[apt_philly]

congrats on getting this moving, i now have a very slight hope that something will get done. I have had the double pump issue to some degree since new (2016 thruxtonR), with various flushes, bleeds, cleanings giving temporary reprieves, but I would love to leave this behind. My local triumph service manager actually apologized last time i was in that they couldnt get the brakes properly sorted. (NHSTA tracking number 11428493)

But, the reason I came here is to see if anyone knows if there is a bolt on solution maybe using a higher spec brembo caliper. For example the thruxtonR TFC from 2020 used the M50 caliper (not sure if it has the same problems or not). If there are known good drop in replacements I would definitely work to acquire and use them while waiting for triumph/brembo to be forced to step up and make things right.

 

[apt_philly]

Red Baron, I know you have a particular interest in this topic having gone to considerable effort to find a solution.
It's interesting that apt_philly is curious enough to ask about the TFC version of the Brembo calipers. I'm not sure what prompted him to ask that. I will however share a snippet of a conversation at my local dealer in the company of a customer who had recently purchased a very expensive Rocket 3 TFC of all things. Mention was made of the soft first pull afflicting many Brembo M50 equipped Triumphs, to which the Triumph rep who was there said "you won't have that problem because the calipers they use for the TFC models are fitted with the race spec pistons". Not sure if I heard it correctly, maybe he was just talking up the TFC models so don't know if there is any credibility to it but it stuck in my mind and made me wonder. Is it possible that Brembo have different spec pistons (and seals?) available on a bespoke OEM basis?
[/QUOTE

that is not great to hear. I was hoping the M50's wouldn't have the same problems as the m4-32's and that I would be able to find some gently used ones since it is also a standard part on the speed twin.

 

[apt_philly]

@apt_philly
I'm pretty sure that our Brembos M4 calipers are the 34mm, not the 32mm ones.

noted. thanks.

 

[apt_philly]

Forgive me, but can I assume the latest Speed with Stylema doesn't suffer this issue?

i was curious about that too, but to be fair not all of the older calipers are bad either. Some people seem to have problems and some people don't. And if you search across the forums, you will find it affects many different types of bikes.

 

[apt_philly]

i also found this kit for my bike: Brake Caliper Kit Thruxton R

which claims:

"Brake pads <sic pistons> with DLC coating. Permanently removes the problem of the migrating pressure point.
Price is for one brake.
Attention from model year / year of construction 2018 these brake pistons are already built into the Thruxton R ex works."

For the money, i think the ones you got from braketech would seem to be better, although these do include the required seals.

 

[apt_philly]

haven't heard/seen anything on the triumph/brembo brake issue lately. Anyone else?

i think i will go ahead and install the braketech pistons. my other option was to just wholesale replace the calipers with M50 or stylemas, but that would might necessitate a mc swap too.

 

[apt_philly]

Has anyone tried these ideas ?

I don't recall seeing mention of anyone drilling anything out to address this, but people have done extensive brake line/abs bleedings with usually only temporary beneficial results.

As the weather has cooled off, I have noticed my brakes are working better - there is still a difference between the first and second pull but it is not that great and the first pull is sufficient to stop even without my brake lever adjusted all the way out. This definitely was not the case this summer, when I pinched my pinky finger to the throttle on a hot day at the track.

 

[apt_philly]

BRAKE UPDATE:
Most interesting call just now with Triumph USA customer service.

A Triumph rep called me last night too and asked if i was still having brake problems mentioned in my NHTSA filing. I said I was, and his folllow-up was if my brake subsystem was all still original oem -- levers, master cylinder, calipers, pistons, pads. The conclusion was he asked me to bring my bike in to my local dealer and initiate a goodwill warranty claim. I mentioned taking it in several times over the past 5 years and he said they intended the local guys to work closely with Triumph to figure the issue out. I guess it won't hurt to drop it off again.... but i did just buy the braketech pistons and was looking forward to installing them!

 

[apt_philly]

Dropped my 2016 ThuxtonR off at my local triumph dealer last weekend, for one last attempt at fixing the inconsistent bite point for the brembo front brakes, after going over this with the dealer 3 times under warranty and once last summer at my 20K service. I purchased the braketech stainless race caliper pistons and my plan was to do full caliper clean and rebuild with the braketech pistons, new seals, full fluid flush and if still necessary swap out the master with a brembo rcs19 corsa corta. Bypassing ABS would be a last resort and not something really wanted to do.

And then Triumph NA called in response to my NHTSA filing.

First off my, besides not being able to resolve this problem, I am super happy with my local service team and they were enthusiastic to work with triumph to try to get this fixed. Bike is still in the shop but I got a status update this weekend. First they confirmed the problem and agreed it is awful. The next step surprised me. They ran new brake lines from the master to the caliper, bypassing all my existing brake lines and the abs module. Apparently with this change, the problem is completely gone. Next step is to replace all the brake lines and test with ABS still in the loop. If the problem comes back they will replace the ABS module and retest.

This makes me think there may be more than one problem with the braking system, which is why we see so many people saying different actions fix/don't fix their problems. Once it comes back, regardless of outcome, I still want to install the race pistons...

 

[apt_philly]

Sorry to say Philly, but they've basically just tested a brand new brake bleed on lines direct from MC to caliper. Of course they're going to think they've addressed the issue.

They've confirmed that the calipers and MC work. Good. I can understand the method they've taken but they're ignoring the fact that the issue returns over time after bleeding the brakes, and also the normal fluid displacement conditions for the MC piston with the full brake system installed.

Can you ask them to confirm that they've at least disassembled the calipers to inspect the pistons? Maybe some photo evidence?

I know asking probably feels like looking the gift horse in the mouth, but these guys need to be more thorough

I don't know exactly what they have done, i just know they were excited to find something that appears to work. Last summer I did have calipers removed and cleaned (no new seals, pistons not fully removed). I intend to let them follow though with whatever process Triumph wants them to do (while it is cold and icy!) and if it is still not resolved I will install the braketech pistons and new seals. Maybe triumph will figure something out if they work on a couple dozen of our bikes this winter. I still think they need to be holding brembo responsible for this at some level.

 

[apt_philly]

i wanted to follow back up here after having TNA and my local dealer work on the double pull issue back in February. After they had my bike for a few weeks, they just ended up replacing the brake line between the mc and the abs pump. I was pretty skeptical that it could be something so simple. I didnt understand how it could possible be causing the wide variation in brake response I was experiencing, yet all I can say is so far, so good. I will definitely follow up as north america riding season progresses and i rack up some miles, but right now I am super happy with the outcome.

 

[apt_philly]

Ho


You're right to be sceptical. Hocus pocus I'm afraid. The soft initial pull requiring a second pull will be back soon. Sorry. At least they didn't just fob you off.

if it comes back, i still have the braketech pistons to install. Dont think i will want my bike sitting at the dealer during good riding weather. We shall see.

 

[apt_philly]

Ho


You're right to be sceptical. Hocus pocus I'm afraid. The soft initial pull requiring a second pull will be back soon. Sorry. At least they didn't just fob you off.

I am sad to report you were right. After about two months the double pull is back. Triumph wants me to bring it back to the shop, but I know they are slammed right now and it would be a real season killer. As much as I would like to take Triumph up on the offer to make it right, I think I am going to have to start replacing parts at which point I am sure they won't really be interested in working on it. I guess I would do it if I had another street bike or if Triumph would give me a loaner...

 

[apt_philly]

You could always just request that they replace the piston seals and you'll supply the pistons with those you already have. It's not a big job and it eliminates the problem

I hope they help you get this sorted

I could definitely install the braketech pistons or a new master or bypass ABS (and i probably will do the pistons at this point) but it doesn't really help the greater community of people suffering with this problem for years except for provide another anecdotal data point of someone that is happy with brakes after spending several hundred dollars.

 

[apt_philly]

Not sure I agree with you Philly. If you were to do each of these steps independently of each other, hopefully you would either see an issue, or work out which step helped improve the brakes or eliminated the problem. That would provide valuable information to others with the same issue

The more brakes that get pulled apart, more evidence is gathered, and more information is shared. Better for everyone.

I wish I had of just replaced the pistons and seals when I overhauled the brakes on my speedy. The condition of the pistons that came out pointed towards them being the culprits. But because I upgraded the MC at the same time I can't point the finger with 100% certainty.

I will definitely just replace the pistons before going all rcs19 corsa corta on things, but my point was that I dont think Triumph will figure out what is wrong if we go around implementing our own fixes. I do think the group of people on this forum experimenting on different things is super valuable though...

 

[apt_philly]

I will definitely just replace the pistons before going all rcs19 corsa corta on things, but my point was that I dont think Triumph will figure out what is wrong if we go around implementing our own fixes. I do think the group of people on this forum experimenting on different things is super valuable though...

I'm ready to restart the timer - I took advantage of the crap weather this weekend to do a full rebuild of the brembo m4 calipers. Thorough cleaning, new seals, new fluid, and braketech stainless pistons and some new sbs hh pads. The old seals looked great, fluid was clear and light, the old pistons were pretty clean too, but the calipers themselves were pretty grimy and the old brembo hh pads were pretty close to the wear markers after a year of riding and five track days.

As always I will report back if my brake lever engagement starts moving around, but for now all seems good again.