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'16 Speed Triple Front Brake Issue (Brembo)

94K views 469 replies 52 participants last post by  apt_philly 
#1 ·
Hello all, my Speed Triple has developed a condition where the front brake must be pumped once for a solid response. To be clear, there is a 1/2 inch (or more) difference between the first pull of the brake and a second pump. Further, it doesn't stay pumped... every time I apply the brakes, I have to do a double pump. Really frustrating, as the system has been bled countless times to no avail, master cylinder replaced under warranty (no difference) and most recently ABS pump replacement (no difference). Any ideas as to what else would cause this to happen?
 
#2 ·
I have a ‘16 as well and I’ve noticed that double pump difference actually today.
I’ve been overseas for 9 days and upon return I picked up the bike at the airport’s lot, the lever went down almost touching the grip, second pump was almost normal, maybe half way and third one was normal.
This tells me that this may be normal operation if it’s happening to other bikes, especially with the indirect ABS box. As per my mechanic, brakes with ABS will feel not as sharp but more “progressive” as you squeeze.
I remember my 2010’s brakes were way more responsive than these fancy-pants system. I guess it’s all about having ABS nowadays.
I just ordered a racing-grade brembo fluid with hardness higher than 5.1 fluids and brembo brake pads also racing grade which operate at cold temps too. I still have some of the old pads left to wear so I’ll report when I replace those parts.
There’s not really much more you can do since you bled the system assuming that the fluid you’ve used was from a new, sealed bottle that’s is.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for the comparison. Check out a new speed triple in the showroom. I've tried several and none do this. All work was done under warranty by a factory mechanic. They are stumped, as are the techs at Triumph. I'd think that if this is a development, rather than an existing-from-new issue, something is off. I ride in the city every day and the double-pump thing is getting a bit old. Yeah man, please let me know what results you get, will follow the thread.
 
#6 ·
Yup! Now that I've gotten some proper seat time on my '17 S3, there is definitely a lot more "play" in the front brake lever vs my previous S3's. I'm with Nicspeed as to the reason why; ABS. On mine, it seems the brake lever firms up nicely the harder you brake. These are really great brakes too.
 
#7 ·
Traded my 16 for a 19 recently. The issues you have are the same as my 16.
I had Pazzo levers and on low setting could pull them to the hand grip.
Made several claims to dealer who didn’t do anything to resolve.
It actually improved a little on its own after 15,000 miles????
Last resort was to purchase Brembo pads but never got around to install before trading for the 19S version.
Still have the pads if anyone is interested.
 
#10 ·
Thanks. Same here. Pazzos touch the grip at low setting. There is no way this is ok. Still under warranty, so hoping it can be somehow sorted. Really not cool having to double-pump every time I brake.
So far, the lines have been bled multiple times (by dealer), new master cylinder and new ABS pump. No improvement. Back to the drawing board and def not comfortable with accepting this as a "characteristic" of a $13K machine.
 
#9 ·
I'm new to motorcycles maintenance but the first thing that comes to mind in a car is improper bleeding (which still might be the case - mechanics are notorious for being wrong). For example my mechanic bled my system on my car three times before I had him switch which brake was bled first, aND bingo! Problem solved. I know it was a car, but still same concept.

Second is I'd guess there is water in the line. Maybe the cap in the reservoir was improperly sealed and allowed moisture in.

Next I'd say the master cylinder is going bad, one of the internal pressure plates or whatever. Also maybe a bad piston in the calipers.

Just my guess here lol.

FYI my '19 S has no soft brake issue like your describing.
 
#11 ·
That sounds a lot like the symptoms of having air in the system somewhere. Might not be. If it is, the problem can be that it is hard to bleed ABS systems properly. Bleeding at the junctions can help - I have a friend who had this issue on a Thruxton and resolved it that way. for what it's worth...
 
#17 ·
If you want to work on it yourself, try this on a dry day:

Get some brake cleaner and some Permatex Brake Piston Lubricant from your local auto parts store, loosen the pad securing pin, remove the pads and remove the left hand caliper.
Loosely reinstall the pads and pump the pads shut against a clean screw driver.
Cover all body work with an old towel and remove the master cylinder cover.
Hit the pistons with brake cleaner and a paper towel and put the piston lube on the pistons with a Q-tip or similar.
Gently lever the pads back, pump the pads shut, repeat a few time, reinstall caliper.
Clean the pad securing pin and give it a light coat of anti seize, install pads, torque caliper mounting bolts.

Do the same thing to the right hand caliper.
Pump brake firm, check fluid level, reinstall master cylinder cap.

With any luck, that should do the trick.
 
#18 ·
If there is air in the system then you need to get it out. ABS systems have control units that sit between m/c and calipers and they tend to have various unions which mean air will not easily travel all the way from caliper to m/c. For a start, if you work on the calipers, bleed them afterwars as the bleed nipples tend to be the highest point of the caliper - there is no point in working the pistons back and forth to shift air if it collects at the bleed nipple but doesn't get bled. You can bleed every union like a caliper by applying slight pressure at lever, cracking the relevant banjo or union, and doing up again as small amount of fluid seeps out. Makes sense to bleed m/c this way as well (some m/cs have a bleed nipple for that purpose, but my S3 doesn't so I just use the banjo to bleed it). If you are methodical in that way then you have a decent chance of removing most air from system. On my ABS bike (not a Triumph) I don't need to bleed all the unions but I do bleed m/c; on my S3 I displace the left side caliper and drop it below right side caliper to take brake line over mudguard out of equation as air can sit at the top of the brake hose. And as i mentioned i have a friend whose problem was only fixed by dealer bleeding the abs unit too. If you have eliminated the possibility of air in the system, then look at other issues. But you should be able to get something passable
 
#20 ·
@Steve Ford thinking in line with my thoughts - I think there is stiction of the seals on the pistons in the calipers - the seals are pulling the pistons back again, leaving a large gap between the pads and the rotor, hence the double pump to get it to close and work. Then they get retracted again by the elastic nature of the seals, after the pressure is off. Normally they should be 'self-adjusting' effectively only retracting so pad is only marginally off the rotor (almost touching but not applying any braking force).
You recognize this effect when you install new pads - you push back the pistons to create the space required for the new thicker pads; then, even with bleeding, when you pull the lever initially it will not yield any resistance and you need to 'pump' the lever several times and then it will be rock hard all of a sudden - this is because there is not resistance as the pistons/pads are moving only very small distance and require multiple pumps until that gap is closed up; of course then it should stay there. So the double pump is kinda doing the same thing, it needs to move the pad initially and then again with the second pump. You are talking very small distance here, compared to the lever travel.
You might actually find new pads would at least temporarily 'fix' it, as the pistons would have to be pressed back into a different position within the caliper cylinder than the current pad thickness allows. But it will likely return again.
If still under warranty I would request new set of calipers and of course yet another bleed would be necessary. I hate to disagree with Steve since we are essentially on the same page, but whether you or the shop does the work, the calipers need to be stripped and cleaned and new seals (& maybe even pistons replaced). But under warranty I'd be insisting on replacement calipers.

Incidentally Speed Triples underwent a very similar problem with the 05-06 S3's with Nissin calipers - Triumph did not do a full recall but offered a 'goodwill' replacement of the pistons with those from the Daytona 675, for anyone who asked.

 
#21 · (Edited)
+1 on what was just said about excessive elastic memory in the caliper seals pulling the pistons back too far back into the calipers - should only be enough to retract the pads off the disc a fraction.

And. like DEcosse, I've been around Hinckley triples and forums such as this, long enough to remember the similar issues with '05 - '06 S3s. Not to mention the brake issues with all variants of the 955 for years before then, but that's another story .....sigh...

As it's under warranty do as DEcosse says and push the shop for replacement calipers. Otherwise I'd pull the pads, push the pistons as far back as possible in the bores and clean very carefully the very front part of the bore surface. It's best to actually remove the pistons but of course it's a lot more work. Do not use anything overly aggressive on the bores. You'll also find that new pads will push the pistons back a little more so the pistons are operating in a cleaner section of the bore. The better feel after a couple of pumps is what leads many to think there's air getting in the system and leads to countless, often quite creative, brake bleeding attempts all to no avail. I've taken the liberty of scratching a small sketch and attaching it here to try and show what's happening.
 

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#22 · (Edited)
It sounds to me like the pistons aren't retracting properly.
I just got done with a Sprint whose brakes were just terrible (two full pumps to firm them up) and a half hour of screwing around with the pistons and now they're just perfect.

You won't get much exposed piston bore but you can get an awful lot of exposed piston to clean and lube.

P.S.
My guess is the manufacturer hired someone who is being unusually frugal with the piston and seal grease which explains the problem.
 
#23 · (Edited)
.....You won't get much exposed piston bore......
Agreed, however it is the small exposed section forward of the pistons that is the problem together with debris and deterioration of the piston surface just about where they meet the seals. It only starts to be used as the pads wear - that's why the OP is only now experiencing the problem. The pad wear over time is usually commensurate with the deterioration of the bore and piston surface over the same time and conspire to start the problem.

New pads will fix the problem for a while but of course this exposes more of the bore forward of the seals allowing the debris buildup/bore degradation to creep a little further back.
 
#24 ·
Add me to this list of double pump lever. I noticed this issue last few rides on my '17 S3R. Double pump to get nice firm lever feel.
Only 2K miles and out of warranty by time, on stock pads.
Also, bleed brakes at MC first, then at the caliper. I used the push/pull technique (pumping lever with an attached vacuum brake pump), but to no avail.
Will check pads, replace seals, clean pistons, bleed again and see if any improvement.
 
#25 · (Edited)
The bleeding and pad check I’d say yes, since it’s routine maint. Even if it only has 2k miles air gets in the lines somehow, but since it seems to be a popular issue it might as well be an engineering mistake, meaning that is highly unlikely that all of our seals are indeed dirty/defective?
I’m suspecting there are many more owners with the same issue but they got used to it and no longer notice the fault. Now “upgrading” from a 1050 which has the sharpest lever feel and brake power on the market OTD it kinda feels like a slap on the face.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I have search up and down since last night, but I can't find a seal kit only. They sell the seals with the pistons at a steep price.
Although it might be worth doing new pistons $157.80 per caliper, that is insanely crazy. This is to fix the brake feel, but maybe not a sure thing or only temporary fix.
Is this the only way???
Triumph PISTON & SEAL KIT, CALIPER Part # T2021458

Thinking furthermore, if the pistons are dirty and not sliding freely, the brake pad would have uneven wear. I can't believe, that they all went bad at the same time, so inclined to think it is the ABS system.

Ok, today (6/10/19) I bleed slowly all again, shook the braided line just in case, but to no avail. The issue is still present even with the bike off. So, it can't be the ABS acting, plus ABS can be disable temporarily; therefore not having any input on the braking system.
I pressed the brakes at the same time feeling with my finger the brake pads and you can feel the piston retracting almost immediately. I am going to bite the bullet and rebuild the 2K miles calipers and replace pads too. After, if no solution, I will take to a lawyer and weigh the options depending on the advise. This is total BS on a $15K bike. My 1988 Honda Hurricane has better brake FEEL, as well as the 2004 GSXR.
Yes, the S3R brakes better, but the scare factor is not worth it.
 
#28 ·
I have to retract my earlier statement. I actually do have the same issue. Just didn't pump the brakes to realize it until now lol.

I have only 700 miles on the clock on my '19 S3S (factory Brembo M4.32 fronts, Nissin rears) and they have been this way since I picked her up so assuming it's not something that's developed from dirt or time. I'll take her in and see what happens and report back. I'm in the USA if that matters.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Big break there, as warranty claims can get a bit petty to get them approved, like my “too slight of a wobble on my front rotors” to get covered claim just before warranty expired.
But it makes sense the master cylinder is the culprit here since every other option hasn’t fixed it. Def keep us posted on results, maybe we can get together and make a cluster claim for those out of warranty that are experiencing this loss of pressure, brake issues are something that companies have too much to lose In lawsuits if not rectified.
 
#30 ·
If Triumph is replacing the master cylinders with the same part#, one would expect nothing would change. However, if there is a different part # then it points to a redesign to fix a known flaw. In that case you would think a recall is in order. :headscratch
 
#32 ·
I also approached it as a safety issue. Delayed stopping distance in emergency situations due to lack if pressure on the disc and no time to double pump in same situation. I actually also called Triumph and had them document my ticket with these safety concerns to put them on notice for any future liability due to braking issues that were not resolved satisfactorily.
 
#34 · (Edited)
I also approached it as a safety issue. Delayed stopping distance in emergency situations due to lack if pressure on the disc and no time to double pump in same situation. I actually also called Triumph and had them document my ticket with these safety concerns to put them on notice for any future liability due to braking issues that were not resolved satisfactorily.
I'm lazy today, please pass the number to call.
BTW, I got new Brembo pads and I'm waiting on the new caliper seals and pistons. They are on BO from Brembo I will save receipts for a future claim. Pretty sure I will talk to a lawyer after all is done. My bike has 1,982 miles and recently developed this crap, of course after warranty expired.
 

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#36 ·
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