'08 Speed blowing the #6 fuse 20A repeatedly - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 10-02-2019, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
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'08 Speed blowing the #6 fuse 20A repeatedly

Hey folks, I'm outta my mind and could use some help.

My bike started blowing fuses early this spring but at the time the only symptom showing was the bike would not start. The #6 (EMS fuse) blows after the kill switch is flipped to start. Ignition key does not do it, only when the kill switch moves and then a dead starter button - no nothing. Battery is great, voltage fine, everything else seems to work okay.

I initially took it to my local Triumph dealer for help with the non-starting, after I'd replaced the battery, thinking maybe it had gone bad - it was less than 2 yrs old and I keep it tendered always. They said they found issues with the way the new battery was sitting (my install) and routing of some cables, they had a bunch of error codes when they hooked up the computer and cleared the codes. They replaced the fuse and it started for them no problem (again, at that time, I hadn't noticed the fuse blowing). I was able to pick it up, start it and get it home thinking it was fine.

I put it on the tender that night, next morning, no start, I couldn't believe it. I didn't check right away but the same problem was happening, fuse #6 blowing.

I was pissed, checked my wiring and found the fuse #6 blown. I also checked the EMS relay and replaced it just in case. Called the dealer, (again, neither they nor myself had narrowed it to the fuse) so they talked me into letting them come pick it up (of course I paid for it), they had it for a while and messed with the battery some more finding some brass jumpers they said I didn't install and they missed the last time, cleared codes, replaced fuse and tried swapping the relay also and to their credit they put in some time riding it around town, pulling over, shutting it off, letting it sit and starting it up again and riding some more. They said they did that about 8 times and never had it NOT start.

I was very glad they put in the extra time and effort so I picked it up, it did start again for me in their parking lot. Got it home (I have about a 40 mile freeway drive home from them), put it on the tender. Next morning, you guessed it - fuse blew again, no start, same problem. I'm wondering if the ride home from the dealer causes enough vibration to make something shake loose or bad connection gone worse? But, if the dealer didn't address that problem, since they were not able to reproduce the blown fuse, why am I able to make it happen (over a dozen times now) in my garage without it starting even once???

I've not bothered to call them nor even consider going there again. I realize they never did get the problem to duplicate so I can't blame them for not seeing what only happened to me. I just can't keep throwing cash (over $600 now) at their over-busy shop to not fix my problem.

SOoooo, I'm trying to fix it myself. I've used my manuals and followed the wiring diagrams. This fuse runs to the EMS relay (which is good, as far as I can tell) then to the ECM and the alternator. I've also replaced my kill switch and starter cluster just in case (hoping it was gonna be the fix and $133 later, it isn't). So I've pulled out the ECM and chased wire looms looking for splits and rubbed casings - no joy. Everything in the battery box area looks fine and is pretty well wrapped up and out of the way. It's been dry all summer and nothing is wet. I can't find any loose connections or really dirty ones either.

Here are my current concerns:
1) I don't know how to check continuity between ends of wires and even if I did (I do have a multimeter) I can't dig through the wire mess deep into the frame of my bike to get both ends of the wires to test - it's a nightmare in there. Getting the ECM out was like pulling a baby out of the top of the mother's stomach - it was a mess.
2) I don't want to keep replacing parts hoping to get lucky. ECM's I hear run around $1100 and I've heard alternators can be rebuilt but still.
3) At this point I have an 11 yr old bike with 35k miles and I'm just worried it's at some point in its life that it may have a serious problem I can't discover.
4) I have a bike all pulled apart that I couldn't ride this whole season and perhaps now it's not worth anything but to part out - which no one really wants bits of anyway because of the age.
5) I've scoured the internet and these forums and can't find ANYONE else with the same problem so I'm worried that portends something awful.

Sorry for the length, it's been a hard season of frustration.

Thanks,
Matt
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 10-03-2019, 12:52 PM
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Fuse 6 is powering quite a lot of stuff. Through the Engine Management Relay.


I guess what you call EMS is referred as Engine Management Relay in the workshop manual.
I also guess that you tried to remove this relay and then the kill switch didn't blow the fuse 6.

The kill switch powers the Engine Management Relay.
What I propose is to first buy a bunch of fuses (20A).
First put back everything together again.
In the following "test" means try to start and then check the fuse 6. If this test doesn't blow the fuse we got a clue.

Then you will first try to several things:
1-remove relay 30 (fan) switch and test. Put it back
2-unplug each of the ignition coils and test. Very unlikely as the ground is switched by the ECU while running. Plug them back.
3-If you are in CA then disconnect the purge valve and test. Plug it back. If not go step4.
4-unplug the O2 sensor and test (O2 heater). Plug it back.
5-unplug each of the injectors and test. Very unlikely as the ground is switched by the ECU while running.Plug them back.
6-unplug the air injection solenoid and test. Very unlikely as the ground is switched by the ECU while running. Plug it back.
7-unplug the ECU and test. Plug it back.


Please report the results. If no clue then we'll seek the short to frame (second step).


Fred

Last edited by fredsprint; 10-03-2019 at 01:20 PM.
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 10-03-2019, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredsprint View Post
The kill switch powers the Engine Management Relay.
Well no, not directly - the Kill Switch enables the Power to the ECU and then the ECU send a signal to enable the EMS Relay

And
Quote:
7-unplug the ECU and test. Plug it back.
When you unplug the ECU the EMS relay will not be on anyway!

Quote:
. If no clue then we'll seek the short to frame (second step)
I would suspect it is extremely unlikely to be a device failure (per the previous suggestions 1-7) and is much more likely to be this, an exposed wire short to ground.
One of the most likely sources for this is the O2 sensor harness wire having been burned on the exhaust itself (unplugging the sensor will not eliminate this if it is indeed the wire, as opposed to the device) - but it could be anywhere and you're probably going to have to go through a physical inspection to find where the issues lies.
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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 01:38 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you so much for your replies.

After disconnecting the ECU I turned on the ignition, flipped the kill switch and NO blown fuse. However, I also got nothing from the starter button either, wondered if maybe I unhooked something in the process? It should try to crank over, correct?

The O2 sensor was removed by the previous owner with a 3 into 1 exhaust conversion. I've never looked inside the exhaust to see the sensor wires or what he did there.

I reattached the ECU, turned the ignition on, flipped the kill switch and it blew again as usual. Does that rule out the wire to ground somewhere? Does this mean the ECU is really the culprit? I know computers but I don't have much experience with bikes nor ECUs - it looks like a mini hard drive with data ports.
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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAM-O View Post
After disconnecting the ECU I turned on the ignition, flipped the kill switch and NO blown fuse. However, I also got nothing from the starter button either
As I explained in my previous post, when you disconnect the ECU, the EMS relay will not turn on, therefor it is no surprise at all that fuse did not blow and really does not prove or disprove anything.
Nor will the starter run with the ECU disconnected as the starter relay also relies on signal for the ECU to enable it
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEcosse View Post
Well no, not directly - the Kill Switch enables the Power to the ECU and then the ECU send a signal to enable the EMS Relay

And

When you unplug the ECU the EMS relay will not be on anyway!
Here is the speed triple 1050 schematic. The red line is the Engine Management Relay +. The brown line is the Engine Management Relay ground. I don't see where the ECU come into play here. Can you point to it?





Fred
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAM-O View Post
Thank you so much for your replies.

After disconnecting the ECU I turned on the ignition, flipped the kill switch and NO blown fuse. However, I also got nothing from the starter button either, wondered if maybe I unhooked something in the process? It should try to crank over, correct?
The Starter Relay is grounded by the ECU. So no ECU, no starting or cranking over.

Quote:


The O2 sensor was removed by the previous owner with a 3 into 1 exhaust conversion. I've never looked inside the exhaust to see the sensor wires or what he did there.

It may be a good thing to double check. The connector may have been left alone touching the exhaust, so being melted.

Quote:


I reattached the ECU, turned the ignition on, flipped the kill switch and it blew again as usual. Does that rule out the wire to ground somewhere? Does this mean the ECU is really the culprit? I know computers but I don't have much experience with bikes nor ECUs - it looks like a mini hard drive with data ports.
Lets conduct another test:
remove the ECU and the Engine Management Relay. Then short the pin 87 and 30 (standard automotive relay pinout) that is on the schematic socket pin 1 and 8. See if it does blow the fuse 6.

The kill switch won't come into play here.



The ECU is a computer w/ analogical and digital (0/1 sensing or driving) ports plus a bus connection and some flash memory.


Fred

Last edited by fredsprint; 10-04-2019 at 04:44 AM.
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredsprint View Post
Here is the speed triple 1050 schematic.
Can barely make out your image but believe that is the 05-07 schematic
On 08, the Ignition circuit feeds the ECU and the ECU powers the EMS relay, which then feeds power back into the ECU and latches it on
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 10-05-2019, 06:01 AM
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OK so I don't have it.

Can you please post it (the two last pages) so that I can investigate further?


Fred
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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 10-05-2019, 07:52 AM
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I just got a daytona 675 manual. Seems to be the same generation electrically wise as the 2008 S3.
So yes they call it EMS relay now and yes it's powered by the ECU. Apart from than not much change.

So at that point nothing points toward the ECU.

So to keep on investigate you can either jump the relay socket as indicated in my previous post and keep on testing w/ fuse blowing or use a multi-meter on the Ohm position.

For using a multi-meter try first the lower position and put one pin on the relay socket (one of the switched pin - consumption side - that is the opposite the fuse side) and the second pin on the ground (battery - or chassis).

The measurement should indicate a very low resistance consistent w/ the fuse blowing.
As an indication, for blowing a 20A fuse it needs a resistance lower than 0.6 Ohm given the voltage is 12V.


Edit: 0.6 Ohms is very close to short circuit while using a multi-meter. So you may measure each peripheral individually, and inspect closely the accessible portion of wire and connector for each of them.



At that point you can start to remove/disconnect things as indicating in my first post until you get a much higher resistance.
Don't forget to inspect the O2 sensor connector.


Fred

Last edited by fredsprint; 10-07-2019 at 04:14 AM.
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