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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Are the narrow band 02 sensors on triumphs there for one purpose only...emissions? What i am trying to determine is whether there is any reason not to remove them and plug the holes. I have a tune that was made with sensors off, so thats not an issue.
 

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Emissions and for adapting to different conditions (fuel/temp/humidity). If your tune is made for the temps and humidity you usually ride in, then it should not matter. If the tune is made for completely different locale and you hit, let's say, a cool mountain road the tune is no longer ideal. But the adaptation is not huge, so it will not compensate for major changes anyway.

On the plus side, sensors disabled should make idle and previously closed-loop areas of the tune behave smoother (as the mixture is not constantly jumping rich-lean-rich-lean in an attempt to hit stoichiometric mixture).

So in short: there is reason to remove them, and there is reason not to.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
no, the checkbox just needs to be cleared. The + or - signs just show whether that section is expanded. Trying to just click it to clear the check doesn't work. You have to right click it and then click "disable" when it prompts you. But i'm not sure you should turn them off unless the tune was mapped for it. Plus realize that if you turn them off after a certain amount of time the sensors supposedly go bad if they are left unused. You are supposed to remove them and use plugs if you intend to run w/o them. That is unless you don't care if they go bad. but if you ever need them for any reason they will cost you i believe around $325 a pair.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If the tune is made for completely different locale and you hit, let's say, a cool mountain road the tune is no longer ideal. But the adaptation is not huge, so it will not compensate for major changes anyway.
But isn't it true that it's not only huge, but that below 6% throttle the sensors aren't even used anyways? Also, what i was asking and what i have heard before is that the sensors don't even adjust for best performance but only for emissions because they test emissions only at idle or very low throttle opening. In other words, triumph programs the sensors to give the best emissions and performance be damned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Well, not sure if i understand the answer, but instead of starting a new thread heres another question. I'm told turning the 02 sensors off in tuneecu will lead to thier eventual demise. But there are TWO things to consider if i am not mistaken.... they communicate with the ECU, and they are heated. The heating is what supposedly kills them, or should i say lack of heating. But are we sure that when you uncheck the 02 sensors in tuneecu that you are turning off the heating elements? It seems to me that it might not be a function of the ecu to turn the heating element on or off, but that instead it may simply turning off the ECU's communication with the sensor, leaving the heating element on. It doesn't make sense that there would be any way to stop the sensors from heating aside from physically unplugging them because the bike is designed with the intention that they will always be used, so why would the ECU ever need to turn the heating on or off. So i wonder if turning them off in tuneecu only turns off data communication regarding fueling. If this is the case then turning the sensors off in tuneecu should NOT lead to thier eventual demise. Thoughts? Anyone know the definite answer?
 

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I did an O2 bypass with resistors before TuneECU became available. I removed the sensors themselves from the pipes on Pieman's advice.

As soon as the software came out I removed the resistors. I checked the heater current and they consume about 25 watts each, but only for a short while, then the ECU turns them off. I don't know how the ECU knows when to turn them off, could be a timer or simply monitoring the readings it gets from the sensing part.

Check to see if there's power on the connector when the ignition is first turned on. The heater wire colours at the connectors are Brown/Pink and White.

It might be a similar situation as with the AI solenoid. Even after disabling the ECU is still powering it. The disabling just turns off the MIL light feature.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
So are you saying that after you disabled the sensors in Tuneecu, you still found the heaters were being activated? And by MIL light do you mean the engine management light ?
 

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If you disable the 02 in the map via TuneECU, be sure to remove the sensor completely and plug the hole with a suitable bolt -- I used a brass (air) fitting on my SIII together with Nickel Slip on the threads. Without the heaters being activated by the ECU the sensor will soon become electrically and mechanically inoperable and you will not be able to replace it later should you so desire -- e.g., when selling the machine on. With the 02 Sensor disabled in the map (and uploaded to the ECU), the Engine Management Light (or MIL = Malfunction Indicator Lamp) will not come on.
 

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So are you saying that after you disabled the sensors in Tuneecu, you still found the heaters were being activated? And by MIL light do you mean the engine management light ?
I didn't bother to take any measurements, assuming that the disabling by software turned everything off.

I'll have a play tomorrow and take some measurements to see if that's true.
 

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Just checked. Although my O2 sensors have been disabled by TuneECU and removed from the pipes, the power to the heaters is still there as soon as you turn on the ignition:

+12 to the Brown/pink wire
-12 to the white wire

Both colours are on the connector side of the wiring loom, the colours change on the O2 sensor loom.

Whereas in normal operation these heaters would be turned off by the ECM when the sensors attained a high enough temperature (around 600ºF apparently), as there's no feedback the power stays on. I kept waiting for over 4 minutes and it didn't go off.

This might mean that if the sensors are disabled but left in the pipes this power consumption (around 20-25watts per sensor) is permanent.

It all depends on what the disabling by software actually does. Does it just cancel any warning MIL light?, or does it turn off the ability of the ECM to read the signal from the sensors. Only the programmers can answer that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks ! thats what i figured. I mean, since triumph would have no reason to disable the heaters, why make the heater able to be turned off. Makes no sense as far as i can see. Tom....could you ask Alain if he knows?
 

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Thanks Forchetto for checking that current still flows to the heaters. Dazco's question is therefore most pertinent. It would be interesting to see whether Alain actually knows the answer. In the meantime, it is probably best to remove the sensor completely. This way, if the map simply disables the MIL fault code, the ECU will be prevented from going into closed loop operation and instead will rely entirely on the intended mapping -- as indeed do most Power Commander trim maps with the statutory o2 sensor eliminator fitted.
 

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Thanks Tom! You are always a reliable source of good information! So the answer is simple: Disconnect the o2 sensor completely, plug the hole and disable the function in the map via TuneECU.
 

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Agreed Forchetto! Hence the Power Commander trim maps are intended to supply optimum fueling without the interference of the narrow band o2 sensor at idle and low throttle cruising. It cannot be denied therefore that a dyno-developed tune map is the beat option. I am running such a tune map on my '06 SIII with great results: crisp throttle response, clean acceleration, linear power throughout the range.

Just to note: In times past, when it was not possible to 'switch off' the o2 sensor in the map, the trick was to set the AFR target table to 13:1 to stop the ECU from looking at the o2 sensor's output. As a result it would remain in open loop.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Wait.....the ecu still uses the sensors with the checkboxes cleared? Then why did that tuner uncheck them when he made that custom map for the guy i got the tune from? I would think the tuner saw what the sensors were doing on the dyno and so turned them off. In fact thats basically what i was told. More confusion...
 

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Wait.....the ecu still uses the sensors with the checkboxes cleared? Then why did that tuner uncheck them when he made that custom map for the guy i got the tune from? I would think the tuner saw what the sensors were doing on the dyno and so turned them off. In fact thats basically what i was told. More confusion...
It looks as if you have to do one of two things:

Either remove the sensors altogether and then you need to uncheck them on TuneECU to stop the ECU from throwing a MIL light,

or modify the map to stop the ECU from looking for O2 sensor input and remain open loop as per Teologie's post just above.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Well, this Mark Salvisberg guy is supposedly a very good tuner, so i would think he did whatever is necessary to make the ECU disregard the sensor data. But how or if he did i don't know. I emailed him so i'll post what he has to say if he replies.
 
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