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There is a clatter/rattle when the bike is cranking. I can definitely hear it on the startup.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
I have to ask tho, is there something wrong on the video in the first post of this thread?
It sounds completly fine to me and I have a feeling that my bike sounds the same...What am I missing?
Didn't do a good job capturing it, but there was a clack at startup like @RampantParanoia caught, and at shutdown. This was the 2nd start after it popped up and I was hoping it would magically go away. The sound got clearer on the 5th start. Upon disassembly looks like when the starter pinion engaged with the idler at the point of the two missing teeth it spun forward and hit the next teeth - clack! Don't know why the sound surfaces at shutdown, which is why I worry about the sprag clutch even though it looks perfect and works on the bench.
 

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Does the noise happen every shutdown or just sometimes?

If only sometimes, it might be of the last cylinder on the compression stroke turns the engine backwards slightly, engaging the sprag and turning the idlers. If the starter and idler are in the right place for the damaged teeth to mesh then that could make the clack? Or it might be the sprag clacking in that instance from being engaged "backwards".

That's purely guesswork though, not sure if either could actually happen or not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Does the noise happen every shutdown or just sometimes?

If only sometimes, it might be of the last cylinder on the compression stroke turns the engine backwards slightly, engaging the sprag and turning the idlers. If the starter and idler are in the right place for the damaged teeth to mesh then that could make the clack? Or it might be the sprag clacking in that instance from being engaged "backwards".
Had the same theory about reverse engine motion at the end of the shutdown cycle. The sound did appear to happen every shutdown, but I only started it 5 times after I first heard the sound.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Engine cover gaskets - install oiled or dry? Think I installed these dry 4 years ago when I soaked the clutch plates. They are intact and look dry but I can't remember how I installed.
741982
 

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Looks good to me :) I've not heard of installing them oiled before. I've always put them on dry, and as long as they aren't fully in bits I'll reuse them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
The old (updated) sprag clutch will go back into speedy cleaned with a greased needle bearing since it works fine. A couple of questions about this:
  • Using engine assembly lube on sprag clutch internals unless somebody advises otherwise
  • Engine gasket covers to get a thin coat of oil or copper grease to try and keep them from tearing the next time
  • The sprag clutch was not taken apart so it goes on keyed to the crankshaft the same way it came off.
    • Does the sprag clutch gear have a keyed or directional orientation to the sprag where it installs over the needle bearing?
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742277


So far only a teaspoon of oil lost, and I was lucky to retrieve both broken teeth from the starter idler in the outer starter case. So there's no need to drain/replace the oil as part of the sprag clutch replacement process. Except if you see evidence of shredded metal of course.
 

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Using engine assembly lube on sprag clutch internals...
Nope. Use engine oil only on sprag internals. The anti-seize properties of assembly lube are given by small particles of molybdenum disulphide (and graphite in the one you have). The sprag grips by friction, i.e. seizing, so there is a risk the moly and graphite would stop it from locking up properly when you try to start the bike.


Engine gasket covers to get a thin coat of oil or copper grease to try and keep them from tearing the next time
I have no idea about how copper grease would affect the sealing of the gasket but you should avoid using it on an aluminium engine either way as it accelerates corrosion. By all means oil them with engine oil, hopefully it helps. I've always figured tearing paper gaskets is the cost of doing business with engine work.


Does the sprag clutch gear have a keyed or directional orientation to the sprag where it installs over the needle bearing?
Nope, they rotate relative to each other normally when the sprag isn't engaged.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
The sprag grips by friction, i.e. seizing, so there is a risk the moly and graphite would stop it from locking up properly when you try to start the bike.
Understand on the internals. Want the needle bearing to be protected and well lubricated before the oil journals start flowing. Since the sprag locks up by physically expanding the "8" springs in one direction, does it matter whether the lubricant is supper slippery Motul synthetic or assembly grease?

Nope, they rotate relative to each other normally when the sprag isn't engaged.
Doh..😅
 

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Should be fine on the needle bearing, just not the sprags themselves. The oil can largely flow out of the way under the pressure of the sprags engaging so it doesn't affect the engagement. The grease in the assembly lube will do the same to an extent, but the solid moly and graphite particles will not. They stay in place and provide lubrication at very high contact pressures (note the "extreme pressure" label on the tube), so will allow the sprag to slip.

They get washed away eventually by normal oil flow but until then, bad news for your sprag.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Thanks @DEcosse and @RampantParanoia, found a quart of motorcycle oil to lube up the sprag pre-install. Got a replacement starter solenoid in from eBay, shipping from Rick's was quite slow. This one is from a 2019 speedy and it looks identical to the '05 part, except shiny. Tried testing with a 9V battery across the relay (trigger) terminals while testing for resistance across the starter (power) terminals. No change. I hear and feel a click when the 9v battery is applied, but no change in measured resistance. What am I missing?

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9V battery probably does not have enough current to throw it properly - a solenoid takes a lot more current (several amps) to operate than a simple relay (140mA)
If you were to measure the voltage of the battery while it is applied to the coil. I'm sure you would find it sagged considerably
Try your same test across your bike battery
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Threw the solenoid on to test. This is with cleaned, decarbonized starter and replacement 2019 solenoid. Sprag cleaned, lubed and installed, awaiting new starter idler gear. Solenoid works and the starter sounds smooth.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
My starter is turning clockwise, looking head on at output pinion. Rick's replacement starter turns CCW. That makes more sense since the crank turns CCW I think (looking at crank from right side). Can somebody confirm this?

If this is the case I may have done one of two things - installed the motor brushes with reverse polarity or installed the solenoid upside down. Does the 2nd possibility even make sense since it's just a switch?
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Can't figure out the starter. Between the configuration of the brush plate, the short lead from the +ve terminal and the bolt holes in the brush plate there appears to only be one way to install the commutator into the brushes. How can I reverse motor polarity?
DSC_9462.JPG DSC_9465.JPG DSC_9463.JPG
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
The brush plate turned out to be installed correctly. On this Denso starter it can only be installed in one orientation without breaking the positive brush lead. While the plate is not keyed, a combination of the bolt holes that secure the starter cover and the brush springs makes the installation orientation clear. In any case the +ve and -ve brushes contact two segments of the commutator 180deg apart. Wouldn't make a difference if you swapped them.

The thing that reversed my starter's direction was the direction of the sleeve with the permanent magnet 🤦‍♂️stuck axially inside. The sleeve fits in either direction over the armature and is nearly identical in both directions. The only clue is the direction of the label and a few tabs. Swapped direction and now the starter turns CCW. Here's the correct orientation:
742466
 
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