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Discussion Starter · #381 ·
My reply below...

Santiago,



Thank you for following up!



1) I still own the bike



2)I ride it daily unless I need the space in my car, so approximately 10k miles per year on average. (Much less this year due to working from home often)



3)They feel spongy every time the lever is pulled for the first time. The pistons in the calipers are hanging. It is not a bleeding issue.



4) I do not have a dealer near me, and I do all my own service anyway



5) I have not serviced them other than bleeding the system as well as the master, which I do on all my vehicles regularly. The Brembos on other vehicles are solid as an oak. The Triumph, not so much.



6) No dealer receipts. I will bring it in for repair when they are committed to solving the actual issue.



7) You can absolutely take my bike and test it. As a racetrack instructor and paramedic, this issue needs to be resolved as soon as possible. Stopping a motorcycle capable of this much speed is life or death. I'll do whatever it takes.



Highest regards,
Well done! I actually just came here to post a screenshot of your FB announcement. Good luck to all!
 

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Discussion Starter · #382 ·
I have full and extensive documentation already put together that I had to submit for my lemon law claim. I filed with NHTSA, but never received a follow up or inquiry. If that documentation would help, send them my way. Thanks
 

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I too was contacted by NHTSA, and replied with that questionnaire, hopefully we can get a new reliable system installed soon. And I'm not talking about a Nissin!!!
 

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and maybe too soft/hard/flexible??? seals, that makes for the obvious pad retraction/long pull of the brakes. I can tell you, that I felt it and saw it while fixing this issue.
As I'm reading your post, seems that the seals could be the main culprit here. I noticed that every time I replace the pads (3rd time with same symptoms) they fail to retract resulting in a sticky rotation like having to apply significant leg force to move the bike forward/backwards. It's been a week with the new pads and it is slowly loosening up but by no means a "free spinning" wheel.
 

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I have full and extensive documentation already put together that I had to submit for my lemon law claim. I filed with NHTSA, but never received a follow up or inquiry. If that documentation would help, send them my way. Thanks
I know you must be exhausted after all you did to get your bike Lemon Law, but could you please contact Santiago and send all your info?
I will be more than glad to do it, but in this time and age you don't want a stranger handling private documentation holding your personal data.
Here is his info again:

Santiago Maldonado
Office Of Defects Investigation

Safety Defects Investigator
Department of Transportation
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

1200 New Jersey Avenue SE, Washington, DC 20590
Office: 202-366-7232 Cell: 443-655-6524
[email protected]
 

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As I'm reading your post, seems that the seals could be the main culprit here. I noticed that every time I replace the pads (3rd time with same symptoms) they fail to retract resulting in a sticky rotation like having to apply significant leg force to move the bike forward/backwards. It's been a week with the new pads and it is slowly loosening up but by no means a "free spinning" wheel.
I think most Brembo M4's suffer from tight pistons/seals, both my bikes do anyway, and the pads always feel they are slightly dragging especially with new pads fitted, but I can't see how the pads being close (or kissing) the disc would cause a soft first pull, surely it would have the opposite effect.
Both my M4 equipped bikes feel the same as regards piston tightness but the lever feel is much better on my 675R compared with the Thruxton, even though the brakes work perfectly fine, so I don't see any actual evidence that its the seals, pistons, or even the calipers at fault, I'm pretty confident if I swapped the calipers on my two bikes the brake feel would stay the same on both.
In fact different people have claimed improvements (sometimes only temporary) by changing nearly every part of the braking system without any definitive conclusions.
 

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I think most Brembo M4's suffer from tight pistons/seals, both my bikes do anyway, and the pads always feel they are slightly dragging especially with new pads fitted, but I can't see how the pads being close (or kissing) the disc would cause a soft first pull, surely it would have the opposite effect.
Both my M4 equipped bikes feel the same as regards piston tightness but the lever feel is much better on my 675R compared with the Thruxton, even though the brakes work perfectly fine, so I don't see any actual evidence that its the seals, pistons, or even the calipers at fault, I'm pretty confident if I swapped the calipers on my two bikes the brake feel would stay the same on both.
In fact different people have claimed improvements (sometimes only temporary) by changing nearly every part of the braking system without any definitive conclusions.
Obviously, you are not understanding or visualizing the problem.
The issue is not new or slightly worn pads; it's the piston being pulled/retracted. When the seal deflects upon pressing the brake lever (hydraulic pressure), they allow the piston to slide out. These M4 seals, in combo with rough surface pistons, are not allowing this to happen. When you press the lever again (later) the piston has to do all the travel again and hence the soft first pull. This is naturally augmented, when the pads are worn.
Go back and read the first 2-3 pages and the last 4-5 pages, to understand the problem that has been discussed at nauseum.
Every time you put new pads, the brakes will dragg a little at first, but the lever should NEVER bottom out.
I have never experienced that on my 1988 Hurricane and 2004 GSXR. This problem with the M4 is well know to other brands too.
As far as your conclusions, you are wrong.
 

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As I'm reading your post, seems that the seals could be the main culprit here. I noticed that every time I replace the pads (3rd time with same symptoms) they fail to retract resulting in a sticky rotation like having to apply significant leg force to move the bike forward/backwards. It's been a week with the new pads and it is slowly loosening up but by no means a "free spinning" wheel.
Be mindful how you tighten the calipers in place. I can't remember where I read it, but there is a way of setting the calipers in space to be tighten.
You could have a cocked caliper causing that kind of dragg.
Loosen the calipers bolts, hand tighten them, press the brake lever, this will align and center the caliper with the rotor and then torque them down.
Report back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #390 ·
We are all colluding by stating the same issue according to Triumph.
Being total strangers from different parts of the country and even in Britain too, but we all concocted this brake shaiza, because we have nothing better to do with our time. F'ing bastards!!!
All they have to do is go into any showroom and compare 1st and second pull of any bike with these brakes and there will be a disparity of at least a half inch. That's brand new. I did this at three different dealerships and every single one, including the new Rocket 3 suffers from this issue. When I pointed it out to one salesman, he tried to say that's normal for ABS brakes. I then asked him if the Thruxton S had ABS and he said yes. I checked 1st and second pull on that bike in front of him and they were identical (as they should be). I asked him why he thought Nissin figured out how to get normal response from ABS when Brembo couldn't and he just walked away. I think that most people just don't ride enough to notice maybe, but again, I couldn't find one bike that wasn't affected on the floor.

*I'll reach out to Santiago and pass on my info.
 

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haven't heard/seen anything on the triumph/brembo brake issue lately. Anyone else?

i think i will go ahead and install the braketech pistons. my other option was to just wholesale replace the calipers with M50 or stylemas, but that would might necessitate a mc swap too.
 

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I have been having the same weak brake / lever travel / double-pump issue on my '17 Thruxton R pretty much since I got it, and been following this thread (lurking) for a while. Finally I've gotten to the point where I won't ride it until it's fixed, so before I put down the money to rebuild the system myself, I decided to re-read the recent posts. I put in the NHTSA report, emailed Santiago Maldonado ( [email protected] ) at NHTSA with the problem and a .pdf copy of the complaint.

He called me 2 hours later to get more information. He says there is something like 40 complaints now, they are investigating, and he said there has been communication with Triumph. If you have not already put in your complaint, do so ASAP. The more information they have on the issue the better. I've also volunteered to have my Thrux sent up to Ohio for testing if necessary.

Santiago seems genuinely interested in resolving this issue. Give him the info he needs to help us all.
 

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I have been doing a bit more research because my dealer is going to be looking at my brakes again next week & i found a couple of interesting posts...Neither were on triumps but both related to the double pump syndrome...Post 1. An owner mentioned that he resolved the problem by drilling out the small hole (only slightly larger) which allows the brake fluid to pass from the brake line to the caliper...The claim was that because the hole was originally too small there was not enough fluid passing through to the caliper on the first pull...This makes some sense to me ! Post 2. From a Ducati forum -- After about 2 weeks the dealer tells me its ready, and that the way to fix it is to activate the abs system, letting the air travel to the caliper, then bleeding caliper. Then repeat, until no more air is in the ABS motor. Now my lever is rock hard all the time. Its kinda a bad design, not putting a bleeder on the pump, but your dealer should be able to take care of it.....Has anyone tried these ideas ?
 

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Has anyone tried these ideas ?
I don't recall seeing mention of anyone drilling anything out to address this, but people have done extensive brake line/abs bleedings with usually only temporary beneficial results.

As the weather has cooled off, I have noticed my brakes are working better - there is still a difference between the first and second pull but it is not that great and the first pull is sufficient to stop even without my brake lever adjusted all the way out. This definitely was not the case this summer, when I pinched my pinky finger to the throttle on a hot day at the track.
 

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I have been doing a bit more research because my dealer is going to be looking at my brakes again next week & i found a couple of interesting posts...Neither were on triumps but both related to the double pump syndrome...Post 1. An owner mentioned that he resolved the problem by drilling out the small hole (only slightly larger) which allows the brake fluid to pass from the brake line to the caliper...The claim was that because the hole was originally too small there was not enough fluid passing through to the caliper on the first pull...This makes some sense to me ! Post 2. From a Ducati forum -- After about 2 weeks the dealer tells me its ready, and that the way to fix it is to activate the abs system, letting the air travel to the caliper, then bleeding caliper. Then repeat, until no more air is in the ABS motor. Now my lever is rock hard all the time. Its kinda a bad design, not putting a bleeder on the pump, but your dealer should be able to take care of it.....Has anyone tried these ideas ?
I used the dealer tool to activate the abs on my bike when bleeding. As apt_philly above mentioned, bleeding is only temporary if any help at all. I bled the brakes on my bike several times with no improvement

The issue is not air in the brake lines, pump or calipers. The final fix for mine was replacing the pistons and seals, and I changed over to a better master cylinder for good measure. This sorted the issue for me.
 

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I have been doing a bit more research because my dealer is going to be looking at my brakes again next week & i found a couple of interesting posts...Neither were on triumps but both related to the double pump syndrome...Post 1. An owner mentioned that he resolved the problem by drilling out the small hole (only slightly larger) which allows the brake fluid to pass from the brake line to the caliper...The claim was that because the hole was originally too small there was not enough fluid passing through to the caliper on the first pull...This makes some sense to me ! Post 2. From a Ducati forum -- After about 2 weeks the dealer tells me its ready, and that the way to fix it is to activate the abs system, letting the air travel to the caliper, then bleeding caliper. Then repeat, until no more air is in the ABS motor. Now my lever is rock hard all the time. Its kinda a bad design, not putting a bleeder on the pump, but your dealer should be able to take care of it.....Has anyone tried these ideas ?
1peter, you obviously like few others have not read this thread from beginning. The bleeding by the dealer with the voodoo magical tool does NOT work as a permanent solution.
The hole on the caliper has nothing to do with a piston retracting caused by the seal.
Please understand what the problem is by informing yourself by reading this thread.
 

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Thanks Red Baron, I dont think i will be reading 20 pages, but i do get the picture...I dont expect my dealer to resolve the issue by bleeding the system, but because i have put in a warranty claim (as many have not) this is the path the dealer needs to follow because Triumph have told them to...Once they discover it does not work, we can go forward from there...I have also put in a complaint with the NHTSA...Communication with Santiago was good at 1st but now it seems to have stopped completely ? The only fix i have read about was by Jeevs, who replaced the pistons, seals & master cylinder....You said that i should understand what the problem is...is there something i have missed ? My understanding is that no one (except Jeevs ?) has permanently solved the issue, but i could be wrong !...Santiago (NHTSA) told me - More owners need to put in a warranty claim with Triumph & register their complaint with the NHTSA instead of just complaining about the issue on forums...So as you can see, i have been very active in trying to get actual results while also trying to keep myself informed, but i appologise if my research is not to your satisfaction...
 

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Thanks Red Baron, I dont think i will be reading 20 pages, but i do get the picture...I dont expect my dealer to resolve the issue by bleeding the system, but because i have put in a warranty claim (as many have not) this is the path the dealer needs to follow because Triumph have told them to...Once they discover it does not work, we can go forward from there...I have also put in a complaint with the NHTSA...Communication with Santiago was good at 1st but now it seems to have stopped completely ? The only fix i have read about was by Jeevs, who replaced the pistons, seals & master cylinder....You said that i should understand what the problem is...is there something i have missed ? My understanding is that no one (except Jeevs ?) has solved the issue or had any luck making Triumph address the problem...Santiago (NHTSA) told me - More owners need to put in a warranty claim with Triumph & register their complaint with the NHTSA instead of just complaining about the issue on forums...So as you can see, i have been very active in trying to get actual results while also trying to keep myself informed, but i appologise if my research is not to your satisfaction...
No need to apologize, we are all here trying to solve and obvious safety issue. I fixed the problem too, understanding the problem by posts of Terry Colley and DEcosse. Not bragging, but I was at the forefront trying to solve this issue with the dealer, but to no avail. Then I tried greasing the rough pistons for a temporary fix. Once I replaced the seals and pistons I can say it was fixed. Jeevs corroborated my findings and went on as far as changing the brake MC, but it's not needed. Sorry if I came across rude, it was not my intentions.
 

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No harm done & my apology did include a little sarcasm, lol...It is good to know there is a fix...I will forward your post to my dealer for reference & hopefully they will step up to the plate at some point...Thanks for your persistence in this matter....
 

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Red Baron, I was never very happy with my earlier sketch and explanation of what's occurring with the soft first pull so have added what I think is a better explanation to a more professional drawing which is attached.

Slope Rectangle Font Parallel Diagram


I've also found an internal Triumph memo from 2006 referring to the same problems that afflicted the first 1050 Speed Triples. This was part of the so called 'goodwill' fix that involved retrofitting much slippier coated pistons. The memo didn't call it a soft first pull but instead referenced it "The reported issue is that of control lever travel variation".
It's astonishing that Triumph have suffered these issues for so long and with so many different generations of brake system.
 
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