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05 Won’t Start. Searched and searched

4K views 57 replies 7 participants last post by  fredsprint 
#1 ·
Scoured the web and can’t find a solution. Please, it’s not the clutch switch or kick stand.

Details:
-05 Speed3, 15K miles. Don't know much about the history of the bike. Guy had to bump start it to get it going so I could drive it home.
-Bike won't start without a bump in 2nd gear. Jumping does nothing. Once it's started it idles and runs great.
-took the battery to Advance Auto, puts out ~14V, 225CCA (rated 190). Battery is on a tender while I troubleshoot.
-Volt at connected battery with ignition on starts over 13V
-Fuses and Relays are good as far as I can tell
-Bike just keeps cranking and cranking but won't turn over. No fuel smell coming from the exhaust
-fuel pump is good, it does prime, stuck a tube on it to make sure.
-replaced Plugs, old ones looked good. All 3 tested for spark, they looked good
-oil and filter changed
-Cleaned the wiring and contacts and grounds
-loaded 12102 ECU Map
-no error codes
-I did seize the sprag clutch. Started motor was making a screeching noise, not the cranking noise. I took apart the sprag and put it back together. It turns in 1 direction only very smoothly.
-it actually sounds better and very fast now when cranking (battery fully charged probably why its faster). Still won't turn.
-I can start the bike with a little starter fluid down the intakes. Again, idles and revs great. Let it run for 15mins to reset the ecu adaptation. Voltage to the battery is 13.5V and climbs. Once I shut it off, it won't restart without more fluid.

My thoughts: since it idles and runs and does eventually start with help, I'm guessing electrical, compression, fuel pump, injectors and coils are good. Plugs don't look fouled and I'm not smelling anything out of the exhaust, is the engine getting gas to start?
 
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#2 ·
-took the battery to Advance Auto, puts out ~14V, 225CCA (rated 190). Battery is on a tender while I troubleshoot.
No way was it 14V

-Volt at connected battery with ignition on starts over 13V
Not sure if I'm interpreting what you are saying there correctly, but again there is no way the voltage is 13V with ignition on

-loaded 12102 ECU Map
That is not a valid number for a Keihin map - should start with a 20***

20102 (if that's what it is) is an obsolete map replaced by 20272 - that is for serial number up to vin #281465 WITH Dual TOR exhausts (or other after-market duals) and WITH Catalyst and WITH SAI (Secondary Air Injection)
Does that match your configuration?
if not check what you have and match it against the correct map for your config.

Once you are satisfied you have the correct map loaded:
Check that the MAP sensor is connected properly and there are no leaks - using TuneECU on diagnostics, check the numbers with ignition on and on all three cylinders once you get it started (with your starter fluid if necessary) using the Tests screen for the 'balance' readings - that will help pinpoint if you have any leaks on the vac hoses.

Follow this procedure to set up your TPS/ISCV calibration - https://www.triumphrat.net/ecm-and-...7-tuneecu-tps-and-isc-stepper-adjustment.html
 
#3 ·
Thanks Decosse. Yeah, it’s not 14V. Just going off bad memory but looking at the printout out, it tested at 12.9V at the store. As for the 13V, I didn’t unplug the tender. It’s starts anywhere between 12.3-8 with it unplugged. Also, bad memory, the map does start with 20###. I just remember the last digits, ##102. The original map on the bike was 20102. I just got a copy of that map from the obsolete tuneecu section and loaded it. The bike has a 3to1 MIVV with SAI and O2. Would 20272 be a better map? I’ll get it going and get those balance values. Thanks Again, really appreciate your help.
 
#5 ·
i know you mentioned you had the battery on the charger, the 1050 loves CCA's for start up ... i had a battery that would check out on the charger (showed fully charged) but it was on its way out (batteries can hold charged but overtime lose the starting power quality CCA's) and it would not satisfy my Speedy's appetite with enough CCA's to start it ... even with jumper cables from a car battery. in the end I bit the bullet and I got a new battery which then, bike started right away. have you tested the battery you are using on maybe a different bike to make sure it has enough juice to start it. Also i know you changed the plugs but have you check the coils ... i have an 05 and it had the old stile coil seals and they were rusty as hell changed over to the new style and no moisture has gone inside the plug wells
 
#7 ·
Finally had a little time today to work in the bike. The battery puts out 13.47V ignition off. It drops to 12.8 ignition on and after about 30seconds it holds steady at 12.47V.

I loaded the 20213 map.

I got a new battery and installed it. Bike still won’t start. Not battery.

I added seafoam to the gas tank.

Started the bike up with starter fluid. Got my balance readings and they are really high at 900, 860, and 850! What does that mean. I let the bike run for about 10minutes or so and shut it off and restarted a few times. It starts up instantly. About an hour or so later I tried starting it again, no luck.

Noticed while it was idling that every few minutes the idle would have a slight hesitation for a few seconds and then idle normal again. Also, I’m not familiar with the S3 but it feels like it runs really hot and it’s only idling. The temperature gauge actually hit 7 bars (100C). The radiator fan does turn on and when it does it feels like a heat gun. Coolant reservoir is topped off.

That’s all I had time for today. Didn’t get a chance for a TPS/ISC calibration. I’m gonna swap out my gas next go around in case it is the fuel.

So what’s the high compression mean and is this temperature/heat normal? And how is this related to my starting problems?
 
#11 ·
The battery puts out 13.47V ignition off. It drops to 12.8 ignition on and after about 30seconds it holds steady at 12.47V.
That battery seems perfect - holding strong voltage after 30 secs with lights on shows it was in good shape - not sure why you installed a new one.

.... Got my balance readings and they are really high at 900, 860, and 850! What does that mean. ....
It means you have massive air leak;

Note that ~ 1000 would be atmospheric pressure - the lower the number the 'more' vacuum; when the number is closer to 1000, it means that air is leaking in increasing the pressure.
Incidentally - what was your idle speed under those conditions with the balance pressures around 900???

I would initially be focusing on the fact they are seriously high, rather than the 'balance' difference. i.e. resolve the leak issue first and then get them balanced.

Here is an image from a Speed Triple that has pretty good balance - all three cylinders are in the 600's.
If you do a search on the forum you will find that all similar images of Speed Triple balance screen show numbers in the 600's.

(Photo courtesy of @Speedycaptain)

 
#8 ·
Forgot to mention, obviously related to the fuel but could be indicative of bad or stale fuel, but the plastic gas tank expanded almost an inch. There’s no way I’m getting this tank back on. Bike came missing the mount screw and came to find out that the hole is actually stripped. I’ve read that nose have seen maybe 1/2” expansion but I’m literally at a full 1”.
 
#9 · (Edited)
It seems like your charging system is working overtime to keep your battery voltage up. In the "Charging Systems Diagnostics - Rectifier/Regulator Upgrade" sticky, with the bike running at idle, voltage should at least be in the 13's. It might point to a charging system issue.

Have you flushed your cooling system and replaced the coolant?

I bought a used 2006 SV1000S last year which had been sitting for several years with half a tank of gas in it it. The tank was rusted pretty good and the fuel pump was very corroded from the ethanol/water that sank to the bottom of the tank. Surprisingly, my fuel injectors worked great (after I figured out that the misfiring at high rpm was due to my spark plug wires needing a trim).

My fuel pump looked like this:


I hope you find the source of your troubles!
 
#10 ·
My fuel pump is good. I know that because I replaced it. When I did the replacement, everything looked good. The old pump was still good but I already had a new pump and I already had it open. I can add the coolant flush to my list of things to try.
 
#13 ·
Another thing from that image - your system voltage only showing 12.2V - have you physically checked the voltage at battery with a meter with engine running? Looks like a generating system problem (but wont be impacting those vac readings)
You need to check all the hoses and their connections at the various nipples - also be sure nothing in that system is 'open'
 
#15 ·
For a test, try this:
Turn on ignition, Kill Switch to Run;
Let it complete Prime;
Without awaiting a delay hit Kill, then Run again (so the Prime steps are pretty much back to back)
Repeat several times;
On say the third or fourth prime do not wait for the Prime Step to compete but immediately hit the starter button ..........

Does that make any difference?
If it does, it points to a leak down of fuel pressure - pump will be running constantly when its started and maybe able to overcome a small leak; but not with a single prime and possibly a few seconds delay before you press the button.
Ideally you get a fuel pressure gauge, but that test just might show something ........
Even though you changed the pump itself, there may still be a problem in the fittings.

I know this bike is new to you - not sure if you are new to Triumphs in general - don't touch the throttle while attempting to start it, especially now you have the vacuum leak sorted out.

With it running can you now switch to the diagnostic screen and open all the tabs on the left and post a screen shot of that.

p.s. if you had done the '12 min tune' with the leak, you might want to do that again - reset the adaptions and re-run it.
 
#16 ·
That didn’t work. Rocked the kill switch maybe a dozen times. Hitting the starter doesn’t do anything till after the prime cycle is complete, which in any case didn't work anyways.

I took apart the fuel rail and each injector. Actuated each injector with a battery and blew high pressure air through each one. Saw a nice stream of gas through each one.

All my hoses looked great. Wiped each one down and no cracks.

Not sure what to try next.

Side note, I’m a Harley guy. Working on this bike makes really appreciate the simplicity of American muscle.
 

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#18 ·
OK, so you validated the injectors are spraying when manually operated - have you checked if they fire while the bike is cranking?

Monitor the voltage across the pump connector wires - if that does not go to 12V when you are cranking*, then likely the same issue as the injectors not firing
* after the prime step and pump shuts off, then it should re-start once the ECU starts seeing crank pulses.

Pull the Crank Position Sensor and inspect it - make sure that it does not have a build up of material on the face (it's magnetic)
That is located on the left side, just inboard of the stator cover.
It is not adjustable, fixed gap but just be sure it is not covered in crud.

Other interlocks that might prevent injectors operating are the kick-stand/neutral combo or the Tip-Over Switch - however those would also inhibit from running once started, as well as the starter itself from running (for the kick-stand/neutral anyway - not sure if the TOS interlocks the starter)
 
#20 · (Edited)
Pull the Crank Position Sensor and inspect it - make sure that it does not have a build up of material on the face (it's magnetic)
That is located on the left side, just inboard of the stator cover.
It is not adjustable, fixed gap but just be sure it is not covered in crud.
Maybe double checking sparks w/ spark plugs unplugged and touching the ground/frame/engine would be equivalent and simpler providing the air box is still removed.



BTW checking that the injector is spitting (injector pulled and connected) while trying to start is relatively easy to do. The amount of fuel is really low so that it's not dangerous.


Fred
 
#21 ·
I pulled the CPS and it looked clean. I pulled the fuel injectors and took a vid of them firing while cranking the bike and they do fire. Can’t seem to post vids from my phone so attached a pic of them firing. So, I got fuel, I got spark, I got compression. One of these has to be weak that the bike won’t fire on its own. Plugs already replaced and they aren’t fouled so maybe coils? I’m going to try the electrical system upgrade mentioned in the forums since I’ve already got everything taken apart. What else?
 

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#23 · (Edited)
The amount of fuel that is injected while starting is supposed to be very low. When I say spitting, I mean it.

Please try the video again. Put it in youtube and post the url here.


I guess the video you're referring to is the following:




BTW if you are careful enough you''ll remark the each injector is spitting at each turn. The reason is that there is no cam sensor on the triumph engines. So the ECU try to determine which turn corresponds to the intake phase. Once started the injection take place in every other turn.


If you get sparks the crank sensor is fine. You should get a sparks at the same time the injectors are supposed to inject fuel.



If you get the initial injectors actuation but none afterward, it may mean that your map is not the correct one.



Fred
 
#24 ·
...
BTW if you are careful enough you''ll remark the each injector is spitting at each turn. The reason is that there is no cam sensor on the triumph engines. So the ECU try to determine which turn corresponds to the intake phase. Once started the injection take place in every other turn.
It does not say in the video link what model Daytona that is - if it's a 955, it would be a Sagem ECU and with a 675 it would be a Keihin - they use very different means of timing the Injectors and coils for the correct cycle.
On a Sagem, it knows TDC for cylinder 1 and everything is timed off that - it does not know which is the firing stroke until it actually DOES fire and then it looks at the rate of change of speed of the other rotor teeth to determine when it has fired.
On a Keihin (like the OP's 1050) the timing is determined by the intake pressure measured from the MAP sensor - the ECU compares the Crank Position timing with the vacuum pressure timing and so knows which is the correct firing stroke.
i.e. the Sagem has no way to tell until after it actually fires and creates an acceleration of the crank;
the Keihin knows from the first intake stroke what the correct cycle it needs to be on.

I would say the video is probably a Sagem (955) since it is does appear to be firing on every cycle (and clearly the engine is not running)
So you can't really compare that situation with what would be happening on your bike @WhyOWhy


If you get sparks the crank sensor is fine. You should get a sparks at the same time the injectors are supposed to inject fuel.
No, the fuel would not be injected at same time as spark - the fuel already has to be in the intake runner before or during the induction stroke, then you have the compression stroke and THEN it fires the ignition towards the top of the compression stroke, about 360 deg (i.e. one complete crank revolution) later.
 
#27 ·
Well, my hoses are good. Visually inspected and all good. If there was a hose issue, I would see it in my balance readings. Originally, one of the hoses would pop off at the 4way fitting when trying to fire it up. I’ve since zip tied all those. Recall, I get about 610-620 hPa on all three cylinders. If the MAP sensor can read those pressures, can I not assume the MAP sensor is good? With a good idle and pressure and eventual assisted ignition , can I rule out the CPS?
 
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