the related Boyer-Bransden and Wassell fitting instructions). Then turning off any ignition switch turns off the Pazon - similar to the previous paragraph, no reason to reinvent the wheel, no gain doing it.

Hth.

Regards,

Stuart,
In my writing I may have said pazon when I meant podtronics or vice versa.

I now have my Podtronics red + wire directly connected to the + battery terminal. The black Podtronics - ground wire is connected to my common ground (nothing is switched here). The pazon is connected as in the pazon instructions for negative ground with 2 coils - so the red wire of the pazon is connected to the + terminal of ignition coil #2. I have a wire that is switched and fused from the + terminal of the battery, and a wire from this is run to also connect with the + terminal of ignition coil #2. So this is where the pazon gets its power. Further the white wire of the pazon is connected to my common ground and the black wire is connected to the - terminal of ignition coil #1. With this set up when the ignition switch is on I get power to start the bike, and when I switch it off it kills the engine.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Brian,

In my writing I may have said pazon when I meant podtronics or vice versa.
I now have my Podtronics red + wire directly connected to the + battery terminal.

The black Podtronics - ground wire is connected to my common ground

Essentially, the alternator keeps the battery charged. So nothing gained not connecting both reg./rec. DC wires directly to corresponding battery terminals.

Otoh, circuits are most likely to fail at connections; additional connection at the "common ground" between Pod DC- and battery -ve doesn't serve any useful purpose so potential loss introducing that additional connection, particularly if the connection isn't insulated.

You haven't mentioned a fuse in either of the Pod's DC wires? The only things preventing a complete circuit from battery -ve through the Pod to battery +ve are the Pod's electronics. If they fail, it's a short; while the Pod (any reg./rec.) will be toast if they fail, without a fuse in one of the Pod's wires, so will the bike ...

pazon is connected as in the pazon instructions for negative ground with 2 coils
white wire of the pazon is connected to my common ground
red wire of the pazon is connected to the + terminal of ignition coil #2. I have a wire that is switched and fused from the + terminal of the battery, and a wire from this is run to also connect with the + terminal of ignition coil #2. So this is where the pazon gets its power.

Uh-uh:-

One thing you should get your head around is - irrespective of "ground" - DC negative is always the supply to components, DC positive is always the return from components to the supplier

. "the pazon gets its power" from its White wire.

. The Pazon box is a switch, its switches the power from the White wire on and off to the Black wire and the coils. For clarity, like any switch (e.g. your toggles), there isn't any polarity change through the Box between White and Black wires.

. In the slightly odd world of electronics, the Pazon Red wire only supplies the box's electronics, not the coils.

. "a wire that is ... fused [to] the + terminal of the battery" - as I have explained already in post #242:-

.. this fuse is common to all circuits on the bike so is necessarily high-rated (= 15A?);

.. Pazon fitting instructions tells you maximum coils current draw (5A?) so what good is a 15A(?) fuse; if you don't want something as simple as a coil going wrong to trash the Pazon electronics too, the Pazon White supply wire needs a 5A fuse in it;

.. in addition, I'd connect the fused Pazon White wire direct to battery -ve - not the "common ground" - to lessen the chances of interference from other more-cheaply-made electrical components.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[Dr. Zo]

Hi Brian,




Essentially, the alternator keeps the battery charged. So nothing gained not connecting both reg./rec. DC wires directly to corresponding battery terminals.

Otoh, circuits are most likely to fail at connections; additional connection at the "common ground" between Pod DC- and battery -ve doesn't serve any useful purpose so potential loss introducing that additional connection, particularly if the connection isn't insulated.

You haven't mentioned a fuse in either of the Pod's DC wires? The only things preventing a complete circuit from battery -ve through the Pod to battery +ve are the Pod's electronics. If they fail, it's a short; while the Pod (any reg./rec.) will be toast if they fail, without a fuse in one of the Pod's wires, so will the bike ...


Uh-uh:-

. "the pazon gets its power" from its White wire.

. The Pazon box is a switch, its switches the power from the White wire on and off to the Black wire and the coils. For clarity, like any switch (e.g. your toggles), there isn't any polarity change through the Box between White and Black wires.

. In the slightly odd world of electronics, the Pazon Red wire only supplies the box's electronics, not the coils.

. "a wire that is ... fused [to] the + terminal of the battery" - as I have explained already in post #242:-

.. this fuse is common to all circuits on the bike so is necessarily high-rated (= 15A?);

.. Pazon fitting instructions tells you maximum coils current draw (5A?) so what good is a 15A(?) fuse; if you don't want something as simple as a coil going wrong to trash the Pazon electronics too, the Pazon White supply wire needs a 5A fuse in it;

.. in addition, I'd connect the fused Pazon White wire direct to battery -ve - not the "common ground" - to lessen the chances of interference from other more-cheaply-made electrical components.

Hth.

Regards,

Stuart, as always, thanks for the great detail on this wiring issue!

 

[Dr. Zo]

Front brake squishy - So my rear brake is solid, but the front brake is squishy and just barely stops the front wheel when the brake lever is fully compressed. I put new shoes on the front and cleaned the drum with a wire sheet before assembling. I suppose I will be taking the wheel off to take a look in case I have assembled it improperly. I am wondering if any members have experience with this and if there is something simple I am missing. Thanks for any advice!

 

[StuartMac]

Hi,

I put new shoes on the front
front brake is squishy and just barely stops the front wheel when the brake lever is fully compressed.

Firstly, did you set the brake up on the bike with a second person or the unlisted so little-known "third hand" factory tool? Reason you need one or the other is one person needs both hands to turn both shoe spindles and press the shoes against the drum, the second person or the factory tool then adjusts the rod between the shoe levers so it's the correct length.

If you did one or the other of the above, the new linings will still need burnishing and could need arcing to the drum.

"arcing to the drum"
Drum brakes now being so rare in the automotive world, the new shoes mounted on the brake plate, it's highly-unlikely their circumference matches that of the drum. So when you apply the brake, only a tiny portion of possibly just one shoe is on the drum ...

There are still companies like Vintage Brake in the US who will turn linings to match a drum; however: a) you have to get wheel and brake to 'em; b) they are so few and far between you might wait months for wheel and brake to return.

The alternative is DIY:-

. First cover each lining surface with a marker - felt tip, coloured chalk, etc. - reassemble the brake in the drum, spin it, apply the brake a few times, dismantle the brake and look at the lining surfaces - where the marker remains, the lining surfaces haven't touched the drum ...

. Unless most of the marker has been removed by the brake applications, stick sandpaper to the drum's surface, reassemble the brake in the drum and spin it with the brake applied lightly. This will gradually remove the high spots in the lining, allowing more of the linings' surfaces to reach the drum, shown by more of the marker on the linings' surfaces disappearing.

. Risking stating the obvious, arcing the drum generates brake dust so wear a mask and, when dismantling the brake to check how much marker has been removed from the linings' surfaces, wipe out the drum with a damp cloth.

. Regrettably the above is a tedious process, but you'll be rewarded with a brake - my T150 has the same brake and, although ime it isn't as good as a disc, it takes a race circuit or mountain pass descent to make it fade, despite the T150 is a good 70 lb. heavier than a twin.

In case you haven't seen it, from the last sentence Section F7 of the Triumph '63-'70 650 workshop manual:-

... the lining ... the leading and trailing edges tapered off to the extent of 1/8 in. deep x 1/2 in. long.

"burnishing"
As I say, drum brakes are now so rare, searching the term on the internet only returns links to disc-brake pads. Can't now remember where I got my drum-brake burnishing procedure but, straight road with little traffic:-

. ten hard stops from 50 mph with a minute between each;

. ten minutes stopped for the brake to cool;

. ten hard stops from 70 mph with a minute between each;

... ime, you should feel the brake improving.

Front brake squishy

Ime, the front brake will still feel so when stopped but, as I say, the brake will have plenty of power when riding.

Btw, there's an old wives' tale about the light switch built into the cable makes the brake feel squishy. My T150's cable has always had one and it doesn't. Some time ago, @Rusty1 Chris dismantled one and posted photos.; it's fairly clear
"squishy" or not actually depends on the switch's insulating washer thickness ...

Hth.

Regards,

 

[13]

... 750 seems the way to go...

Had a '69 Bonneville recall bored to 740 if that makes sense - ran like a champ and wheelied at will in 4th.

 

[Dr. Zo]

Had a '69 Bonneville recall bored to 740 if that makes sense - ran like a champ and wheelied at will in 4th.

Well, this has a lot of power - surprising!

 

[13]

... surprising!

Surprised me too!

 

[Dr. Zo]

Hi,

Firstly, did you set the brake up on the bike with a second person or the unlisted so little-known "third hand" factory tool? Reason you need one or the other is one person needs both hands to turn both shoe spindles and press the shoes against the drum, the second person or the factory tool then adjusts the rod between the shoe levers so it's the correct length.

If you did one or the other of the above, the new linings will still need burnishing and could need arcing to the drum.

"arcing to the drum"
Drum brakes now being so rare in the automotive world, the new shoes mounted on the brake plate, it's highly-unlikely their circumference matches that of the drum. So when you apply the brake, only a tiny portion of possibly just one shoe is on the drum ...

There are still companies like Vintage Brake in the US who will turn linings to match a drum; however: a) you have to get wheel and brake to 'em; b) they are so few and far between you might wait months for wheel and brake to return.

The alternative is DIY:-

. First cover each lining surface with a marker - felt tip, coloured chalk, etc. - reassemble the brake in the drum, spin it, apply the brake a few times, dismantle the brake and look at the lining surfaces - where the marker remains, the lining surfaces haven't touched the drum ...

. Unless most of the marker has been removed by the brake applications, stick sandpaper to the drum's surface, reassemble the brake in the drum and spin it with the brake applied lightly. This will gradually remove the high spots in the lining, allowing more of the linings' surfaces to reach the drum, shown by more of the marker on the linings' surfaces disappearing.

. Risking stating the obvious, arcing the drum generates brake dust so wear a mask and, when dismantling the brake to check how much marker has been removed from the linings' surfaces, wipe out the drum with a damp cloth.

. Regrettably the above is a tedious process, but you'll be rewarded with a brake - my T150 has the same brake and, although ime it isn't as good as a disc, it takes a race circuit or mountain pass descent to make it fade, despite the T150 is a good 70 lb. heavier than a twin.

In case you haven't seen it, from the last sentence Section F7 of the Triumph '63-'70 650 workshop manual:-


"burnishing"
As I say, drum brakes are now so rare, searching the term on the internet only returns links to disc-brake pads. Can't now remember where I got my drum-brake burnishing procedure but, straight road with little traffic:-

. ten hard stops from 50 mph with a minute between each;

. ten minutes stopped for the brake to cool;

. ten hard stops from 70 mph with a minute between each;

... ime, you should feel the brake improving.


Ime, the front brake will still feel so when stopped but, as I say, the brake will have plenty of power when riding.

Btw, there's an old wives' tale about the light switch built into the cable makes the brake feel squishy. My T150's cable has always had one and it doesn't. Some time ago, @Rusty1 Chris dismantled one and posted photos.; it's fairly clear
"squishy" or not actually depends on the switch's insulating washer thickness ...

Hth.

Regards,

Stuart,

So I took the front brake off and here is how it looks. First off it seems like it is assembled properly as is - unless any member can find some fault that I can’t see. Any suggestions are welcome. I do see that one of the brake shoes seems to be having only about 10% contact while the other looks like about 60% contact with the drum. So, is this where I need to shave down the brake shoe high points so they will have more contact? If the brake looks assembled properly then perhaps this is the fix? Thanks for taking a look.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi,

seems like it is assembled properly

one of the brake shoes seems to be having only about 10% contact while the other looks like about 60% contact with the drum

this where I need to shave down the brake shoe high points so they will have more contact?

Yes.

View attachment 791114

Risking labouring my earlier point: the rod between the levers should be disconnected from one lever, someone should use two wrenches (one on each lever nut) to hold both shoes hard against the drum, while a second person adjusts the rod length 'til the hole in the disconnected end exactly matches the hole in the lever it was disconnected from.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[Dr. Zo]

Hi,







Yes.


Risking labouring my earlier point: the rod between the levers should be disconnected from one lever, someone should use two wrenches (one on each lever nut) to hold both shoes hard against the drum, while a second person adjusts the rod length 'til the hole in the disconnected end exactly matches the hole in the lever it was disconnected from.

Hth.

Regards,

Stuart, again thanks for risking your labour for me. I was trying to figure out how to adjust this properly!

 

[Dr. Zo]

I followed the advice of forum members and sanded the high spots off of the brake shoes until it looked like I had contact on most of the shoes. I then put the wheel back together and on the bike. Now I am finding what may be a contributing problem, something I wondered about when I was initially concerned about my front brake being “squishy.” It seems my brake cable - which is 47.5 inches long - is too long by about 1 to 1 1/2 inches. I am not able to adjust it to get enough pull on the brake arm. Has anyone had this problem before? I would think I should try to find another cable of shorter length rather than try to shorten it myself? Thanks for any comments!

 

[StuartMac]

Hi,

brake cable - which is 47.5 inches long

Fwiw, my T150 - same brake, standard pre-'73 US-market 'bars (as opposed to the '73-on apehangers), standard pre-'71 chromed steel brake lever with choke cable lever on the perch - cable 45" long overall, inner 37" long, handlebar lever adjuster currently unscrewed 3/8" (cable's done about a thousand miles).

is too long by about 1 to 1 1/2 inches. I am not able to adjust it to get enough pull on the brake arm.

If your "too long" is just the inner, might it be a conical-brake cable?

I would think I should try to find another cable of shorter length rather than try to shorten it myself?

How good's your cable soldering? Bearing in mind just the laundry bill if your soldering lets go when you're braking ...

Hth.

Regards,

 

[Dr. Zo]

Hi,

Fwiw, my T150 - same brake, standard pre-'73 US-market 'bars (as opposed to the '73-on apehangers), standard pre-'71 chromed steel brake lever with choke cable lever on the perch - cable 45" long overall, inner 37" long, handlebar lever adjuster currently unscrewed 3/8" (cable's done about a thousand miles).


If your "too long" is just the inner, might it be a conical-brake cable?


How good's your cable soldering? Bearing in mind just the laundry bill if your soldering lets go when you're braking ...

Hth.

Regards,

Seems like your cable would be what I need, as mine is about 2 inches or so too long. I obviously bought the wrong one - not the first time to do such a thing either.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi,

Seems like your cable would be what I need, as mine is about 2 inches or so too long.

If the cable you have is 47.5 inches over both nipples, I wouldn't have expected the extra length to have much effect, unless your bike has lower/narrower handlebars?

The significant dimension is the difference between outer and inner lengths.

I obviously bought the wrong one

Have a chat with Coventry Spares in MA? Don't think they'll sell direct as they're a wholesaler but they'll tell you dealers they supply.

Don't worry it's mostly Vincent stuff on the webpage, CS is John Healy, involved with Triumph since God was in short pants. John has Venhill cables made to his own patterns.

John himself is currently away ill (but on the mend ) but afaik there are a few others in the office.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[Dr. Zo]

Hi,

If the cable you have is 47.5 inches over both nipples, I wouldn't have expected the extra length to have much effect, unless your bike has lower/narrower handlebars?

The significant dimension is the difference between outer and inner lengths.


Have a chat with Coventry Spares in MA? Don't think they'll sell direct as they're a wholesaler but they'll tell you dealers they supply.

Don't worry it's mostly Vincent stuff on the webpage, CS is John Healy, involved with Triumph since God was in short pants. John has Venhill cables made to his own patterns.

John himself is currently away ill (but on the mend ) but afaik there are a few others in the office.

Hth.

Regards,

Brake cable end clamp clevis adapter Triumph BSA Norton Barnett USA Made

Brake cable end clamp clevis adapter Triumph BSA Norton Barnett USA Made

steadfastcycles.com

A member on another forum sent me the link above for a: brake cable end clamp clevis adapter that should allow me to use my cable.