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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Thread to document sprag/starter/solenoid service process on my 2005 speedy with 30k miles. The symptoms are:

  • Clacking sound at start and upon shutdown - started <5 times since the noise started.
  • Starter operation drops healthy battery voltage to ~12v range cold, but ~10.5v range when hot.
The plan:
  • Inspect sprag clutch. I believe I had the updated '08+ sprag clutch part #T1221112 installed in 2008 under factory goodwill, but cannot find the receipt. It's possible I will find the original part #T1221105. Depending on what I find I'll decide what to replace. One of the options is @DEcosse 's '08-13 Hayabusa sprag hack which can save ~$350 over the cost of the T1221112 Triumph sprag kit.
  • Clean starter motor, decarbonize, inspect brushes, clean starter cable contact surface and waterproof.
  • Clean starter solenoid, decarbonize.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
With the covers off, the idler gear has two missing teeth. Starter output splines nerfed up but will clean up. Any tips or tricks to crack open the allen bolt holding the sprag clutch, while counterholding it? I don't have a clutch puller and a large flathead wedged into a gear seems risky.
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Starter splines dinged up but the idler gear clearly bore the brunt.
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Would appreciate somebody helping me understand how the sprag clutch creates this damage. Think I understand the basics of how a sprag works. The 8-shaped springs release rotating in one direction and expand, compress, jam into the enclosure and stop motion in the other direction. If the sprag is compromised it will rotate in both directions. How does this result in broken idler teeth or starter damage?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The insides of the starter show 30k miles worth of carbon dust and brush wear, but surprisingly little corrosion.

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Anybody know of a source to replace starter brushes while I have it apart? Tips on how to reinstall the starter with the brushes compressed to fit over the commutator? Strangely Amazon carries speedy starter motor for $165!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks to @done (bike in gear, step on rear brake, breaker bar with allen bit) the sprag clutch is out. Looks immaculate so far, will disassemble tomorrow. Is this the updated or original sprag?

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
The Denso (stock) starter cleaned up nicely. Lots of carbon dust and a layor of carbon on the commutator that came off with fine emery cloth, added a thin layer of conductive electrical grease. No bearing play at 30k miles, added a couple of drops of mineral oil to the rim of the two sealed bearings. Reassembly took an extra pair of hands and a couple of wooden bbq skewers stuck into holes likely designed for a special tool that stops the brushes enough to slide the commutator in. Tested with the battery and it works silently and without vibration. Photos after cleaning.
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The starter solenoid turned out to be more difficult to disassemble without damage. More on this later, but at 30k miles there was very little carbon, no dirt and zero corrosion inside, with a thick o-ring sealing the unit. Best to leave this alone if it works, appears unlikely to suffer from age. At this point I'd guess the dirt in the starter accounted for 80% of the starter circuit voltage drops I was seeing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Cleaned the sprag. No evidence of scuffing or wear so far, zero needle bearing play and the clutch moves smoothly in one direction, engages immediately stopping reverse motion. @RampantParanoia and others, any tips on getting the clip off to disassemble? Very little room under the 4 flanges of the clip and I broke a pick and bent a flathead trying.
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Just don't take apart the Sprag - you can't really 'service' it - it's either going to be good or bad and you run more risk of making it worse, hence my 'leave it alone' advice.
What was your intent there I would ask (that's not a slight, serious question)?

Sorry, Have no clue what might have caused the starter gears to shear
 

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any tips on getting the clip off to disassemble?
Sorry I've never taken one apart that far, can't help you there. I assumed it was easy to do hence my advice in the other thread, sorry :)

Got a theory how the idler lost two teeth?
As I said in the other thread, difficult to say. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a fatigue failure, i.e. a tiny crack in a tooth root gradually grew with each start until the material was weak enough for the starter to rip off two teeth. The source of that crack was likely either a manufacturing defect (inclusion in the material, localised hardening mismatch etc) or a particularly rough start either shock loaded the idler enough to cause a crack or a bit of debris got smashed into the idler causing a crack. Are you able to post a higher res picture of the failed area on the idler so the surface texture of the failure is visible?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
What was your intent there I would ask
Look for evidence of galling, gouging or scuffing on the internal walls of the race where the sprags engage. To help with the $475 decision of buying a sprag kit.
 

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...buying a sprag kit.
As per the other thread (ahh confusing), I see no reason to suspect your sprag is faulty if the damage is confined to the starter teeth and the idler it meshes with. By all means inspect it but I don't think you need to be worrying about replacing it.

I think you should replace your starter as well as the failed idler, as the damaged teeth on the starter will eventually fail. It may be in 30k miles, or more, or less, but you can see in your photos above that the damaged starter teeth have started marking the undamaged idler teeth. No matter how long your starter lasts before failure it will be putting point loads on the new idler from the damaged teeth, which will in turn damage the idler. You will ultimately end up replacing the starter then the idler ad nauseum depending on how long you keep the bike. This is likely to be a long term issue rather than a failure every couple of months but still worth considering.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Sorry about the other thread @RampantParanoia . I was advised to start a new thread to avoid mucking up the sticky, couldn't find a way to delete my post there.

Photos of the starter pinion and the idler gear. I can feel a flattening (kind of a chamfer) of two splines on the starter, no other damage or sharp edges. Looks worse than it is because of bare metal v. oxidized.

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Found a speedy starter on Amazon listing the correct Triumph part numbers for 2005-13 speed triple among others. Photos show mounting bosses parallel to starter pinion.
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On my '05 they are perpendicular.
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Can somebody confirm how their '08-'10 and '11-'13 starter is secured? Reached out to the vendor no response so far. Hoping the photos are wrong but could be a '05-'07.5 quirk.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The starter solenoid sees the largest amperage that needs to be mechanically switched on and off at least once per ride. I reasoned that the inevitable arcing must cause carbon deposits, and with the help of oxidation and corrosion that this might lead to increased resistance over 15 years. Happy to say I was wrong, but in the process of proving this I managed to destroy the solenoid. Hoping this post might help others avoid this.

The solenoid is sealed well with an o-ring inside a casing. Some carbon deposits at the contact surface but not enough to make a difference in conductivity. Did not observe any corrosion or oxidation on metal surfaces, clearly the seal works well. This video does a good job of explaining disassembly and failure modes.

The part I did not know is that wires from the relay coil are soldered to the bottom of the spade terminals, unlike the pigtail in the video above. Without unsoldering and vacuuming these first, when you unsecure the solenoid housing, the spring inside will push the housing open and break one or both 20ga enamel wires encircling the coil. This is what I did. May have been possible to unwind the wire one turn, unsolder, vacuum, reinsert, solder and secure. Since my solder skills are dated and rely on finding reading glasses I chose the lazier option for $39 shipped. Ebay has some units from 2018-19 speedies in the $25 range. At 30k miles on a commuter speedy that has seen salty air the solenoid was not a source of resistance in the starter circuit.

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Can somebody confirm how their '08-'10 and '11-'13 starter is secured?
The starter on my 2012 engine matches yours. The starter on my 2000 955 looks like the one on the Amazon link, I think that mount type was used on older Triumphs and changed with the 2nd generation of the 955 engine.


Thanks for posting more photos of the idler, I can't see well enough to spot the beach marks characteristic of a fatigue failure but it looks like one tooth failed then that loose chunk tooth out most of the next tooth.
 

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Thread to document sprag/starter/solenoid service process on my 2005 speedy with 30k miles. The symptoms are:
Oh sorry to hear that you also have issues. I have to ask tho, is there something wrong on the video in the first post of this thread?
It sounds completly fine to me and I have a feeling that my bike sounds the same...What am I missing?
 
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