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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-06-2019, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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2012 1050 Engine into a 2000 Speed Triple - Parts Bin Special!

Since I bought my Speedy I've always had a vague notion of putting a 1050 engine into it at some point. I was idly scrolling in a Facebook group recently and came across a deal that I couldn't pass up, £350 for a 2012 engine with an unknown knocking noise. I figured "Why not" and bought it, I'm detailing the rebuild of it separately here.

I'm going to take the opportunity to upgrade where I can and make a bit of a 'parts bin special' to get more performance out of the engine once it's in. Since I've done a lot of research on this, I figured I should put all of it in one place for anybody else who wants to do similar. I'm not claiming it all as my own original research mind! Standing on the shoulders of giants and all... I'm also not claiming any of this is 100% correct either, it's just what I've been able to find out. I'm open to being corrected

Note: I haven't considered parts from anything newer than the 2011-2015 Speed Triple as I figured parts are going to be expensive and too full of electronics to work on my old bike.

My current build plan is to:
- Retain the existing ECU and wiring (largely)
- Use the engine from a 2011-2015 Speed Triple
- Use the cooling system from a 2005-2010 Speed Triple
- Use the exhaust headers and oil cooler from a 2002-2006 Daytona
- Use the airbox, throttle bodies and injectors from a 2002-2004 Speed Triple / 2002-2006 Daytona

In terms of performance mods I plan to:
- Fit velocity stacks and a high flow filter in the airbox
- Remove the step in the throttle bodies, knife edge the butterflies and reduce the throttle shaft
- Port match the headers and throttle body transition pieces
- Block off the SAI covers
- Swap to the taller 6th gear from a Sprint GT

I will document all of the issues I come across with putting it all together in a bike. To start with, here is everything with regards to parts compatibility that I've gleaned so far


Running a 1050 with a 955 (Sagem) ECU
In terms of getting the engine running, the simplest thing is to use a Keihin ECU from one of the 2005+ bikes and load the appropriate map. I would then have to buy not only the ECU but an instrument cluster and wiring loom to match, then completely rewire the bike. This is potentially expensive and a lot of extra work, and I like the analogue gauge cluster! Retaining the Sagem ECU also means I need to change the alternator rotor, as the notches on the rotor rim are what the Crankshaft Position Sensor reads and the two ECU types need different waveforms. More on that later.

I considered getting a wideband Lambda sensor and trying to tune the bike myself once it was put together. Even after reading into it and trying to understand what all the map tables mean, I'm not confident I could do a good job, and the mapping parameters don't easily correlate between Sagem and Keihin ECUs. Also, a wideband sensor is expensive. I could get it dyno tuned by someone who knows what they are doing for that money, so I will.

That said, I did create a 'starter' map for the new engine based on my current map, 10076. I added 10% extra fuel across the board to account for the displacement increase, changed the injector flow (see below) then changed the rev limit and fan kick point to match the standard 2011-2015 maps. I extrapolated the warmup tables from a later map into the older one as well.


The 2011-2015 1050 Engine
This is the engine I ended up buying but it's basically the same as 2005-2010 engines except for the alternator, sprag clutch, one engine mounting point and one coolant bypass port. The latter two are pretty well covered here, I'll cover the alternator differences later. The sprag clutch is just an uprated version so it has no impact on compatibility.


Cooling System
The pre-2002 Speed Triples use an external filler neck and thermostat, so it's a lot of work to retain your existing plumbing and radiator with the new engine. The radiator mounting points under the headstock are the same up until 2011+ bikes with a different frame, so you can use the cooling system from later bikes. Don't be tempted to buy Daytona or Sprint radiators as they don't have the mounting points for indicators.

After 2002 the cooling system layout is basically the same until at least 2015, with the exception of the location of the expansion bottle. Initially the expansion bottle is the same as pre-2002 bikes, then changes location and shape several times over the 1050 models. You might as well retain the existing one as they all do the same job. I believe radiator fans use the same connector across the years so whichever radiator you choose, the fan plugs straight in.

Your choice of oil cooler limits your choice of radiators as well. You can't use the off-centreline oil cooler from a 2002-2004 Speed Triple as it has banjo fittings instead of the SAE fittings used on later engines. Since 955 oil coolers mount partly to the radiator, the 2002-2004 radiator has the wrong brackets so you can't use that either. Therefore, you have a choice between the larger oil cooler fitted to 2002-2006 Daytonas and the initial 1050 Speed Triples (T2100716), or the smaller oil cooler fitted to pretty much all 1050 bikes after that (T2100756). You need to get the right oil lines and mounting brackets depending on which you choose. I went for the larger oil cooler as bigger is better, right?

Personally, I think the best option is to retain your coolant expansion bottle under the seat and use a 2005-2010 radiator. The radiator mounts are the same and the plumbing is broadly the same as for the 2011+ engine, with the exception of a bypass hose from the head to the radiator which isn't present on 2011+ engines. You can just plug the port on the radiator as shown in Houlster's thread I referenced earlier.

I will be getting Samco hoses so for my planned cooling system I will need a proper hodgepodge of hoses:

- 2011-2015 Water pump to crankcase hose (T2107006, found in Samco kit TRI-10)
- 2005-2010 Water pump to radiator hose (T2100135, found in Samco kit TRI-4 & TRI-7)
- 2005-2010 Cylinder head to radiator hose (T2100751, found in Samco kit TRI-4 & TRI-7)
- 2002-2004 expansion and overflow hoses (T3620311 x2, found in Samco kit TRI-2)


Exhaust Headers
You can't use pre-2002 headers with post-2002 engines, the exhaust ports are a different shape and different gaskets are used. Additionally, post-2002 headers have a mounting point to the frame below the engine. It appears this mounting point was included in the frame castings from around 2000 onwards but not drilled to take a bolt, so it can be made to take later exhausts for the later engines.

I don't believe the headers from 2011-2015 bikes will fit in pre-2011 frames as the engine is at a different angle in the frame and the aforementioned lower mounting point is unlikely to be in the right place.

I initially considered using 2005-2010 headers as they were designed for the 1050 engine and will have the best choice of slipons etc. I found that they changed in 2007 so you will get 2005-2007 headers or 2007-2010 headers. The earlier headers have no lambda sensor boss as this was in the mid-pipe, and unless you are in Australia they will include a pre-catalytic converter in the end section of the header (best to remove for performance!). Post 2007 headers have a lambda sensor boss in the side of the collector and again include a pre-cat.

Brittrip pointed out 2002-2006 Daytona headers are a much better choice. They use the same mounting points and gaskets as all the other post-2002 headers, have a larger bore all the way through, a better collector design, and do not have any catalytic converters. I also found them to be much cheaper than 1050 headers on ebay, winner!

The downsides are they significantly reduce the choice of slipons that are available, and they put the outlet further back and higher up on the bike. Worthy of note is the fact the balance pipe on these headers sticks out so it may interfere with the oil cooler lines. This is purely speculation on my part, but I'm going to use Daytona oil cooler lines to be on the safe side.

I didn't consider the 2002-2004 Speed Triple headers so I have no idea how they compare to the later 1050 headers.


Airbox
The 2011-2015 airbox relies on drawing air through the headstock, a feature which isn't present on pre-2011 frames. I also don't believe it would fit under the pre-2002 fuel tank, so it can't be used. You can't use the pre-2002 airbox either, as pre-2002 throttle bodies are smaller and so are the corresponding intake trumpets in the airbox, so it won't fit on later throttle bodies. They would also choke the engine due to the smaller bore, limiting performance.

That leaves the 2005-2010 airbox and 2002-2004 S3/2002-2006 Daytona airbox. I believe the 1050 airbox should fit comfortably under the tank without any issues, whilst the 955 airbox is snug due to its larger size. That extra size is a good thing though, as it should flow more air and offer better performance than the 1050 airbox. You may need to remove the intake U snorkel on the top of it for clearance under the tank, but again this is a good thing as the u snorkel inlet is smaller than the inlet into the airbox it covers so you're giving the airbox a bigger hole to breath.

Another deciding factor for the 955 over the 1050 airbox is that the 955 has a port for the IACV used on 955 bikes, whereas you'd have to work out some way of bodging clean air into the IACV with the 1050 airbox. 885 bikes have a different IACV head and the motor is a different part number. However, the motors look identical so if they are, you can just buy a new head for your existing motor (T1241064) to use with the 955 airbox. It may be cheaper to buy a later IACV complete second hand.

Another thing to note if using the later 955 airbox, if you buy one from a Daytona the intake trumpets are shorter for power high in the rev range to match the Daytona engine. If you aren't using velocity stacks, it's best to get the trumpets from a Speed Triple, Sprint or Tiger (T2201765).

All post-2002 airboxes use the same mounting bracket on the cam cover, I don't know if the throttle body brackets are the same between 955 and 1050 airboxes though. They have different part numbers but look the same, I don't have both to compare.


Throttle Bodies
Pre-2002 throttle bodies have a smaller bore and mount in a completely different fashion to the cylinder head. Post 2002 throttle bodies are all 46mm bore and use a common mounting scheme so in theory they will all work. In practice if you're retaining the Sagem ECU then you have to use the throttle bodies from a 2002-2004 Speed Triple or 2002-2006 Daytona as they have a mounting point for the IACV. Post 2005 throttle bodies use a different idle control scheme which I doubt is compatible with the Sagem ECU, and it would be a pain to fabricate a bracket to get the IACV in the right place.

There are downsides to the 2002-2004 throttle bodies though, these engines had the IACV hoses go direct to ports in the head rather than the throttle bodies, so unless you have a 1050 engine from a bike that was fitted with an EVAP system then you won't have ports on the head to use. The bosses are still present on the casting so you can make your own ports, more on this later. Additionally, the TPS is on the other end and uses a different connector, and you will need to move to a dual throttle cable setup rather than the single cable on pre-2002 bikes.


Injectors & Fuel Rail
I looked at the parts diagrams and the upper injector O rings are constant through at least 1997-2015, so in theory any injector within these years can be swapped into any fuel rail. Physically all the injectors should fit, and they all have 2 pin Junior Timer plugs so will connect to the loom as well. I don't know, however, the operating voltage of all the various injectors, and if it is consistent across Sagem and Keihin ECUs.

Sagem ECUs have an injector flow rate listed in the map parameters which isn't present in maps for Keihin ECUs, or at least isn't accessible via TuneECU. I don't doubt there are figures for the 1050 injectors but I haven't been able to find them, and there is no context supplied for the values in the Sagem maps (% duty cycle, units, static/dynamic, etc) so there is no way to know if you're making a direct comparison. This makes using 1050 injectors with a Sagem ECU a non-starter. No pun intended.

There are two types of injectors used with Sagem ECU bikes, the flow value for the pre-2002 injectors (T1240891) is 285.8, and for post-2002 injectors (T1240892) it is 357.6. I took these from maps 10076 and 10156 respectively. Assuming the injector flow rate is the maximum flow rate based on the maximum duty cycle the ECU will allow, simple maths says the earlier injectors flow 80% of what the later injectors are capable of. I did some rough calculations and assuming 100% volumetric efficiency, a 2002-2006 Daytona uses 10% more air (and thus fuel) at full chat than a 1050 (11,500 vs 9,500 rpm).

Therefore, the later 955 injectors should be suitable for running a 1050 without bumping up against their flow limit, while the earlier injectors will likely top out at around 89% of the fuel flow needed for a 1050 engine at full chat, so they aren't suitable.

A lot of people who have done 1050 conversions have had to deal with the fact that Triumph moved from a feed/return fuel rail to a feed only rail. I've seen mention of modifying the fuel pump plate plumbing inside the tank to only have one outlet, but given that any injector will fit in any rail this is totally unnecessary. Happily, Triumph didn't bother to change the injector spacing between cylinders at all between 955 and 1050 engines. Just put your chosen injectors in your existing feed/return rail and away you go. Additionally, all the throttle bodies post 2002 use the same fuel rail mounting bracket (T1240561) so you aren't tied to a particular fuel rail based on your chosen throttle bodies.

The move to the feed only rail was at some point in the post 2002 955 engines. If for some reason you prefer/have a feed only rail, then you could buy the feed only fuel pump plate (T1241088) to match your fuel tank. This is only feasible if you have a tank with a 14 hole pump plate, at some point before 2000 the fuel pump plate used a 10 hole mounting arrangement.
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Last edited by Rampant; 11-06-2019 at 01:47 PM.
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-06-2019, 01:34 PM
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Excellent - Iíll save this to read later.
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-06-2019, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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Putting 955 Idle Ports in a 1050 Cylinder Head

As I mentioned earlier, the 2002+ 955 engines control the idle speed through an air bypass system that goes directly into the intake ports in the head, and there are no ports on the 955 throttle bodies.

1050 engines use a different idle system so normally don't have ports in the head to exploit, but in markets where an EVAP system is installed, the ports are fitted for that. The bosses remain on the casting for the head either way, so I've installed vacuum ports in them while I have the head off for the engine rebuild.

I bought some brass 6mm vacuum barbs (to match the ports on the IACV) with 1/8 BSPT threads, and a 1/8 BSPP tap set. Working on one cylinder at a time, I removed the intake valves to ensure I could completely clean the intake port of swarf after I was done. I then drilled a 4mm hole (to match the barb internal bore) in the centre of each boss all the way through into the intake port. Make sure you deburr the hole where it emerges into the intake port. It feels wrong to be drilling into a cylinder head, I can tell you!

Next I used the tap drill to drill into the boss a little deeper than the length of the threads on the barbs, and cut the threads into the boss with a tap wrench. After blowing out all the swarf (wish I had a compressor!) I put some threadlock on the barb thread and screwed it in. In theory you shouldn't need it as the tapered male thread into the parallel female thread should seal itself, but I figured better safe that sorry. Then I replaced the valves and moved onto the next cylinder.



Job done! I will have to modify the fuel rail mounting bracket as the vacuum barb for cylinder #2 will foul it, but that shouldn't be hard.
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Last edited by Rampant; 11-06-2019 at 02:22 PM.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-06-2019, 03:17 PM Thread Starter
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Swapping 6th Gear to the Sprint GT 1:1 Ratio

Since I have split the cases on the engine for the rebuild, I thought I might as well change the ratio for sixth to the lower ratio from a Sprint GT. This mod takes the 6th ratio from 29/27 (1.074:1) to 28/28 (1:1). I'm doing this as the taller sixth gear means lower RPM when cruising on the motorway etc (3925 vs 4215 rpm @ 70 mph), so should increase fuel economy when touring. It also increases the theoretical top speed of the bike from 157.8 mph to 169.4 mph (with my planned 1050 in a 2000 frame) according to Gearing Commander, but I don't particularly care about that.

With the engine cases split, this is an incredibly easy job. That's one hell of a caveat though! You will need:

- Sprint GT 6th gear (input) T1181566
- Sprint GT 6th gear (output) T1181567
- Circlips x2 T3500270

I didn't bother with the circlips as my gearbox has recently been replaced, but the service manual states you should replace them.

The output shaft simply lifts out of the split engine cases. The input shaft only comes out once you've undone 2 bolts clamping the main bearing into the upper crankcase half.

The input shaft is the easier of the two to change. You literally just pull off the bearing cap, bearing, thrust washer, the first gear (actually 2nd gear lol) and then the next gear is sixth. Slide it off its bush and put on your new 6th gear (matching the orientation of the 6th you just removed) after lubricating the internal bore with engine oil. If the bush comes off it's not a problem. Just make sure that when you put it back on, you align it so the oil hole DOES NOT align with the oil hole on the shaft. This is critical to maintain oil pressure and proper lubrication of the gears. I put mine on with the oil hole on the opposite side to the shaft oil hole to be sure. Then you just put everything back on the same way is came off, and you are done with the input shaft!

Here is my disassembled input shaft:


Here are the two 6th gears for comparison, the new 28 tooth gear is on the left:


And here is the reassembled input shaft:


The output shaft takes a little longer as you have to remove more gears to get at 6th. Start with the bearing cap etc as per the input shaft and take off the first two gears. You'll then need to remove a circlip before you can remove the next two gears and their associated thrust washers and bushes etc. There's one more circlip then you can remove 6th. Slide your new 6th gear onto the shaft, matching the orientation of the one you removed, and as before align it so the oil hole DOES NOT align with the oil hole on the shaft. Fit a new circlip then put everything back on in the same order and orientation, noting the alignment (lack thereof!) of the bush oil hole with the shaft oil hole, and replacing the other circlip. Job done.

I also replaced my output shaft seal (T3600112) while I had the shaft out as these commonly leak and it's really easy to replace with the shaft out.

Here is my disassembled output shaft:


Here are the two 6th gears for comparison, the new 28 tooth gear is on the left:


And here is the reassembled output shaft:


Put both shafts back into the upper crankcase half, making sure all the bearing caps and circlips etc seat in the correct places in the crankcase, and that you do up the input shaft retainers. The service manual states you should replace the two bolts but I don't see the need, they're not exactly exerting a lot of torque (12Nm). Then just chuck the crankcase halves back together and pop the engine back in your bike lol
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-07-2019, 08:20 PM
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For this build I would definitely do the Daytona exhaust cam swap in as discussed some years ago at length.

cheers,

Phil
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 10:05 AM Thread Starter
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Phil, I was partly inspired by your project thread (esp. the Sprint GT 6th gear) so thanks for chiming in

I've considered the Daytona cam swap as part of this and I think I've managed to find all of the details on the recommended cam positions etc. Unfortunately Daytona exhaust camshafts by themselves seem to be super rare. Unless I buy a complete Daytona cylinder head for the sake of one camshaft, it's gonna be difficult to get hold of one. I'm keeping an eye out though.

I also found conflicting reports of whether it just lifts the torque curve across the graph or if it moves the peak torque higher in the rev range. I want the keep the mid-range grunt so not sure if this would give me what I want?
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 12:56 PM
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Iíve just finished reading through the latest instalment - it is fascinating. I really enjoyed reading of the sixth gear swap.
Well done, and keep up the good work.
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 06:34 PM
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Wow I didn't realize there was a global shortage of Daytona 955i cams!
My suggestion was based largely on your intention to use the Daytona headers which have the larger primaries.
I have some experience with these mods but am by no means an expert. My only personal experience with these cams & exhaust in a 1050 motor was when I was helping Rob (aka com5984) build one of his S3's for the BEARS racing series. Ultimately this motor made just over 130RWHP compared to my Sprint with standard cams and headers at around 126.

I also rode the bike on the road and can say, as an owner of a Daytona 955i also, that it's power was something in between the two as expected. It was starting to build power around 4k and definitely a better mid-top end pull. It did, however, seem like it wanted to keep making power at the lower redline.
You may have read about my Daytona project on Triumph Torque before the forum shut down? That was mainly the TB as you are doing, port matching, some mild head work and the biggie I think was re-timing the cams. All that transformed the bike.
If I was after a fatter mid-range, I would do the TB's, use stock headers but port matched, and re-time the stock cams.

cheers,

Phil
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 07:04 AM Thread Starter
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@sussurf - Iím not sure about a global shortage lol but theyíre no longer available from Triumph and I havenít found any on ebay over the last couple of months.

Ah fair enough, did you get to see the dyno graphs at all? Iím curious if doing the cam swap would lose you anything from the original performance while adding more power, i.e. was the new graph always above the old graph?

I never saw your thread on Triumph Torque before it went down (such a loss!), just your one on here when you did your Sprint. Iíve not heard of re-timing the stock cams, tell me more!

@Othen Ė Cheers
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 04:44 AM Thread Starter
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Sumps

As mentioned earlier it's best not to use the 2011+ sump as it limits ground clearance. There are a number of options:

T1234567
This is the sump used on 2002+ Daytonas and 1050 Sprints. As I'm using the Daytona headers I figured this was my best option, but had difficulty finding them second hand for a reasonable price. here is an example pic I nicked from ebay:


T1230212
I found that early 2002-2006 Daytonas used this sump, and they are much cheaper and plentiful secondhand. Confusingly, it also was used on pre-2002 bikes which have the banjo fittings for the oil coolers, so beware if you are looking at buying one. Later versions of this part number don't have the banjo fittings machined in.

If you look the part number up on Fowlers etc it is not linked to any bikes, I suspect Triumph have changed the part numbers to rectify the poor config management, but the castings retain the original part number.

In comparison to T1234567 these sumps are bare aluminium and have a cylindrical protrusion on the front face.


T1230077
This is the proper 2005-2010 Speed Triple sump, but I couldn't find any for a reasonable price secondhand.

I think you should be able to use any of these sumps without issue but I went for T1230212 as it was cheap and definitely shouldn't foul the headers.

Last edited by Rampant; 11-12-2019 at 12:20 PM.
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