[stneckel]

I have an '02 Speed Triple that has been a source of a lot of frustration since I bought it about 2 years ago. Everything was ok at first, and then it started quitting on me without any pattern. I'd be riding, and it would just stop. Sometimes I'll have been riding all day, sometimes just a few miles.

When it quits, the engine just cuts out without warning. Dash lights are still active. Then it will crank but not start. I can crank it until the battery dies and it just won't go.

I replaced the wiring harness last fall, and it ran solid for 8 months. I thought I'd solved it. Then it quit on me last weekend 500 miles from home, same problem.

When I got home, I swapped ECU's, and it didn't start. I swapped a fuel tank from another Triumph, and it started. I switched back to the original tank, and it started. I switched back to the original ECU, and it started. So, in original (non-starting) configuration, it started with nothing more than temporarily moving some parts around.

Each time it dies, I get these errors from the ECU:
0463 - Fuel level sensor above max voltage
0230 - Fuel pump relay fault
1231 - Fuel pump relay open circuit
0113 - Intake air temp sensor too low

These errors can be reproduced by disconnecting the fuel pump connector (0230 / 1231), fuel level sensor (0463), or air temp sensor (0113) while running. However, I cannot do anything that makes all 4 errors appear at once. From the wiring diagram, I can't see any circuit that includes all of these components.

Side note - when pulling the fuel pump connector while the bike was running, the way it quit (running out of fuel) was somewhat similar to when I was riding it. However, I can't say for 100% sure that it is identical, since this was a test in my garage, not while riding.

Now, there is no fuel pump relay on the '02. But, I've checked all the relays and replaced any that were suspect. Fuses are all good.

During this 2 year process, I've replaced the whole wiring harness, cleaned every connector, and used dielectric grease at every non-gasketed connection. I've replaced the battery, ECU, fuel filter, fuel fittings, and checked the fuel pressure. I've replaced the fuel pressure regulator, and checked the vent lines.

The only thing that semi-reliably makes the bike start again when it quits is removing the tank and putting it back on the bike. I’ve had this happen more than once.

The fuel pump is about the only thing left that I can think of that could be replaced. Can a fuel pump fail intermittently as I've described? If so, why would removing the tank and putting it back together let it start up again, even if it was only for a short while?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[DEcosse]

That must have been - correction, must BE - driving you nuts!

I'd like to try to help:

Here is the simplified start/run circuit

The first observation is that the bike cranks, therefor a substantial part of the 'run' circuit can be confirmed: the ignition relay MUST be powered in order for the starter to crank.
Following the start signal backwards:
- output to the starter comes from the start button, which receives power via the pin 5 to pin 3 bridge in the alarm (or bypass) which receives it power in turn from the alarm plug pin 1 to pin 2 (or bypass), which originates at output of ignition relay pin 8, through relay input pin 1*, fuse 5 and ignition switch before it, all originating from the main power relay.
* kill switch must be made in order to supply power to energize the igntion relay via pin 6; also fall detect switch must suplly ground to also enable relay.

So - again if starter cranks, then the Ignition Switch, Ignition Relay, Fall Detect, Kill Switch and both Alarm interrupts (whether alarm or bypass)can all be eliminated!

So what about the fuel pump? As well as power, it also requires the drive signal, the return sink, through the ECM. That comes from pin 1/H1.
When you get fault condition, you need to check two things - one is the pump power to the pump - the other is the drive signal (should be low) when the pump is supposed to run.

Now - a couple of other things:
Does the neutral light stay on in the fault mode? That is on same power line as the pump, so is a good indicator that the pump power is there (assuming it reaches the pump through no wiring fault); the power side of the pump should remain on whenever the ignition is on. if you have no neutral light (or if you do but no power at the pump) then you need to validate the integrity of the wiring between the alarm connector pin 1 and those locations. If measuring for power at the pump, measure with respect to battery -ve, not across the connector pins. Again - the power side should be present with ignition on.

The pump drive signal: the signal that actually commands the pump to run is the 'low' output from the ECM
the pump should run for a couple of seconds when the ignition is first turned on - can you hear it run for that few seconds during the fault condition? If you can, the pump is good! If not, need to check the wiring between ECM and the pump. (note - it should ALWAYS run for a few seconds EVERY time you turn on ignition - turn off & on again, should re-initiate the timer.
So - if it runs for a few seconds, then that validates the power circuit and also the pump itself as both receiving check marks. If you cannot hear it whine EVERY time you turn on ignition, check first for power at the connector and also that you have continuity between the pump connector & the ECM.
Also, if you ground the 'low' pin of the pump connector to battery -ve, you should hear the pump run (it will not hurt the ECM to do this, even if ECM still connected)

The drive signal side of things is where the manual is really weak however:
My experience with other bikes is that the ECM takes the crank sensor to be detected (i.e. crank is rotating and generating pulses) in order for the pump drive to be re-initiated - there is nothing in the Triumph manual that validates that, but that is my belief as to what re-starts the pump drive. That is certainly how most other FI systems control the pump.

So if all else checks out, you MAY have a bad crank sensor - or at least check to see that there is no magnetic or metal debris on it - the air gap is non-adjustable so that is moot. The crank sensor also goes through an intermediate connector in the engine harness, so be sure to check that out for oxidation or bad joints.

So what of all the sensor faults?

Pump sense is presumably the 2/E1 input off same power feed that supplies the pump - since starter runs there would have to be a bad connection between the alarm connector and the pump, ECM and Neutral lamp.

Air temp and Fuel level don't make a lot of sense however, which may point you at electrical power supply issues. The problem is those errors can be holdovers, so not necessarily active when you are troubleshooting - so even if battery appears in good shape, potential issue with Charging system could cause the initial faults
What is your battery volts with ignition off, ignition on (with lights) and engine running?
Do you have any non-standard or after-market parts in the charging system i.e. Stator or Rectifier/Regulator?

Hope some of that proves helpful!
Appreciate an update - I put a lot of time into this repsonse!

 

[stneckel]

DEcosse -

Thanks for spending the time to formulate such a detailed response. There are a lot of suggestions in there that I would have had no idea about (mechanical engineer here; electricity is basically magic to my people). I'm going to try and get it into failure mode this weekend, and check pretty much all of your suggestions.

I don't have the alarm, just the bypass. I've actually pulled that bypass block while the bike was running; it just shuts down, but no errors are logged.

I believe that the fuel pump always primes the system when the ignition is turned on, even when the bike fails. However, with your explanation of the way the pump works, that only means that it primes when the key it turned. If I'm reading your explanation right, if the drive signal to the pump isn't working, it won't maintain pressure long enough to keep running. Your suggestion that the crank sensor drives the pump signal is an interesting one; I wish that the Triumph service manual provided a schematic of the ECU, that would certainly help narrow it down. I'm going to pull the alternator cover tonight and look at the gap.

The neutral light is an interesting one, I honestly can't say one way or another if it was on. I know that the next time I'm stopped by this fault, I will definately check for it.

I don't have any non-standard parts in the charging system, but I did increase the gage size of the wire from the regulator to the battery. There was a post awhile back from Zam70 regarding the charging system, I think you replied on that one too. I have a voltage meter on the bike, and generally when running its at about 14.7-14.9v at speed, 13.4-13.6v at idle. If I remember right, it sits right around 12.5v when the bike is on and not running. I know that is lower than optimal battery voltage, but I've always assumed that was due to losses from the various components drawing power at a loss to the battery (not recharging when the engine isn't running).

I do agree that the air temp sensor and fuel level sensor errors are somewhat irrelevant. The bike will run without those, but it certainly won't run if the fuel pump is failing, so I've mainly focused on that.

Update:
I drained the tank last night, pulled the pump and disassembled most everything, looking for any blockages or anything that might be causing a loss of fuel. I also noticed that I hadn't actually replaced the fuel pressure regulator, but I did have it sitting on the workbench, so it got installed.

 

[stneckel]

Still not working right

Well, after another couple weeks of poking around on this (mainly checking out the stuff in the posts above from DEcosse), I'm still as stumped as ever. After disassembling the fuel pump, making sure all the connectors (electrical and plumbin) inside the tank were solidly attached, and installing a new fuel pressure regulator, I'm still having problems, though they've changed a bit.

I took the bike out for a ride on a nice hot day (I've determined that this only happens on really hot days). Filled up with gas a couple miles from my house, and about 1/4 mile from the station she quits on me. No warning, nothing, just stops running. Get it back home, and this time, no MIL, no errors indicated at all. Also, no start. DEcosse - neutral light worked just fine.

So, just to see if I'm getting fuel pressure, I put the fuel pressure gauge on the bike, turn it on, and the pressure looks fine, just about 40psi (not started, just sitting). I thumb the starter, and she fires right up like nothing was ever wrong. Now, I made sure not to disturb anything. Just disconnected the fuel line, put the gauge on.

I took it out for a much shorter ride and found that when I twisted the throttle (above around 25%), it seemed like it wanted to die out, and when I rolled the throttle back to about 10-25%, it ran ok. This happened several times.

I put the pressure gauge back on the bike and it read 60psi while idling. This just doesn't make sense. I have a brand new, from Triumph, pressure regulator. I took it out for another short ride, and the loss of power described above seemed to have gone away. Still, that pressure is way too high, according to the factory manual.

Now, please tell me if any of these ideas hold water:
1. Vapor lock - one of the fuel lines (the one to the right side of the rail) rides on the top of the engine case. Is it possible that I'm vaporizing fuel in the lines on hot days? It only leaves me stranded on hot days. At the same time, this doesn't explain why before I got a MIL, and this last time I didn't.
2. Failing fuel pump
3. Blockage in the fuel lines or rail.
4. Faulty fuel injectors
5. Failing or bad fuel line connectors (bought the replacement brass connectors from Team Triumph). These are like little check valves, but I've had 4 Triumphs with these and not had a problem.

Opinions, anecdotes, stories, tall tales, advice, and plain nonsense are welcome at this point. I'm really running out of ideas that don't involve just throwing parts and money at the bike.

Thanks!!

 

[DEcosse]

#5 - that may be the problem area!

See this thread in the Daytona forum - the author has been having terrible time with the same fittings, getting them to flow properly - it appears they have definitely been choking off the fuel supply.
Seem to be VERY particular about how they are installed & mated apparently.

The other thought I had initially (but dismissed when I connected your fuel fittings with that of the reference thread above) was in a vacuum lock in the tank:
Do you possibly have a tank vent problem?
The tank may not be venting properly, causing insufficient fuel flow.
When you get the condition, immediately open the gas cap & see if there is inrush or air (do you notice this when re-fuelling by chance?)

But your symptoms sound so similar to that of chaotic9's I would strongly suspect the fittings (we have shared a lot more dialogue off-line than in thread)
It seems like it's getting fuel - just not enough!

Check your PM's!

.

 

[stneckel]

Thanks!

DEcosse - Hey, thanks for referring me over to that other thread. It does sound very similar to the problem I've been having. Especially the guy who said he had problems when the bike was hot.

Those fittings are tapered, so if they get threaded in too far, I could definately see a problem occuring.

I did check the tank vents, and there's no problem there. I blew through them with compressed air, no blockages.

I removed the fittings last night, re-taped them, tightened them up just to the point where they wouldn't leak, and buttoned everything back up. I'm going to test ride Saturday, and see what happens.

 

[t955i2001]

...I'm going to test ride Saturday, and see what happens.

I hope all goes well keep us posted.

 

[stneckel]

Went for a couple fairly long rides this past weekend, and I think the problem may be solved. Looks like it was in the female fuel fittings. I think that it's possible that the wrong o-rings were installed, and it was causing the fuel flow to shut off.

Follow the thread linked in DEcosse's reply above for my best guess and the solution. For a short summary, I swapped the female fittings from another bike, and all the issues went away.

 

[brianbrowning]

Same problem with 08

I had the same problem today twice....weird never has happened in 4k miles, then twice. Are the fittings and lines the same on the 08?

 

[DEcosse]

Welcome to TriumphRat.net brianbrowning - please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the newbie thread and follow the request to revisit your UserCP to complete your profile with year/model and your location.

.. Are the fittings and lines the same on the 08?

No - completely different type of fitting.

 

[werm42]

**ZOMBIE POST**

Glad I found this thread, as I'm having an eerily similar issue with my 2003 SP4.

The problem is weirdly intermittent — as stneckel describes. By my best-guess it seems to be temperature related which has me thinking it might be electrical. I too have started eyeballing the fuel pump as a possible suspect.

That being said —*I totally killed (broke) the return female fuel coupler, and the red one (send line) leaks almost straight through when the fuel line is disconnected (which to me says something ain't right with that one either).

I've got a fresh set of metal fittings from Colder on their way from a supplier now. I hope I find them being as helpful as they were for stneckel!

 

[werm42]

Replacing the fittings seemed to have resolved the issue a major part of the issue with this bike. Apparently the bike was just fuel starved.